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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on November 7, 2003, at 9:00:13
I've just finished reading "Neurodynamics of Personality", which has easily been the most insightful book I've yet read on the mechanisms behind our actions, thoughts, and feelings. Taking the task as a scientific endeavor, the authors utilize all of the current empirical findings on the brain, and formulate a model of how it is that the brain forms the self. The implications of this model serve as a potentially more useful guide to changing the self than do many current lines of thought.
The book divorces our ideas of self from those of the subconscious, elucidating the primary role of the subconscious as the rote architect and core of the self, redefining our conscious activities as largely a method of dealing with novelty in the environment. The sense of self and authorship of our activities is illustrated to be an ongoing confabulation (rationalization after the fact) for the events generated by the subconscious. This explains why it is so difficult to change old habits, form new ones, and generally understand ourselves with any degree of accuracy. The last chapters of the book provide methods for change based on this understanding of the brain (i.e methods to alter our unconscious, "procedural" memory).
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 10:07:25
In reply to Redefine your understanding of self, posted by Eddie Sylvano on November 7, 2003, at 9:00:13
It sounds very interesting Eddie. Thanks for the recommend. As someone with a lot of borderline traits, I sometimes even wonder if there is a self at all, or just a conglomeration of ever-changing bits and pieces.
Could you give an example or two of the ways that change might be brought about?
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on November 7, 2003, at 16:12:26
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 10:07:25
> Could you give an example or two of the ways that change might be brought about?
------I think that the biggest consideration to be taken away from this book is that we think of our conscious mind (the ongoing commentary in your head, thoughts, etc) as the engine of our minds, and a lot of therapy is directed at this notion. As a poster commented a few posts back, coming to an understanding of our past and the issues that plague us isn't necessarily of any use. Why should this be? If the conscious mind is the arbiter of the self, then why can't we will ourselves better? We can will ourselves to do all sorts of immediate things, but we can't control that which is the essence of who we are. We can't because we're organized that way. At any given point in time, you can only hold, at best, a few thoughts in your head before any more will change your focus. Life, however, requires a lot of procedural knowledge to do even the most mundane things. Typing is a simple example. When you tried to use a keyboard the first time, you had to direct your attention to the location of the keys, the letters on them, the use of the shift key, your fingers' positions, etc, etc. It was a task you did slowly and poorly. After a year or so, however, you can do this same procedure with little need for thought, and with relative efficiency. This is an example of training your subconscious mind. Now, the leap to make is that not only do mundane tasks become automated in our subconscious, so do *all* of the situations we encounter on a daily basis. When you consider how many times you've dealt with people in your life, compared to typing, you gain an appreciation for how many situations you have automatic behaviors for. Just about everything. You don't have to try to remember how to handle situations, your brain just does, and if it does so poorly, you have problems. The brain is most adept at forming these types of memories early in life, and slows fairly quickly after adolescence. This means that most of your automatic responses to situations, interpersonal and mundane, come from your interactions in early childhood. Since you spend the vast majority of this time in interactions with your parents and siblings, these are the key players in your social response repetoire. Hence, poor parenting stamps an indelible mark on you.
Anyway, getting back to change. According to the authors, the only real way to any change is much like the typing example... rote practice. When you've identified an area of interaction that you feel is faulty, you must practice doing things "correctly" each time you encounter the situation. You must do this over and over (and over). The key is in the repitition. Ideally, you'll do this in an enviroment equal to that in which you have problems (i.e. if you always get in arguments with your mom when you're alone together, you must practice doing things differently when you alone with your mom), because all of your automatic responses are tied to the sum of the environment they were formed in. Though it is harder for adults to modify their brains than children, certain things can help facilitate such learning, which the authors loosely define as "arousal." The brain is more impressionable when it is in an active environment. Drugs can also facilitate this process (SSRIs typically. LSD is even more potent at this, but not recommended), as well as trauma (not recommended either). Thus, thinking about your problems while alone does little to help you. You need active engagement (arousal) and practice. Your brain needs lots of exposure to absorb the new behaviors. I wish there was an easier way, but it looks like that's it.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 18:24:39
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » Dinah, posted by Eddie Sylvano on November 7, 2003, at 16:12:26
But I always run into the same roadblock when it comes to changing actions. It only does so much, and then it stops.
I was telling biofeedback guy about my little... whatever... during my preteen years. My world had fallen apart and I acted out big time. I was a mess. Then one day I decided that acting that way was not getting me what I wanted, that my life was worse because of it. And I just quit.
Biofeedback guy asked if I quit feeling angry. And I suppose I didn't. But I completely changed my behavior. Everyone thought I was fine, because to everyone else you are how you act. But I wasn't fine - something that didn't come back to bite me on the rear until my thirties.
So for twenty years I acted as I should, and for most of that time, I even thought as I should. But it didn't change the underlying problem, which began to express itself in different somatic ways, plus OCD.
I'm still that screwed up thirteen year old thirty years later. And changing my behavior and changing my thoughts didn't change that.
Biofeedback guy says that I won't be able to change that until I address the underlying emotions. But dang it! I've been doing that too! And still nothing changes... well, not enough anyway.
Posted by DSCH on November 7, 2003, at 19:28:14
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 10:07:25
> It sounds very interesting Eddie. Thanks for the recommend. As someone with a lot of borderline traits, I sometimes even wonder if there is a self at all, or just a conglomeration of ever-changing bits and pieces.
I wouldn't call it ever-changing so much as somewhat cyclic and dynamic, but yes, there is strong evidence that the human mind is best approached as its own society.
"Society of Mind", by Marvin Minsky
"The Dreams of Reason", by Heinz Pagels
I have yet to read to read the first. The second I have puttered about with here and there and intend to finally read it all together soon. Pagels was a physicist who meet Fritz Perls and found much that he thought was pretty convincing in Gestalt therapy.
I got most aquianted with this personally when I had periods of Paxil withdrawl.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2003, at 13:51:05
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » Dinah, posted by DSCH on November 7, 2003, at 19:28:14
More interesting book recommendations! Thanks. :)
Now I just need to gather my cognitive functioning together enough to read them all.
Posted by platinumbride on November 11, 2003, at 0:21:23
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 18:24:39
I hear you, and I couldn;t have said it better myself!!!!!
GOD THIS SUX!!!!!!!
Posted by platinumbride on November 11, 2003, at 0:23:54
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » Dinah, posted by DSCH on November 7, 2003, at 19:28:14
Ummmmmm can anyone explain Gestault therapy? Is it like punching pillows or something?
Diane
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 0:52:34
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » DSCH, posted by platinumbride on November 11, 2003, at 0:23:54
> Ummmmmm can anyone explain Gestault therapy? Is it like punching pillows or something?
The impression I have is that is kinda like Freudian psychotherapy on acid. :-) The person undergoing therapy may actually be provoked and is encouraged to get up and move about and be physically demonstrative rather than just lie on a couch. I have read that some people have found the tactics resorted to by Perls himself during sessions to be "sadistic".
These are just the impressions I have. As I have stated earlier I have not yet delved too deeply into that book. I have done a complete read of Pagel's other book "The Cosmic Code" and his comments regarding New Age-ish interpretations of quantum mechanics and a sly put-down of Stephen Wolfram ("The Wunderkind has no clothes") lead me to believe he had a degree of skepticism healthy in a scientist. :-)
Posted by platinumbride on November 11, 2003, at 1:07:27
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » platinumbride, posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 0:52:34
How bizzare that it takes a whole school of thought just to reveal that patients may move and gesticulate!!!!!! LOL
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:18:24
In reply to Re: Redefine your understanding of self » DSCH, posted by platinumbride on November 11, 2003, at 1:07:27
> How bizzare that it takes a whole school of thought just to reveal that patients may move and gesticulate!!!!!! LOL
Not so much "may" but rather that they find in them ques that point to directions to take the session if I understand correctly.
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