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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:33:58
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 12:28:23
hi tony
thanx for tha hug. its ok im not living with them now im finally an adult (well trying anyways).
but i have some PTSD symptoms (have had other trauma too) and my friend says that some of my spmtoms are from what my dad did to me.so that IS abuse...?!?!?! because its so hard to see it that way for me i so used to it then. it was scary and everyonce in a while i woudl say "that is child abuse" to him and he would laugh at me but i wnet to the shelter for a week and they sent me home. so i thiought it was nt really abuse because the police new and sent me home anyways. but then i was in the hospital and they wolndnt let me go home because of it but then they send me home anyways.
im not in danger now but i hav eterrible flashbacks nitemares and disscoiaciate sometimes when i am waking up out of them.
so that was really really abuse?
on a scale of 1-10 how bad its tahat because my frined says a 8 but i dont think so.
the only balck eye i ever got was a accident becauwse he threw me across a roorm and i hit the TV but he didnt punch me.
sienna
Posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 12:57:10
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:33:58
How old are you now? How long has the ptsd shown it's face?
I don't know if a 1-10 system works well in this and I would have to actually see it or read the case files, ect...so I can't really say, but if I had to it is above 5 and I think 1 is high...an 8 maybe rape/molestation a 10, death...hard to do it this way.
This all has a lot to do with my being on disability right now. Thank God in Heaven, whichever one you believe in, that I was raised by to great parents. I have been spanked for crossing busy streets and stuff but never even left a red mark and the parent who did it would be crying for it would truly hurt them to more then me, but they were raised in an age where there were no "time outs" yet, so they did what they knew and softly. Usually if I cried I would end up with ice cream within minutes
When I started to work in domestic violence after school it was so foreign to me that I literally flipped. I flipped so bad I have ended up on disability, hate getting it, but do not know if I will ever work in the field. If I do , though, it would be with another population like substance abusers or people like me, just plain screwy like me/us babblers (in the mental health field like I did for a while in the past) or find, like I have been, another job that I can handle.~tony
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 13:15:50
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 12:57:10
hi tony
im sorry it all has affected you so much. i guess it is hard to put in 1-10... i dont know. i wanst raped or molested by my parents but was by others. but mainly phsycisal and emotionally. i am 28 now and have had PTSD symtoms since i was very young like 14 years old. i dont kno wif thats really what i have though. thats what the doctors say is that and schizoaffective disoerder.
im on disability too temporary and it runs out soon.
anyways thanks for writing your experiences. Its relaly helps.
sienna
Posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 13:21:52
In reply to Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 11:43:20
The way I have delt with my childhood is not to put a "label" on it. I once had to ask my brother if he thought our parents were abusive.
The most important thing I learned in therapy is that I am trying to be as honest as I can about how I felt. Regardless if the law or state statutes deem it abuse or not, I had issues with it.
So, my suggestion, take it for what it is worth, is to focus on yourself and how it effected you. Talk to a couselor. Your father scared you and you probably had all kinds of anger that you never expressed. Now is a great time to work your way through it so you can heal.
I wish you all the best.
-Miller
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 13:46:10
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 13:21:52
Hi Miller,
im sorry you had to go through stuff too.
Im not trying to label so much as i wana know wheter he was being illegal or not. like was it in the realm of ok behaviour or not. i have talked it with therapists before but not still got a sense of wheether that is ok behaviour or not. i mean i guess people told me its not ok, but i cant believe it. i mean i thought my dad hung the moon when i was growing up. i did everything i could to get more time with him. and when he was mad at me i hated myself. becuase i thought he was cool. but then i got older and we fought all the time and i tbhought he was horrible. Im just relaly confused and tyrring to straighten stuff out. and i dont know if the tehrpay i had before helps because i talked it into the ground and still feel the same way.
sienna
sienna
Posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 15:05:55
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 13:46:10
Sienna,
I am also sorry for anyone who has had to go through a horrible time with their parents. I do understand what you are talking about regarding labels. I have gone through all of it as well. What is illegal now, would not have been when I was growing up. So I do have some events that would have crossed the legal line back at that time, but I also have events that would have been excessive, but probably ignored.
I didn't really ever talk it all out as you have described doing. I did mention it, but during THIS therapy with a competant therapist, I now see the purpose of seeing it all honestly. I will eventually need to get my anger directed to those who deserve it, not myself. Once I feel the anger towards my parents (I am told and believe) I can start the process of forgiving.
I wanted to grow up and be like my dad. Even though I was his daughter and my brother was older, I had this (irrational) hope that if I was like him, he would love me more and maybe I could get the attention I so craved. It never happened.
Anyway, I would hate to bore you with my ISSUES (capitalized for effect) so I will let you know I am willing to listen and support you through this rough journey of yours. Anytime you would like to post, I will do my best to answer as quickly and honestly as I can.
You are taking a big step just by starting to look at it as other's would. Our own perspective isn't always accurate, to say the least.
I wish you the best. Thank you for posting. I feel better knowing there is someone else struggling as I am. I don't like being alone, no matter how much I push people away. :)
-Miller
Posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:47:17
In reply to Re: abuse » beardedlady, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:20:22
Dear Sienna,
What you've described is ABUSE
Posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:49:37
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:33:58
Dear Sienna,
You wrote, " . . .the only balck eye i ever got was a accident becauwse he threw me across a roorm and i hit the TV but he didnt punch me."
That was NOT an accident. He THREW you across a room.
Posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 16:04:03
In reply to Re: abuse » beardedlady, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:20:22
> is that abuse? or is that dischipline?
Eek. I don't rightly know. I guess it would depend on whether he was drunk or whether you did something to warrant discipline.
beardy
Posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 16:12:07
In reply to Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 11:43:20
> hi everybuddy,
> i have some questions because im trying to figure out what is really abuse...
>
> can anyone tell me what is physical child abuse? id like to belive my father is not a monster. everywhere i look on the net it seems to be that its only very severe like where ou have to hide injuries, but someone sayid my dad is a criminal and i want to know is he really or is my frined blowing it out of proportion?
>
> i dont know
> siennaI don't know exactly where the line is drawn either. Earlier parents used to use harsher punishment that was never questioned, but these days what they did WOULD be considered abuse.
Nowadays, would you call dragging a child up a staircase by their hair (on more than one occasion) child abuse? What about kicking a child when they are uncontrollably screaming to get them to move or to stop screaming? How about locking them in their room with a chamber pot with no dinner, sometimes not letting them out until morning?
It seems like what constitutes physical abuse is when the person doing the abusing has lost control of their own behavior. Somehow it seems like the abusee senses this and knows that it goes well beyond the realm of normal discipline, which is why it hurts them even more emotionally.
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:28:05
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 15:05:55
HI Miller,
i setill want to grow up and be just like my daad except maybe not exaclty like him. But hes smart and people like him and hes sucecesful and all that. i think hes amazing.
It did help for going through thereapy to talk about al lot of it, but i still have that unreal thinking aobu tit like he isnt an abuser or i cant love him. LIke i cant fix it so it must jsut have to be ok because i want to keep a relationship with him and i couldnt do that if he was really a monster. So i have to look at it like he was not being wroong.
How terrible for us . .. i guess all we can do is just try to be better people i know i owouldnt never hurt anybuddy.
I dont like being alone either Miller. Thanks for posting because it hleops me not to feel so alone too.
Sienna
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:29:29
In reply to Re: abuse, posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:47:17
Thanks coral.
is just that it dosesnt feel like it is in som e ways. like i was doing wrong when he hit me so it seem slike he was just doing his job or something. I belive you though, its just so hrad to belive. everyone always thought my family was perfect but it really wansint.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:30:08
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:49:37
i suppose that is tryue coral...
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:31:34
In reply to abuse or discipline » sienna, posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 16:04:03
hi beardedlady,
he wanst drunk and it was always that i didsomething to warrant discipline so but im still not sure that that makes it ok. do you think it dose?sienna
> > is that abuse? or is that dischipline?
>
> Eek. I don't rightly know. I guess it would depend on whether he was drunk or whether you did something to warrant discipline.
>
> beardy
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:32:34
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 16:12:07
That make sense worrygirl, because i did feel horrible about myself after and more than the puncsishment hurt though isometimes i did hurt bad from taht too. but mostly i think i just was very upset emotionslaly.
sienna
Posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 16:50:32
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:28:05
Sienna,
Don't get me wrong, everything my parents have done to me has NEVER made me stop loving them. In fact, in a way, I have learned to love them more. It is unfortunate that they weren't the best parents. It sucks they abused their kids. However, I love them and always will.
One of the hardest things I ever had to learn was that I couldn't "fix" what is/was wrong. It's a hard lesson to swallow. It hurts, but reality is better and more honest to live with.
Sienna, I believe you were abused. That does not mean your dad is a monster. It doesn't mean you can't love him. It doesn't mean you have to decide what he did was illegal or not. In my opinion, itmeans you just need to look honestly at how you felt and how you feel about what happened. Sienna, take care of you and your opinions and feelings will all fall into place. It will hurt, but once you have done it, imagine the security you (we) will have knowing we have matured enough to look at what we had and be able to accept and forgive and move on?
:)
-Miller
Posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » WorryGirl, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:32:34
Hi Sienna,
I really like Miller's post - very well phrased. As hard as it hurts, try to see it that way.
I feel the way Miller does. My parents weren't perfect, but I think that they did the best they knew how. Sure, they regret some of the things they did when life was so stressful for them they didn't know how to handle it. I deal with those issues myself (maybe not in the same way, but it can be hard coping sometimes).I don't know if you were talking about purely physical abuse, or sexual abuse, as well. Either way, it hurts in every way possible.
Sienna, I really feel for you and I do care.
Posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 19:28:08
In reply to Physical abuse » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
Hi there...
Me again. After we wrote back and forth earlier today, I decided to confront one of my "demons."I called one of my ex-employers at an agency called Parent Anonymous. I read your description to her, after she gotten done complaining about my rapid departure (I was looking into an abuse allegation in a crack house and was picked up, thrown against the wall, threatened, tossed down a flight of stairs only to be continually hit with rocks that were picking up and throwing at me while I ran for my car. I went home, filled out my assessment paperwork for the child's well being, dropped it of the next day and refused to ever step foot in the agency again--they now send at least two workers to most homes.
When that was done, Linda, my former supervisor said, something that I hadn't herd in years since she was the one who told me: "if it looks like fish and smells like fish (like something looking 'fishy' it's PROBABLY a fish." I told you my saying was: if I can see it, I need to look into it more.
One poster asked along the line if he were drunk: being DRUNK IS NOT AN EXCUSE!!!!!! I could chant that for hours. IF you are drunk and you rape someone, you still committed the act of rape and so on… Often things happen fast b/c someone does something without thinking and sometimes this is referred to as a "crime of passion" and special circumstance at times are made in courts, but what you describe was an ongoing pattern, not a one time thing... and if he were drunk it still WOULD NOT make a difference.
I think it is great that you can still look at him with admiration, as it shows your ability to forgive.
The main point I want you to remember is that IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT, he was an adult and seems to have been more then strict, he was most likely, in legal terms, an abusive parent.
In the future remember two things for me: 1) It was not my fault and; 2) a saying that existed in NY for a long time--believe the children, meaning if they say it, look into it as they are most often not lying for attention but honestly screaming out for help as best they can.
Bless you, Sienna
~tony
Posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 21:38:58
In reply to Re: abuseseinna » coral, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:30:08
No supposing about it. He was obviously out of control, physically, with you.
Part of the cycle of abuse is feeling like it's your fault and you deserve it. I imagine he did a number on your self-esteem in order for you to buy into the idea that it was no big deal, your fault. It's very often denial on the part of the whole family that makes the wheels run smoothly and the abuse continue.
If you saw an adult do to a child what he did to you, what would you think? Discipline or abuse?
Shar
> i suppose that is tryue coral...
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 23:56:37
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 16:50:32
Hi
I knwo you are right. i am working out how i feel. i thought i had it all worked out, but after this last assualt i am way confused. its just that the damage he did is still there so much and i awlways feel like im weak and cant take care of myself and that its my fault. and that damage is severe, but i dont wnat to be resentful and blame him expecially hes tryingso hard to do goodnow and still makes mistakes but has matured alot. (well he is 59 now)....
i need to get to a place where its ok for me to realize he did somuch damage and still be able to love him and acceept that it wasnt my fault AND that he did the best he could. Its ust confused right now.
sienna
p.s. you are helping a lot thanks so much for caring and writing me.
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 23:58:54
In reply to Physical abuse » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
hi worrygirl
thanks for writing. you are sweet. i pretty much had worked out how i felt and in a pretty mature way. i am great friends with my parents but i still cant get my head around what my dad would do. hed get so mad at me and scare teh crap out of me. im more sad about it then mad but belive me i have had my mad times in life with him. I just dont feel like being mad anymore. I dont want to feel that feeeling. But i dont want to forget what happened either. i just wnat to move on.
ill work it out. Its just contributing to flashbacks i guess and that is not workign out so good.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 0:02:50
In reply to Re: Physical abuse~~sienna, posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 19:28:08
WOw tony,
That was a huge step, thanks so much adn congratulations too. I think it is a fish too. Now just have to determine the size, just kidding. but i guess i need to know how common that is. I thought it happened ot everyone when i was growing up and then when i found out it didnt i was way surpised. now im just confused. it happens a lot i guess, but i just dont understand it. I would never hit anyone.
i dont think its ok if he were drunk, which he never was. But i did do things to push his buttons and thats where im confused. but i guess you are right, it wasnt my fault.
i will remember what you said tony. i appreciate it.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 0:05:32
In reply to Re: abuseseinna » sienna, posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 21:38:58
hi shar,
i would think abuse.... its just so unbelievable...i cant believe he can be like dr. jekyl and mr hyde. i wanna know what he was thinking and if he felt bad at the time. or what? i dont know what i want, but i guess i think i want to understnad how this happened.
sienna
Posted by Miller on April 4, 2003, at 8:09:07
In reply to Hi Miller » Miller, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 23:56:37
Sienna,
The sad part is that you may never know "why" he does it. I am sure he doesn't know himself. That has been a huge part of my therapy as well. The why's aren't always there to be known.
Growing up, I always created my own "why's". Such as being a high-maintenance child or doing bad things, etc. Now that I am starting to see my past a little more clearly, I can't MAKE my parents react the way I want or not want them to.
I know it is a sad, painful, and lonely process, but I am holding onto the hope that once I reach the destination, it will all be worth it.
If I could ask for a perfect resolution, it would be very similar to what I believe yours would be. I want to feel comfortable and close to my parents and secure with myself.
:)
-Miller
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:12:20
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:33:58
Sienna, whether it was "abuse" is a complex question. If you mean legally, is it defined as abuse, well, that will depend on what state you live in. It is possible that it would not have been define as abuse had child welfare professionals investigated, but that only means that it didn't meet the criteria established by that jurisdiction, or that they couldn't determine based on the evidence that it met the criteria. Legal criteria are not the same as what you experienced. For legal definitions, an arbitrary line has to be drawn, but you are talking about experiences that even if they didn't go over that arbitrary legal line, could have been abusive.
If you are trying to explore the issue for yourself in terms of looking back at how you were treated, you don't need to get caught up in the question of legally whether it was abuse. Or even get bogged down on the word abuse. It sounds like very very inappropriate parenting, no matter what you call it!!
From what you describe, your Dad sounded rather out of control. To me, spanking (and I don't believe in spanking, but if I did, this would be my definition) is a carefully applied discipline approach, not something that is done when the parent is out of control with anger.
Are you in therapy? Were you in the day treatment program (forgive me for not remembering if it was you--sorry). I hope you are in treatment, because I am sure you have a lot of feelings about what all that hitting and shoving felt like. Not only physically, and emotionally, in terms of how scary it must have been, how confusing, etc. but also in terms of what kind of modeling your father did in how to solve problems and manage his anger. And how all of that affects your emotional life.
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