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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dreamerz on December 4, 2002, at 20:53:09
In reply to Re: I feel..... » tina, posted by Dreamerz on December 4, 2002, at 20:50:03
I'm also looking for a way to peace
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2002, at 21:28:00
In reply to I feel....., posted by tina on December 4, 2002, at 20:46:35
Tina, are you ok? What is your discovery?
I want to remind you of a beautiful post I read very recently. It was a very wise post, and it was full of peace.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20021106/msgs/32390.html
New years are always so full of possibilities. Pain, certainly, but also moments of laughter and sharing.
I know the last few weeks have been painful for you. Would it help to talk about it?
Dinah
Posted by Ritch on December 4, 2002, at 21:44:34
In reply to I feel....., posted by tina on December 4, 2002, at 20:46:35
Posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 0:57:05
In reply to I feel....., posted by tina on December 4, 2002, at 20:46:35
Tina, your post scares me. I'm worried by what you mean "a discovery that will take *all* pain away". Please let us know what's happening & how you're feeling, okay? Please? It sounds so ominous to me.
Posted by Greg A. on December 5, 2002, at 6:45:08
In reply to I feel....., posted by tina on December 4, 2002, at 20:46:35
Tina,
Please re-read the post Dinah referred to. It did contain some thoughts that helped me get through a period where the pain just would not stop.
But it does ease up. I went for a week where I seemed to have to fight each passing minute and there seemed only one way out of the fight. A friend made me wait. She just said I absolutely could not do this to my daughters; that they would be forever scarred. It made me stop long enough to find that I still want help and still have some shred of hope that I can be helped.
Stay with us and grab on to each person who will listen and talk to them.Greg A.
Posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
In reply to Re: I feel..... » tina, posted by Greg A. on December 5, 2002, at 6:45:08
It's going to be ok. You'll never notice me gone. Thanks for the refresh of my post Dinah, if it helps others, great. See, the more I visit my friend's grave, the more I want to be where she is and that post reminded me of that. IsoM and Greg, you seem to think that I need to "fight and hold on" but why? There's nothing terribly sad about my death because there was nothing terribly contributing about my life. It's like a bug on the road. Do you think the driver of the car that squashes it even notices?
My discovery has elated me beyond what I thought I was capable of. I am so happy about it. It's the perfect plan and I mean p-e-r-f-e-c-t. So, please don't give it another thought. I'm not depressed or suidical. I simply wish to end my corporeal existence and move on to a higher plane. It isn't sad, it's a happy time. I can finally be free and I can't wait.
It's just....time, that's all.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2002, at 9:51:19
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
Tina, I don't think it's true that you haven't contributed during your life. You've contributed here, and you describe having friends, so I assume you've contributed there as well.
But one thing is for sure. After suicide you won't have a chance to contribute. You won't be able to extend yourself to anyone, to reach out, to comfort, to entertain. Those that are left behind will be hurt and confused and angry. And you won't be able to help them either.
I think your previous plan of living in a tribute to your friend, and in a way that would be a tribute to her, was a better one. I hope you choose to live, and fight, and to contribute during the rest of your life.
Please call your therapist or pdoc.
Dinah
Posted by BeardedLady on December 5, 2002, at 10:10:31
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
Tina:
I don't contribute to this board anymore, but I have to this once.
I think you're wonderful. Your humor, your insight, your take on life, your gentleness, your firmness--everything about you makes me feel your goodness.
It is snowing right now. It is the most peaceful time I have seen out my door in a long while. My husband and daughter and I walked the dog to the woods (it's too slippery to drive). The trash in the river is covered with snow so that it looks like it could be just another stone, not a flat tire or an old boot.
I hope you will reconsider your decision. No matter how peaceful it sounds, there are peaceful things about life, too. And death is permanent. There could be so much ahead of you in your life. So much good.
It will be tragedy for all of us should we lose you.
Know that we are here for you. Know that we love you over this mess of wires and lines and let that love reach you.
beardy
Posted by Dreamerz on December 5, 2002, at 10:31:52
In reply to I'm glad I picked today to read. » tina, posted by BeardedLady on December 5, 2002, at 10:10:31
I don't know what to say Tina but I'll try...
I too have had plans and still do and yes I understand that it does bring a joy and relief to know when you will die a sort of rebellion ones own choice against lifes pains and finally peace..
Your post made me cry because I felt like ending pain too.
The plans for me never usually transpire (or I wake up the next day) my mood quickly changes..I'm hoping your mood changes because all of us here will miss you and be very upset.
Please Keep posting
Sorry if my grammar is crappy...
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 5, 2002, at 11:05:57
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
> It's going to be ok. You'll never notice me gone. Thanks for the refresh of my post Dinah, if it helps others, great. See, the more I visit my friend's grave, the more I want to be where she is and that post reminded me of that
------------------------When did you meet your friend, and how long have you known them? There was a point in time where you hadn't yet met them, and weren't even aware of their existance. How do you know that this isn't the same situation you're in now? You'll never meet all the other pepople that you're supposed to meet, and they'll never benefit from your friendship if you close off that possibility. You can't win the lotto if you don't play. Life goes by fast, and death will be here soon enough, regardless. Stay in the storyline.
Posted by Greg A. on December 5, 2002, at 11:06:00
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
Tina,
Don’t fight – just delay. Take comfort in the fact that the ‘out’ is always available to you – tomorrow, the next day, next week. Nothing says you must kill yourself right now. You are right – you can escape. But the decision is irreversible. And you will not feel relief because that is a living feeling. So wait. See what talking with others brings. See what mood change happens in a day or two. Your post made a difference for me so you cannot say that your life means nothing.Greg A.
Posted by Ted on December 5, 2002, at 11:19:22
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
Tina,
> It's going to be ok. You'll never notice me gone.
Hell -- I won't. I'll notice and so will everyone else. You all are the best and most understanding friends I ever had. I will certainly miss you. Guaranteed.
>Thanks for the refresh of my post Dinah
See -- You really do want to hold on. This is just a rough spot. Keep talking with us. We are all here to help. We all have these rough spots and we can always count on the others for help through them. You are no exception.
>See, the more I visit my friend's grave
Well maybe you just need a break from the visits. You need to take time for TINA. Holidays are particularly difficult, I know.
>...I need to "fight and hold on" but why?Because **I** need you and I will be the others do also.
>It's the perfect plan and I mean p-e-r-f-e-c-t.
We all have plans. I have several dozen PERFECT plans. But I try not to think about them. Please don't be selfish -- please stop thinking only about yourself and your plans. Please think about the rest of us.
>It isn't sad, it's a happy time.
What do you mean? It's frightening, horrifying, devastating.
PLEASE STOP IT!
ted
Posted by Miller on December 5, 2002, at 13:14:41
In reply to I feel....., posted by tina on December 4, 2002, at 20:46:35
Tina,
What is this discovery? I am truly NOT being sarcastic. I would love to know a way to feel at peace. Please share.
-Miller
Posted by Dreamerz on December 5, 2002, at 13:39:14
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
I want out ..but I'm waiting to go out on a high.
Posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 13:58:39
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by Dreamerz on December 5, 2002, at 13:39:14
I intend to go out on a high Dreamer. I feel so damned elated right now. I'm totally on a high.
Miller.......being in the canadian shield area of canada, it's damned cold here at night. So, I have decided to dress inappropriately one cold and windy night and take a few OTC sleeping pills and take a walk in the woods. What a perfect way to go, don't you think? I know that frostbite can be painful so that's what the sleeping pills are for. So I'll be unconcious when the painful part comes. On a good cold night, I can freeze to death in under 4 hours. There are so many deserted areas around where I live, it'll be no problem to get it done and I won't be found soon enough to be revived. I feel like I've won the lottery!!
I really do feel extremely happy about this plan. I wish you all wouldn't get so upset. Especially you Ted. It'll all be ok. Have faith.
Posted by Miller on December 5, 2002, at 14:07:10
In reply to Re: Dreamer and Miller, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 13:58:39
Tina,
That is very creative. I am sure I will get in trouble for this, but, my advise would be xxx.
Tina, I am sincerely hoping that you will find the peace you are looking for. I envy you. I pray it will be quick and painless.
-Miller
Posted by gabbix2 on December 5, 2002, at 15:43:44
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting -- STOP IT! - » tina, posted by Ted on December 5, 2002, at 11:19:22
Tina,
I can't add much to what Ted said.
He speaks for me also.Damnit Tina I would miss you..
don't believe it?I remember our very first babble conversation about anxiety, I remember when you said you had a great time out with the "local yokels"
Then it was your grandmothers 80th birthday party after that, you said she was an inspiration, and I took inspiration from that too.You didn't post for a while after that, and not only was I concerned I MISSED YOU.
There.
And NO I didn't cheat and look anything up in the archives, I remember because you made a difference to me. You were one of the first people I met, and why I found this place as such a treasure, never believing before that internet relationships could be so powerful.Tina please
Think about this.
Please.Gabbix2
I'm tempted to post this twice,because I remember you saying its one of the things you'd learned to know and love about me,
but its only true gabbiness if Its not intentional :(
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on December 5, 2002, at 16:05:16
In reply to Re: Dreamer and Miller, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 13:58:39
>take a few OTC sleeping pills and take a walk in the woods. What a perfect way to go, don't you think?
-------------------Actually, I tried that a couple years ago (in Illinois; not quite Canada, but not much different in January). It seemed like a good idea, and it was quite similar to yours. I drank about half a bottle of vodka and took a handful of sominex, drove out to a remote cornfield, headed out into the snow, and found a peaceful little ravine. I wasn't quite as happy about it as you seem to be, but it was pleasant for a while. Very quiet, with gentle swirls of snow blowing over my body. I felt I was where I belonged. The problem was that no manner of pills and alcohol could override my body's intolerance for the cold. I just ended up crying, shivering severely, and in pain from the searing cold. I didn't have the patience to die that way. It wasn't the poetic, quiet end I had hoped for. Anyway, I walked back to my car and drove to a Dunkin Donuts for a coffee. There wasn't any magical renwewal of life or anything, but the coffee was nice, and I came out of my depression before I thought of a better idea. This is either a cautionary tale about suicide, or an exhortation to use more alcohol when trying. That said, I'm glad I can't stomach hard liquor, or this posting wouldn't exist.
Posted by wharfrat on December 5, 2002, at 16:09:33
In reply to Re: Dreamer and Miller, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 13:58:39
> I intend to go out on a high Dreamer. I feel so damned elated right now. I'm totally on a high.
> Miller.......being in the canadian shield area of canada, it's damned cold here at night. So, I have decided to dress inappropriately one cold and windy night and take a few OTC sleeping pills and take a walk in the woods. What a perfect way to go, don't you think? I know that frostbite can be painful so that's what the sleeping pills are for. So I'll be unconcious when the painful part comes. On a good cold night, I can freeze to death in under 4 hours. There are so many deserted areas around where I live, it'll be no problem to get it done and I won't be found soon enough to be revived. I feel like I've won the lottery!!
> I really do feel extremely happy about this plan. I wish you all wouldn't get so upset. Especially you Ted. It'll all be ok. Have faith.Tina,
I'm sorry but I don't think your plan sounds like a good one. Sounds like a real horrible way to go. I had an old aunt that made a wrong turn to her house out in the country one very cold night,slid off in a ditch, got out of her car & got lost in the dark and finally froze to death after battling brush and falling off of a bluff and breaking a leg. Suppose the sleeping pills don't work, suppose you change your mind after being severely frost bitten. Are there people living close enough that might actually pop in and stop you from a more conventional ending? In any event, you told Ted to have faith. I think you should have a little faith. It is not intended to be YOUR decision when your journey is finished here anyway. Stick with it. When your intended time comes, maybe it will be a little bit more peaceful and serene (did I spell that right?) than freezing to death and leaving your mortal remains to the Bears and Buzzards.May God bless you & help you make the RIGHT decision.
Peace,
Wharfrat
Posted by mashogr8 on December 5, 2002, at 20:39:26
In reply to Re: Dreamer and Miller » tina, posted by wharfrat on December 5, 2002, at 16:09:33
Please don't. It's important for us and, in time, for you too.
I feel very sad thinkng about you and wishing there was some way to make life simple and happy. I can't.
But please don't.
peace,
Ma
Posted by Phil on December 5, 2002, at 21:40:35
In reply to Re: Dreamer and Miller » tina, posted by wharfrat on December 5, 2002, at 16:09:33
Next time, I'll get to block you and I love that part of my job.
Dr Block : )
tina, Dying, any way you choose, is not a good idea. Shit, move to Florida. Okay, anyway, I was told about a movie about a guy that really wanted to kill himself. If someone here has seen it, some facts could be missing or whatever.***Disclaimer
This guy was obese, had high blood pressure..wanted his death to look natural so his family would get the insurance money. Decides to start a highly vigorous running program. He's pushing as hard as he can to have a heart attack. Didn't work so he tried it the next day and the day after that,etc. Starts losing weight and feeling really good. Goes on to run races, never felt better. I have no idea if it's a true story. I've also forgotten why I even brought it up.The best is yet to come tina, just give yourself time. I tell myself that suicide is not an option, end of story..next. I made myself commit to it because then, I need to be thinking about how to live. Plus! Do spirits get laid...how? What's the afterlife have that beats sex, drugs and rock n roll?
Don't be too quick to leave. There's ice cream to be eaten, french fries, coke floats. Austin Powers...talk to me babaaay.
Before the angels sent you to earth, you made a deal. You would suffer more than most in life but get much better and stable and then go on to carry the message that you can make it. But once you came to earth, all memory of the deal is erased.
We all need your help and we all want to help you but it's your call. As a friend of yours I ask you to reconsider and I pray that you realize that we here are all concerned.
hope something made sense,
Hope to hear from you...Phil
Posted by Racer on December 5, 2002, at 22:17:43
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
You know, I don't quite know how to write what I want to express. Since all those things that make the difference face to face don't work in print, please forgive me if it sounds as if I'm not taking anything you said seriously. I am taking it quite seriously.
What I'm about to write sounds harsh, and maybe I really do mean to sound that way, but I won't say it's for your own good. I hope it is, but can't say that anything in my brain actually qualifies. Besides, what could be more patronizing and insulting that telling someone what's right for him or her? Always pissed the hell out of me, eh?
> It's going to be ok. You'll never notice me gone.
{{deep breath}} How do you know? That's like someone saying, "This is for your own good" or "this will hurt me more than it hurts you." It is patronizing, and it is demeaning and it is too patently absurd to let stand.
Back when I was stuck in the horrible depression of a few years back, this board was one of the only things that kept me from jumping off. Isn't that one of the most pathetic things you've ever heard in your life? There was no real person in the real world that could help me hold on. The only thing that I could hang on to during that time was a lot of writing on a computer screen. Hell, maybe Dr Bob was just some psycho with a lot of imaginary patients he made up names and stories for! Maybe I was the only other real person who ever even saw the page. Pathetic? You bet your sweet aunt fanny! True? Yes, it is true.
Don't think that your absence wouldn't be noticed. Not in the sense of "the Lamb notices each crushed petal" but in the sense of "there are some people out there who consider you a vital part of their lifeline and you might just be healthier than they are."
> See, the more I visit my friend's grave, the more I want to be where she is .What if your friend is nowhere? You don't say, "gee, I don't want to exist" you say, "I want to be where she is." That's still a positive: there is somewhere you want to be. The problem isn't that you want to be where your friend is, it's that you want your friend to be where you are. That's not an option.
Would your friend want you to be dead just because she moved to another country? Would your friend have killed you -- murdered you -- before she left?
She doesn't want you to follow her.
> IsoM and Greg, you seem to think that I need to "fight and hold on" but why?
How about looking at it this way: why are you so special that you don't have to stand in line at the supermarket, but can just walk out the door and have someone else do it for you?
Years ago, during an earlier depression, I said a lot of the same things you're saying, and my erstwhile best friend said it to me like that, made me look at the same issue from a much more trivial perspective, and it actually started my recovery from that episode. It's offered here in hopes that it might help you at some point in some way.
Life sucks in a lot of ways, big and small. Did I ever tell you about my 30th birthday, when I woke up with diarrhea and the toilet overflowed??? That was only the start of a day that was so bad I have to laugh about it now, but there was not one thing that didn't suck (unless you count that I'd have something to make a joke or a point about later in life.) There is no question that life sometimes feels so difficult that it's not worth the trouble. Key words in that sentence: FEELS DIFFICULT. Read the sentence again. Life feels difficult?
Try writing a similar sentence using the same words and concepts with a more trivial topic. "Feeding my cat felt too difficult last year, so I just didn't do it." "It felt a little difficult to go to collect my Nobel prize, so I just skipped it." "It felt too difficult to go to the bathroom this morning, so I gave up and didn't bother to do it."
So, don't fight it out or hang on if you don't want to bother, but please be clear about what and why and who.
>There's nothing terribly sad about my death because there was nothing terribly contributing about my life.
Excuse me? If you really mean to go, don't you dare to presume to dictate our emotional response to your absence! You will abdicate forever any right to dictate our responses to your absence. If it throws anyone else over the edge, and you kill off every member of this board, you can't think you can say from anywhere "hey, I didn't mean it! I didn't think anyone would notice."
I heard something at an AA meeting once. A guy told the group that his sponsor cheered him in a big way when he said he wanted to kill his boss: "that's the first time you've ever turned your attention to anyone besides yourself!" Here's an assignment for your mental health: list five people whom you feel wounded by over the entire course of your entire life no matter how insignifcant you think it is, and then create a suitable vengeance for their crimes. When you're done, you may feel a bit better, you may not, but you may find yourself with a formula for a successful murder mystery...
Listen, I have to go, I've been typing this for far too long (type too slow, oh well), and I won't expect that it's made any difference to you. I hope, though, that as you read it and tell yourself that I have no right to type any of these things at you, or to presume to understand anything you're experiencing, or whatever does go through your head -- I hope you realize that you are focussing outside yourself for a moment. That maybe you do feel a little better for it.
And I hope you're looking forward to putting me in my place!
Posted by IsoM on December 6, 2002, at 1:09:07
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting » tina, posted by Racer on December 5, 2002, at 22:17:43
Thank you, Racer. I do hope Tina reads your message. I do hope she's still around. And I hope she reads this too.
Tina, Racer's said what I felt & even what I didn't know I was feeling until I read it. I think Racer may have said it best for all of us. Tough talk maybe, but very true & meant with great kindness & concern for you - even anguish for what you plan to do.
I've had two horrible periods in my life when I wished I were dead. Rather than killing myself, I desperately wished for non-existence. I'm fine now, in fact, feel pretty good. BUT every time I get sick in some way (the last 3-4 days of bad migraine & wash-out), that deja-vu feeling of utter despair & blackness come back by association. In a sense, I'm glad it does as it's a constant reminder how bleak, black & empty my life felt. It ensures I'll never lose sight of what it feels like for others.
I almost wanted to pull back & not say anything else about your plans. I've "felt" the peace of accepting death. Maybe my feel was different than yours, but I think I understand. And it was from that perspective that I didn't want you to go. It was from realising the enormity of what others would feel like if I was dead & feeling how special life is now to me.
Maybe it's naive, but I do believe that most will find that too - hopefully sooner than later. I hope you're still here to read this, Tina. Please let us know.
Posted by Racer on December 6, 2002, at 1:29:21
In reply to Re: I feel.....stop fretting, posted by tina on December 5, 2002, at 8:48:56
Tina, I just read something I think you should read before you make any final decision:
"last saturday I lost a friend to mental illness. Wednesday was her funeral and it was beautiful and perfect.
I took friday off and went to the cemetery to 'talk' with her. I brought her yellow and white roses. It was cold and sleet fell around me but I felt
strangely good.....tranquil. She is buried in the shade of a very large oak tree and as I sat by her side, I found I wasn't at all cold. The breeze stirred the
branches of that great oak and leaves cascaded softly down almost reaching the earth but were whisked away again by a sudden change in the wind. I
talked to her and sat with her for over an hour. I felt more connected to her now that she's gone than when she was here......that's strange isn't it?
I have been reflecting on my own life since her passing and I have come to the conclusion that I will not die that way. This illness will not beat me. I may
not have the rosey fairytale but I will find some purpose, some fulfillment...somewhere, somehow. That is the gift she has given me.Living with purpose will be my gift to her.
With immense gratitude......thank you K.
I will never forget......."
What can anyone else add to that?
Posted by Phil on December 6, 2002, at 8:38:14
In reply to Last Word on this -- from the real expert » tina, posted by Racer on December 6, 2002, at 1:29:21
Tina, Suicides happen in clusters of people. One kills themself and there's usually a few more to follow.
You are still grieving two suicides and you are having a normal reaction. Was anyone you know happy to see them go? Of course not.
It's the worst time of the year for all of us. There's been many times I've wanted to die in my life and I look back and, even though my life is not very exciting, I've learned gleen happiness from the little things. Not happiness but just appreciation.
I have no magic words and don't think my ego would lead me to believe that I could save your life.
I think it's Donne's quote that say's because we are all a part of mankind, don't ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. I believe we are all interconnected spiritually. But I'm not counting on a glorious afterlife-no human KNOWS there is an afterlife. It could suck or it could be, just dead.
I'd like to think I'll see everyone in heaven, so why the heck don't I want to see them when they're alive. Death doesn't cure all.
It devastates all.
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