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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ELA on January 8, 2002, at 14:35:14
In reply to fear of depression, posted by pedr on January 8, 2002, at 9:06:53
Hi Pete,
I've recently been put on antidepressants following a serious illness which left me shocked, withdrawn and unable to cope with daily life again. I was very sceptical at first thinking that crying all the time for no reason and withdrawing into myself wasn't "proper" depression - ie, suicidal thoughts, no support/friends/family etc.
However, I am learning that this is not the case and that even though my depression is relatively mild compared to many others, it is by no means not a real illness. Everyone experiences things in different ways and depression is no different.
I'm lucky that I've got great mates around me so I'm starting to get through this. I am only 20 and nowhere remotely near an expert but I reckon that a good place to start for you would be to remember that we are in dividual and, therefore, our reactions to and experiences of things are often very different. This site is brilliant, I can't begin to say how much it has helped me and I've only been using it for about a week!
The way I think of it is that if I want to run around laughing insanely one day and having a good time then I can and it doesn't mean that I'm not depressed anymore. And also that just because I'm not sitting in dark rooms with dark thoughts doesn't mean that I'm not depressed either.
Good luck, hope it gets easier for you.
Emma.
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 19:07:45
In reply to fear of depression, posted by pedr on January 8, 2002, at 9:06:53
I had a bad case of anxiety about depression when I first starting feeling better after a horrible episode of depression. I still fear it, but not so much, and am able to experience occasional depression or bad day or low mood without going into a panic about losing all the remission and becoming depressed again forever.
It has taken time and therapy.
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 19:11:45
In reply to Re: fear of depression - OK!, posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 11:25:09
I think that boredom is a problem if one tends to see it as about themselves, as opposed to seeing it as situational and separate from themselves.
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 19:23:27
In reply to Re: fear of depression » pedr, posted by ELA on January 8, 2002, at 14:35:14
I think that cognitive approaches in therapy can really help with this, BUT, I think that this needs longer term therapy than is sometimes offered with cognitive therapy. I have been in therapy for years, and the cbt strategies do help, but wouldn't have if I were only in treatment for short term therapy. My therapist uses CBT approaches, but not exclusively.
I think my learning to deal with the fear of depression also meant learning to accept that there are some bad days, low moods, etc.
AND, to learn to understand the causes of some low moods, bad days. For example, if I haven't gotten myself to sleep at a reasonable hour, I am very grumpy in the morning. When I was in that fearful-of-depression phase, those grumpy moods really scared me--felt like the deprssion was returning. But slowly I am learning to draw different conclusions--I ask myself, ok, I'm grumpy, what is going on? Did I get enough sleep? is there some other reason, etc.? What can I do about it? Does it have to mean that the depression is back?
And to realize that people who arent' depressed have grumpy moods and bad days, too.
The panic about becoming depressied was potentially pretty paralizing for me. My therapist helped a lot--with the strategies I mentioned, but also with helping me to learn to not see it as so black and white, all or nothing--ie, depressed or not depressed.
Posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 19:47:43
In reply to Re: fear of depression, posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 19:07:45
It's taken me close to 6 years to get to a point where I talk about my major depression in past tenses, and where I don't cry with terror each time I talk about it. Man, depression is a test of patience!
> I had a bad case of anxiety about depression when I first starting feeling better after a horrible episode of depression. I still fear it, but not so much, and am able to experience occasional depression or bad day or low mood without going into a panic about losing all the remission and becoming depressed again forever.
>
> It has taken time and therapy.
Posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 19:54:18
In reply to Re: fear of depression, posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 19:23:27
I know what you mean. I am taking meds for dysthymia, and 2 days ago I didn't feel good. I wanted to stop taking the meds or change to another, I was scared because I felt better with dysthymia but without the meds, and so I felt I needed to change something... It took a day for me to realize it was PMS and in 3 days everything would be OK. We are too aware of our moods perhaps after all this?
I also had longer term therapy, mixed with CBT. I may go back later on in my life, but for now I cannot stand telling my life to another human being who takes notes while I talk. It helped a lot, but it's time for me to live and stop talking and thinking about perhaps finally living some day.
> I think that cognitive approaches in therapy can really help with this, BUT, I think that this needs longer term therapy than is sometimes offered with cognitive therapy. I have been in therapy for years, and the cbt strategies do help, but wouldn't have if I were only in treatment for short term therapy. My therapist uses CBT approaches, but not exclusively.
>
> I think my learning to deal with the fear of depression also meant learning to accept that there are some bad days, low moods, etc.
>
> AND, to learn to understand the causes of some low moods, bad days. For example, if I haven't gotten myself to sleep at a reasonable hour, I am very grumpy in the morning. When I was in that fearful-of-depression phase, those grumpy moods really scared me--felt like the deprssion was returning. But slowly I am learning to draw different conclusions--I ask myself, ok, I'm grumpy, what is going on? Did I get enough sleep? is there some other reason, etc.? What can I do about it? Does it have to mean that the depression is back?
>
> And to realize that people who arent' depressed have grumpy moods and bad days, too.
>
> The panic about becoming depressied was potentially pretty paralizing for me. My therapist helped a lot--with the strategies I mentioned, but also with helping me to learn to not see it as so black and white, all or nothing--ie, depressed or not depressed.
Posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 20:06:21
In reply to Re: fear of depression » Noa, posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 19:54:18
Takes notes while you talk????
After the first few interviews, I would be really turned off if my therapist took notes!
Glad you are feeling better.
Posted by sid on January 8, 2002, at 20:11:38
In reply to Re: fear of depression » sid, posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 20:06:21
I must say I'd have to do it too. Seeing 5+ people a day, 5 days a week, I'd forget who said what when. So it was not a problem for me. But I've enough of it for now !
> Takes notes while you talk????
>
> After the first few interviews, I would be really turned off if my therapist took notes!
>
> Glad you are feeling better.
Posted by Dinah on January 8, 2002, at 20:19:19
In reply to Re: fear of depression » sid, posted by Noa on January 8, 2002, at 20:06:21
> Takes notes while you talk????
>
> After the first few interviews, I would be really turned off if my therapist took notes!
>
You have a therapist who doesn't take notes?!! Lucky you. It's always distracting when they pick up that pen. Why did they choose to write THAT down?
Posted by Krazy Kat on January 9, 2002, at 6:53:10
In reply to fear of depression, posted by pedr on January 8, 2002, at 9:06:53
Yes, absolutely. There is a fear about getting better - life changes, it doesn't necessarily change completely for the better. And there is a fear about falling into yet another depression - I just discussed this with my husband last night.
I think you could benefit from a stabilizer - it not only helped my mood, but helped with my OCD, which this could be a mild form of. Basically, it helped my thought patterns be more literal, gave me more control. Maybe even a small amount...
Otherwise, as Noa says, it takes time, and, for me, the realization that I'm never going to completely escape depression (or mania), but I can learn how to recognize it better, and handle it better.
- KK
Posted by pedr on January 9, 2002, at 8:33:24
In reply to Re: fear of depression » pedr, posted by Krazy Kat on January 9, 2002, at 6:53:10
> Yes, absolutely. There is a fear about getting better - life changes, it doesn't necessarily change completely for the better. And there is a fear about falling into yet another depression - I just discussed this with my husband last night.
>
> I think you could benefit from a stabilizer - it not only helped my mood, but helped with my OCD, which this could be a mild form of. Basically, it helped my thought patterns be more literal, gave me more control. Maybe even a small amount...
>
> Otherwise, as Noa says, it takes time, and, for me, the realization that I'm never going to completely escape depression (or mania), but I can learn how to recognize it better, and handle it better.
>
> - KKThanks everyone for your input. I think mist is correct that getting out and about can help when you're feeling really depressed. The problem with me is that my brain turns this helpful suggestion [it's good to get out and about when low] into a massive, terrifying threat [I must go out or I will become suicidally depressed]. It's really demoralizing because this threat [and other similar ones] often makes my free time difficult to bear.
Sid, I really envy you in that you can look back on depression in that fashion, that is a position I often dream of. You're living evidence that it can be done. I bet it took a tremendous amount of effort, stamina and tolerance - good work fella.
Kat, my diagnosis is chronic major depression - I don't have any manic episodes. So as far as I'm aware, a mood stabilizer probably isn't appropriate. That's not to say I won't try mood stabilizers if I'm prescribed them, I'll try anything that may help.
Thanks again all,
pete.
Posted by bonnie_ann on January 9, 2002, at 15:47:44
In reply to Re: fear of depression » pedr, posted by Krazy Kat on January 9, 2002, at 6:53:10
I don't know for sure that I had a depressive episode or not. But I do fear returning to my previous state of anxiety. I am very aware of my body and PMS has gotten worse than better on meds.
Or at least I blame it on that - I have no idea.
We all have bad days, bad thoughts, bad feelings.
Everyone has them - they just let them flow in and out and don't suck them in and try to figure out every possible way that this has to be a return of their depression/anxiety. They just come and go- it's your brain that's telling you it's something to fear, we all know there's nothing to fear. You can choose to listen to it or you can say no, not today, I'm just having a bad day. I'll be feel better later or tommorrow or in a couple of days. It's Ok and I'm Ok.
Bonnie
Posted by Mair on January 9, 2002, at 16:00:32
In reply to Re: fear of depression, posted by pedr on January 9, 2002, at 8:33:24
Pete - I, too, suffer from chronic major depression and was recently started on a mood stabiliser. I think they are now used with unipolar depressions as well. I can't say I've been on it long enough to know whether it's making a difference.
Alot of my depression has been guilt about having depression and self criticism for not getting over it more quickly. It's led to this theory of mine, that my therapist keeps trying to debunk, that I perpetuate my own depressions - somehow if I really wanted to and really tried to, I could get rid of it. Sometimes I've even wondered if I'm like those misguided girls in colonial Salem - so bored that depression for me is like witchcraft was for them.
If anything has perpetuated my depression it's fear of taking risks or fear of the unknown. I don't quit my job because my depression and its anxiety component make me feel like I can't do anything else or wouldn't be able to convince anyone to hire me, but staying in my job perpetuates my depression because it's filled with depression triggers. Additionally, although i live with some level of depression all the time, the fear of sinking into a really deep one is always there.
As for taking notes - my therapist never did and I was always amazed by her ability to remember things. However i did go through a really awful period almost a year ago, the result of which is that she started wanting to see me twice a week and she started taking copious notes. Since she's writing all the time, i don't wonder so much about why she's choosing to write about one thing or the other. I think mostly she's writing what i say so she can throw it back up at me later. It can be disconderting but i'm pretty used to it now.
Mair
Posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 17:08:51
In reply to Re: fear of depression » Noa, posted by Dinah on January 8, 2002, at 20:19:19
I used to ask: why us THAT more interesting than my previous sentence? How about I take notes when YOU talk?
I had several (did a few 12-weeks CBT therapies plus longer-term), and only 1 of them did not take notes. He could remember too, that was impressive.
> > Takes notes while you talk????
> >
> > After the first few interviews, I would be really turned off if my therapist took notes!
> >
> You have a therapist who doesn't take notes?!! Lucky you. It's always distracting when they pick up that pen. Why did they choose to write THAT down?
Posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 17:17:57
In reply to Re: fear of depression, posted by pedr on January 9, 2002, at 8:33:24
> Sid, I really envy you in that you can look back on depression in that fashion, that is a position I often dream of. You're living evidence that it can be done. I bet it took a tremendous amount of effort, stamina and tolerance - good work fella.
I am very happy to be at this point. I still have to deal with dysthymia, but I never knew better so far in my adult life, so it's nothing like major depression. It took several years and I was out of patience many times, finding it unfair that I had to make so many efforts just to be able to get up in the morning and not be disappointed to do so. I used to wake up and think: oh no, not another day! Many times I was desperate and thought I'd never get out of this spiral, but somehow, I did. It has been very hard, so I do understand when I read about impatience, helplessness, etc. And I feel for you all. I hope we all get back to some more normal state some day, including getting rid of dysthymia in my case. That would be something. The unfair thing is that our lives are somewhat consumed by this disease; we put lots of time, money and efforts on this, while we could be happier and more productive doing other things. That REALLY sucks. Also, one thing I have not made my peace with yet, is that I wasted my 20's to depression. It's a time of life biolding, experiences, etc., it's gone, and I could not have a normal life. I got a PhD out of this part of my life, but that's it, I didn't have much fun. Better than nothing at all, but I'm somewhat embittered by the fact. Anyway, I hope my future is better, that's all I can hope for.
Wew. There's something off my chest.
Posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 17:19:16
In reply to Re: fear of depression, posted by bonnie_ann on January 9, 2002, at 15:47:44
If you're in your early 30's. PMS might have gone worse without the meds. For women with PMS, 30-40 years old seems to be the worse.
> I don't know for sure that I had a depressive episode or not. But I do fear returning to my previous state of anxiety. I am very aware of my body and PMS has gotten worse than better on meds.
> Or at least I blame it on that - I have no idea.
> We all have bad days, bad thoughts, bad feelings.
> Everyone has them - they just let them flow in and out and don't suck them in and try to figure out every possible way that this has to be a return of their depression/anxiety. They just come and go- it's your brain that's telling you it's something to fear, we all know there's nothing to fear. You can choose to listen to it or you can say no, not today, I'm just having a bad day. I'll be feel better later or tommorrow or in a couple of days. It's Ok and I'm Ok.
> Bonnie
Posted by Anna Laura on January 10, 2002, at 0:26:14
In reply to fear of depression, posted by pedr on January 8, 2002, at 9:06:53
> I hold irrational distorted beliefs about becoming severely depressed which my psychologist believes are a fundamental obstruction to me getting better. I often believe that should I be tired, hungover, hungry, bored or have nothing planned to do, I will get severe, life-threatening depression.
>Pedro, are you taking meds ?
I've had CBT for two years but it helped just a little. Later on i found out that the medication i was taking (imipramine, brand name Tofranil)
caused cognitive impairment. Took me some time to get rid of that : the effect persisted even when i quit the drug. The cognitive/intellectual clouding impaired self-interrogation and stress managing strategies; i thought it was my fault and felt guilty because of that.
May be you should look for the right drug FIRST of all. Your fear might be a symptom of residual depression also as well as obsessive thinking somehow related with anxiety. If you honestly feel you can't control it, you should get drug treatment first. If i were you i'd look for a drug which doesn't cause cognitive impairment.Good luck
Anna Laura
Posted by sid on January 10, 2002, at 0:37:51
In reply to Re: fear of depression: drug treatment needed?, posted by Anna Laura on January 10, 2002, at 0:26:14
Anna Laura, how do you know which drug causes cognitive impairment ? Is it written on the RxList web site for example? I am not sure what to look for, after reading your message.
> > I hold irrational distorted beliefs about becoming severely depressed which my psychologist believes are a fundamental obstruction to me getting better. I often believe that should I be tired, hungover, hungry, bored or have nothing planned to do, I will get severe, life-threatening depression.
> >
>
> Pedro, are you taking meds ?
> I've had CBT for two years but it helped just a little. Later on i found out that the medication i was taking (imipramine, brand name Tofranil)
> caused cognitive impairment. Took me some time to get rid of that : the effect persisted even when i quit the drug. The cognitive/intellectual clouding impaired self-interrogation and stress managing strategies; i thought it was my fault and felt guilty because of that.
> May be you should look for the right drug FIRST of all. Your fear might be a symptom of residual depression also as well as obsessive thinking somehow related with anxiety. If you honestly feel you can't control it, you should get drug treatment first. If i were you i'd look for a drug which doesn't cause cognitive impairment.
>
> Good luck
>
> Anna Laura
Posted by Anna Laura on January 10, 2002, at 3:16:12
In reply to Re: fear of depression: drug treatment needed? » Anna Laura, posted by sid on January 10, 2002, at 0:37:51
> Anna Laura, how do you know which drug causes cognitive impairment ? Is it written on the RxList web site for example? I am not sure what to look for, after reading your message.
I read it on www.biopsychiatry.com. (look on the good drug guide the tca paragraph).
I've sent a mail to BLTSC research (which is connected to biopsychiatry.com) and they answered me saying that my cognitive dulling might have been caused by imipramine.
This suggestion has been further confirmed by a psychopharmacologist who visited me last Spring. The problem with imipramine (which helped me a great deal with major depression but clouded my intellectual functions ) is that its chemical structure closely resembles the structure of traditional neuroleptics (antypsychotics) such as cloropromazine.
This nasty side-effect might be intertwined with residual depression symptoms. I personally got stuck in that situation for years.
Posted by sid on January 10, 2002, at 6:52:20
In reply to Re: fear of depression: drug treatment: Sid, posted by Anna Laura on January 10, 2002, at 3:16:12
Sorry to hear that it lasted so long. Thanks for the info.
> > Anna Laura, how do you know which drug causes cognitive impairment ? Is it written on the RxList web site for example? I am not sure what to look for, after reading your message.
>
>
> I read it on www.biopsychiatry.com. (look on the good drug guide the tca paragraph).
> I've sent a mail to BLTSC research (which is connected to biopsychiatry.com) and they answered me saying that my cognitive dulling might have been caused by imipramine.
> This suggestion has been further confirmed by a psychopharmacologist who visited me last Spring. The problem with imipramine (which helped me a great deal with major depression but clouded my intellectual functions ) is that its chemical structure closely resembles the structure of traditional neuroleptics (antypsychotics) such as cloropromazine.
> This nasty side-effect might be intertwined with residual depression symptoms. I personally got stuck in that situation for years.
Posted by pedr on January 10, 2002, at 7:06:13
In reply to Re: fear of depression, posted by Mair on January 9, 2002, at 16:00:32
> Pete - I, too, suffer from chronic major depression and was recently started on a mood stabiliser. I think they are now used with unipolar depressions as well. I can't say I've been on it long enough to know whether it's making a difference.
>
> Alot of my depression has been guilt about having depression and self criticism for not getting over it more quickly. It's led to this theory of mine, that my therapist keeps trying to debunk, that I perpetuate my own depressions - somehow if I really wanted to and really tried to, I could get rid of it. Sometimes I've even wondered if I'm like those misguided girls in colonial Salem - so bored that depression for me is like witchcraft was for them.
>
> If anything has perpetuated my depression it's fear of taking risks or fear of the unknown. I don't quit my job because my depression and its anxiety component make me feel like I can't do anything else or wouldn't be able to convince anyone to hire me, but staying in my job perpetuates my depression because it's filled with depression triggers. Additionally, although i live with some level of depression all the time, the fear of sinking into a really deep one is always there.
>
> As for taking notes - my therapist never did and I was always amazed by her ability to remember things. However i did go through a really awful period almost a year ago, the result of which is that she started wanting to see me twice a week and she started taking copious notes. Since she's writing all the time, i don't wonder so much about why she's choosing to write about one thing or the other. I think mostly she's writing what i say so she can throw it back up at me later. It can be disconderting but i'm pretty used to it now.
>
> MairMair,
your situation sounds very similar to mine. Both therapists I see now believe I should stop paying such attention to thoughts and moods and focus more externally. I strongly disagree with both of them as for 5 years I purposefully ignored my moods and beliefs and quite frankly I don't know how I got through those years.I know what you mean about triggers at work. Work basically means lots of painful anxiety and depression for me [e.g. I can't do this work therefore I am worthless, this work is boring and will get me depressed, I must do this work faster and so on] but the alternative is to stay at home. Staying at home would likely invoke my convictions that being bored or too housebound will drive me to the depths of depression. "Between a rock and a hard place" is the expression I believe.
As for self criticism for not recovering more quickly, it generally depends on how I'm feeling. When low I think that there must be something intrinsically wrong with me - I've had all this therapy and drugs, put *so much* effort into challenging unhealthy beliefs and yet I still end up in a bad way most days. When feeling better, I can see that I have depression which is a mental illness and it's not fair to persecute someone for not making much progress when they're mentally ill.
I'll ask my psychiatrist about mood stabilizers when I next see him, could be worth a pop.
Thanks and best wishes,
pete.p.s. Mair is a good Welsh name, any Welsh connections?
Posted by pedr on January 10, 2002, at 7:23:17
In reply to Re: fear of depression: drug treatment needed?, posted by Anna Laura on January 10, 2002, at 0:26:14
> > I hold irrational distorted beliefs about becoming severely depressed which my psychologist believes are a fundamental obstruction to me getting better. I often believe that should I be tired, hungover, hungry, bored or have nothing planned to do, I will get severe, life-threatening depression.
> >
>
> Pedro, are you taking meds ?
> I've had CBT for two years but it helped just a little. Later on i found out that the medication i was taking (imipramine, brand name Tofranil)
> caused cognitive impairment. Took me some time to get rid of that : the effect persisted even when i quit the drug. The cognitive/intellectual clouding impaired self-interrogation and stress managing strategies; i thought it was my fault and felt guilty because of that.
> May be you should look for the right drug FIRST of all. Your fear might be a symptom of residual depression also as well as obsessive thinking somehow related with anxiety. If you honestly feel you can't control it, you should get drug treatment first. If i were you i'd look for a drug which doesn't cause cognitive impairment.
>
> Good luck
>
> Anna LauraHi Anna Laura,
I'm currently on Surmontil [Trimipramine] and Reboxetine [Edronax]. I'm reasonably certain that I've incurred cognitive impairment since taking these drugs. Having said that, before taking them I was in a perpetual state of terror which makes "fuzzy thinking" and severely impaired memory a very small price to pay.
It's an interesting point that you have raised that the cognitive impairment may actually reduce someone's capacity to implement CBT techniques. I do often find myself repeating CBT and REBT phrases and beliefs time and time again, only to foget them or simply not be able to understand them.
I am currently weaning off the Surmontil [2 weeks to go] and will then start on Wellbutrin. My fingers, arms, legs, toes and eyes are crossed that this'll help me feel better. A bonus would be if it helps me think more clearly too.Thanks for the post,
pete.
Posted by Noa on January 10, 2002, at 7:49:13
In reply to Re: fear of depression » pedr, posted by sid on January 9, 2002, at 17:17:57
Hey, Sid, I think that managing to get a PhD while you are struggling with depression is a pretty amazing accomplishment!!!
Not having fun--well you needed to focus what energy you had, probably, on your work.
I, too, sometimes grieve for the lost years, lost decades. My teens and early 20s were very difficult. By mid to late 20s it was better (due to therapy)and then my early thirties were really looking up--I felt more in charge of myself and my life, had more self confidence, knew who I was. Then the depression hit really hard again, and I basically lost most of my 30s to it. I did work and developed my work life ok, but it gwas a major struggle, and I was held back by the depression in terms of career advancement, not to mention personal life.
I may have lost my chance to have a kid, I don't know. But I have to just look forward now to what is possible.
Posted by sid on January 10, 2002, at 10:24:17
In reply to Re: fear of depression » sid, posted by Noa on January 10, 2002, at 7:49:13
Thanks for sharing your experience.
About losing the chance of having a kid: I'll be there soon... unless things change drastically in my personal life.
Professionnaly I am held back as things take more time than they would otherwise. These days it's better, but at times I really felt stupid, taking months to do things that should have taken weeks instead, just because my brain did not function so well.
I wish us the best for the future. We have some catching up to do !
> Hey, Sid, I think that managing to get a PhD while you are struggling with depression is a pretty amazing accomplishment!!!
>
> Not having fun--well you needed to focus what energy you had, probably, on your work.
>
> I, too, sometimes grieve for the lost years, lost decades. My teens and early 20s were very difficult. By mid to late 20s it was better (due to therapy)and then my early thirties were really looking up--I felt more in charge of myself and my life, had more self confidence, knew who I was. Then the depression hit really hard again, and I basically lost most of my 30s to it. I did work and developed my work life ok, but it gwas a major struggle, and I was held back by the depression in terms of career advancement, not to mention personal life.
>
> I may have lost my chance to have a kid, I don't know. But I have to just look forward now to what is possible.
Posted by Noa on January 10, 2002, at 17:08:42
In reply to Re: fear of depression » Noa, posted by sid on January 10, 2002, at 10:24:17
I tend to lose things a lot and that makes me feel really stupid. Or forget to do something I was supposed to at work. AARRGGHHH.
It isn't from depression at this point. Dunno what it is exactly. My friend who is a psychologist thinks maybe I do have ADD. Who knows.
But I am getting better at keeping track of things. It is kind of like the fear of depression, actually. Now that I'm improving in staying orgainized (still a long way to go but mucch better), when I do lose something or forget something or screw up in some way, it is all the more frustrating.
This is the end of the thread.
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