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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Rosa on October 6, 2001, at 7:56:13
A very close friend has abandonment issues with his natural father and his siblings reject him. He has no contact with them unless he initiates it.
His stepfather is an active alcoholic and was verbally abusive to him when he was growing up. He takes medication for his anger. He would like to feel acceptance from his stepfather. What would you suggest?
Posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 3:47:09
In reply to Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Rosa on October 6, 2001, at 7:56:13
> A very close friend has abandonment issues with his natural father and his siblings reject him. He has no contact with them unless he initiates it.
>
> His stepfather is an active alcoholic and was verbally abusive to him when he was growing up. He takes medication for his anger. He would like to feel acceptance from his stepfather. What would you suggest?
^^^^^^^^^I suggest your friend bring his step-father to Alcoholics Anonymous to get some help. As long as the old man is drunk, he'll always be abusive and any approach at that level will not only be rejected but considered hostile as well. In other words, there's no reasoning with a sot. Don't even try.
I further suggest that your friend find out why he feels abandoned by his natural father, and if this isn't a form of projection on his part. Why would his biological father reject him, and siblings as well? It doesn't make any sense.
So to come full circle with this scintillating bit of logic, I would forget about engendering a relationship with the "abusive one" and work on a lasting relationship with the real one. At least his natural father doesn't come with baggage that can, and will, only bring your friend down further; hence, the anger issues.
I realize that there are probably other issues involved, but taking your words at face value, I see no other paths out of this maze of psychological dilemma.
Next case, please ...
kazoo
Posted by Rosa on October 7, 2001, at 8:43:36
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » Rosa, posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 3:47:09
His natural father abandoned him when he was small and has remarried. His brothers and sister refuse to accept him and they have no contact unless he initiates the call. (It is unclear whether these are children from the second marriage.) His natural father does not try to contact him.
He is seeking acceptance from his natural father and brothers and sister.
He would like to have a father-son relationship with his stepfather but is unable to do so. What do you suggest?
> A very close friend has abandonment issues with his natural father and his siblings reject him. He has no contact with them unless he initiates it.
> >
> > His stepfather is an active alcoholic and was verbally abusive to him when he was growing up. He takes medication for his anger. He would like to feel acceptance from his stepfather. What would you suggest?
>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
> I suggest your friend bring his step-father to Alcoholics Anonymous to get some help. As long as the old man is drunk, he'll always be abusive and any approach at that level will not only be rejected but considered hostile as well. In other words, there's no reasoning with a sot. Don't even try.
>
> I further suggest that your friend find out why he feels abandoned by his natural father, and if this isn't a form of projection on his part. Why would his biological father reject him, and siblings as well? It doesn't make any sense.
>
> So to come full circle with this scintillating bit of logic, I would forget about engendering a relationship with the "abusive one" and work on a lasting relationship with the real one. At least his natural father doesn't come with baggage that can, and will, only bring your friend down further; hence, the anger issues.
>
> I realize that there are probably other issues involved, but taking your words at face value, I see no other paths out of this maze of psychological dilemma.
>
> Next case, please ...
>
> kazoo
Posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 11:03:39
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » kazoo, posted by Rosa on October 7, 2001, at 8:43:36
> His natural father abandoned him when he was small and has remarried. His brothers and sister refuse to accept him and they have no contact unless he initiates the call. (It is unclear whether these are children from the second marriage.) His natural father does not try to contact him.
>
> He is seeking acceptance from his natural father and brothers and sister.
>
> He would like to have a father-son relationship with his stepfather but is unable to do so. What do you suggest?
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.I feel for your friend in a big way: he's stuck between "rejection" and "dejection," a decision that no one should have to make.
Regardless of the abandonment issue with his natural father, your friend's best bet would be with his "real" family. The fact that his siblings accept his contact indicates to me that they have not totally discounted him as "family." Perhaps your friend's natural family doesn't know the horror he is faced with and with that knowledge they would be more receptive to his emotional needs. In times of crisis, a family congeals; i.e., they pull together.
You've said nothing about your friend's mother ... how does she feel about this?
My best to your friend and tell him to KEEP TRYING with his real family.
Keep in touch.
kazoo
Posted by galtin on October 7, 2001, at 18:31:18
In reply to Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Rosa on October 6, 2001, at 7:56:13
> A very close friend has abandonment issues with his natural father and his siblings reject him. He has no contact with them unless he initiates it.
>
> His stepfather is an active alcoholic and was verbally abusive to him when he was growing up. He takes medication for his anger. He would like to feel acceptance from his stepfather. What would you suggest?Rosa-
Whose to say? We would need more information to even hazard a guess. Though active alcoholics are not known for their desire to forge close relationship with their stepsons.
Your friend's best bet might be to see a skillful counselor several times and work his way to some course of action (which might be to not act for the time being).
galtin
galtin
Posted by galtin on October 7, 2001, at 18:47:43
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » Rosa, posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 11:03:39
> > His natural father abandoned him when he was small and has remarried. His brothers and sister refuse to accept him and they have no contact unless he initiates the call. (It is unclear whether these are children from the second marriage.) His natural father does not try to contact him.
> >
> > He is seeking acceptance from his natural father and brothers and sister.
> >
> > He would like to have a father-son relationship with his stepfather but is unable to do so. What do you suggest?
> >
>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.Rosa,
Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
galtin
Posted by Wendy B. on October 7, 2001, at 22:03:44
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection Rosa, posted by galtin on October 7, 2001, at 18:47:43
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
>
> Rosa,
>
> Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
>
>
>
> galtin
Galtin!Rosa did NOT say that, Kazoo did!
Rosa is the one concerned enough to be asking this question for a friend, and Kazoo answered her back, saying this questionable thing about alcoholics beeing unredeemable! Re-read the posts!!
yikes! don't blame Rosa...
wendy
Posted by kazoo on October 8, 2001, at 0:03:41
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection Rosa, posted by galtin on October 7, 2001, at 18:47:43
> I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Try living with one.
kazoo
Posted by kazoo on October 8, 2001, at 0:10:21
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection: CORRECTION! » galtin, posted by Wendy B. on October 7, 2001, at 22:03:44
> yikes! don't blame Rosa...
Yikes, Wendy dearest, let's blame Osama and be done with it.
Besides, the concept of "blame" has been deemed socially unacceptable when insurance companies made this a no-fault world back in the last millennium.
In the manner of Jerzy Kosinski, "I like to pinch.", so can I pinch you?
kazoo
Posted by Wendy B. on October 8, 2001, at 10:20:01
In reply to Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion » Wendy B., posted by kazoo on October 8, 2001, at 0:10:21
> > yikes! don't blame Rosa...
>
> Yikes, Wendy dearest, let's blame Osama and be done with it.
totally fine, in my book anyway... (grumble, grumble, 'sick of them peace-niks')
> Besides, the concept of "blame" has been deemed socially unacceptable when insurance companies made this a no-fault world back in the last millennium.
hell, mon! i got lots 'o blame to hand out, to lots 'o folk... line up, guys and gals!
> In the manner of Jerzy Kosinski, "I like to pinch.", so can I pinch you?
#1: we know he kinds of trash ol' Jerzy wrote!
#2: save the pinches for Willow, she needs 'em more than i do...
> kazoo
lots of love,
and a pinch back,
just for good measure,W.
Posted by Rosa on October 8, 2001, at 11:00:06
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » Rosa, posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 11:03:39
I asked him to clarify the relationship with his half brothers. He said that his half brothers are from his natural fathers second marriage.
His sister is divorced and has a son but they have very little contact. He loves and respects his mother.
^^^^^^^
>
> You've said nothing about your friend's mother ... how does she feel about this?
>
> My best to your friend and tell him to KEEP TRYING with his real family.
>
> Keep in touch.
>
> kazoo
Posted by Rosa on October 8, 2001, at 11:15:18
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection Rosa, posted by galtin on October 7, 2001, at 18:47:43
I did not make the statement you are referring to.
I know several "recovering" alcoholics and they are very nice people. Until his stepfather becomes willing to accept his alcoholism, I do not see very much chance of his having a relationship with him.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
>
> Rosa,
>
> Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
>
>
>
> galtin
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2001, at 17:28:39
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » Rosa, posted by kazoo on October 7, 2001, at 11:03:39
> Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
Sorry, I missed this before. Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, and please be careful not to overgeneralize. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Cass on October 8, 2001, at 21:57:33
In reply to Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Rosa on October 6, 2001, at 7:56:13
This might be a long road. He may finally realize that it is sometimes a blessing to be separated from family members who are abusive and disrespectful. I suggest he find some type of support group in which he finds kindred spirits. They may be his real family.
Posted by Rosa on October 9, 2001, at 7:15:13
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Cass on October 8, 2001, at 21:57:33
Whether it's Al-Anon < www.al-anon.alateen.org >, Adult Children of Alcoholics (and dysfunctional families) < www.adultchildren.org >, or a group like this, I believe this is where we will find others who care. Thanks for your interest and support.
^^^^^^
> This might be a long road. He may finally realize that it is sometimes a blessing to be separated from family members who are abusive and disrespectful. I suggest he find some type of support group in which he finds kindred spirits. They may be his real family.
Posted by Kristi on October 9, 2001, at 10:07:23
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection, posted by Cass on October 8, 2001, at 21:57:33
I have to agree with Cass on this one.... it all depends what your friend is willing to have, give up, etc. I love my father to death.... now... that I have distanced myself from him... me and him and me and my sister(also an alcoholic) have a really close relationship. I've learned the harder you push... the more you get rejected. Just some thoughts. Good luck,
Kristi
> This might be a long road. He may finally realize that it is sometimes a blessing to be separated from family members who are abusive and disrespectful. I suggest he find some type of support group in which he finds kindred spirits. They may be his real family.
Posted by Elizabeth on October 9, 2001, at 13:56:37
In reply to Re: please be civil » kazoo, posted by Dr. Bob on October 8, 2001, at 17:28:39
> > Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
>
> Sorry, I missed this before. Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, and please be careful not to overgeneralize.I was pretty upset to read this too. Drug addicts are demonized by society every day -- can't we rise above that here? Especially (but not exclusively) since there are alcoholics and other addicts reading and posting to these boards.
-elizabeth
Posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:10:46
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection: CORRECTION! » galtin, posted by Wendy B. on October 7, 2001, at 22:03:44
>
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
> >
> > Rosa,
> >
> > Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
> >
> >
> >
> > galtin
>
>
> Galtin!
>
> Rosa did NOT say that, Kazoo did!
>
> Rosa is the one concerned enough to be asking this question for a friend, and Kazoo answered her back, saying this questionable thing about alcoholics beeing unredeemable! Re-read the posts!!
>
> yikes! don't blame Rosa...
>
> wendyWendy and Rosa,
Wendy, thanks for straightening me out. I am new to the site and don't yet associate names with personalities. No excuse, though.
Rosa, please accept my apologies
galtin
Posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion » kazoo, posted by Wendy B. on October 8, 2001, at 10:20:01
> > > yikes! don't blame Rosa...
> >
> > Yikes, Wendy dearest, let's blame Osama and be done with it.
>
>
> totally fine, in my book anyway... (grumble, grumble, 'sick of them peace-niks')
>
>
> > Besides, the concept of "blame" has been deemed socially unacceptable when insurance companies made this a no-fault world back in the last millennium.
>
>
> hell, mon! i got lots 'o blame to hand out, to lots 'o folk... line up, guys and gals!
>
>
> > In the manner of Jerzy Kosinski, "I like to pinch.", so can I pinch you?
>
>
> #1: we know he kinds of trash ol' Jerzy wrote!
> #2: save the pinches for Willow, she needs 'em more than i do...
>
>
> > kazoo
>
>
> lots of love,
> and a pinch back,
> just for good measure,
>
> W.Wendy and Kazoo,
A number of years ago, before he killed himself, obviously, I had dinner with Kosinski and his girlfriend. He didn't pinch me, but it was still quite an evening.
galtin
Posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:19:16
In reply to Re: Abandonment and Rejection » galtin, posted by Rosa on October 8, 2001, at 11:15:18
> I did not make the statement you are referring to.
>
> I know several "recovering" alcoholics and they are very nice people. Until his stepfather becomes willing to accept his alcoholism, I do not see very much chance of his having a relationship with him.
>Rosa,
I now realize my mistake. Wendy energetically pointed it out to me.
I apologize for my carelessness.
galtin
>
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > Unless your friend is willing to accept his stepfather's alcoholism, and all the nasty abuse that goes with it, then the only way he can possibly achieve any sort of bonding is by becoming like his stepfather, and even that has no guarantee of working. Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
> >
> > Rosa,
> >
> > Since we were not asked for our views of alchoholics, I am thinking that your categorical condemnation of them comes from painful personal experience. I can't think why else a person would make such harsh, judgmental statements. Not to mention, inaccurate.
> >
> >
> >
> > galtin
Posted by sar on October 9, 2001, at 23:33:14
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
dear rosa,i feel too inexperienced to comment on the family situation, but i just wanted to add to this thread that not all alcoholics are the monsters kazoo makes them out to be.
alot of monsters are doomed to be alcoholics.
i got real lucky. 90% of the alkies i know are sweethearts. here's a controversial startement: when i was arrested for DWI, the cops reported to my mother that i was the sweetest, most co-operative arrested drunk they'd ever encountered.
i've learned to not push relationships. as kristi mentioned, the harder you push, the more likely they are to fall away. i've found that it's best to be patient and simply ley things BE.
> A number of years ago, before he killed himself, obviously, I had dinner with Kosinski and his girlfriend. He didn't pinch me, but it was still quite an evening.
>
>
> galtinno shit?! well do tell the details! i had no idea he'd killed himself. i read half of *pinball* a couple of years ago and liked his sense of humour...i'll have to research him...how did you happen upon this dinner, and what did he order, and how much did he have to drink :) ?
welcome to psb, galtin...
sar
Posted by kazoo on October 10, 2001, at 2:31:42
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by sar on October 9, 2001, at 23:33:14
> ... when i was arrested for DWI, the cops reported to my mother that i was the sweetest, most co-operative arrested drunk they'd ever encountered.
!
Posted by sar on October 10, 2001, at 10:38:29
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion » sar, posted by kazoo on October 10, 2001, at 2:31:42
> > ... when i was arrested for DWI, the cops reported to my mother that i was the sweetest, most co-operative arrested drunk they'd ever encountered.
>
> !laughing...i guess i got myself there, eh?
Posted by Wendy B. on October 10, 2001, at 12:21:14
In reply to Re: Seduced and Abandoned soon to be a major motion, posted by galtin on October 9, 2001, at 23:15:40
>
> Wendy and Kazoo,
>
>
> A number of years ago, before he killed himself, obviously, I had dinner with Kosinski and his girlfriend. He didn't pinch me, but it was still quite an evening.
>
>
> galtin
galtin,the only reason i spoke so 'energetically' was so that rosa wouldn't feel horrible! sorry...
the reference to the 'trash' kosinski wrote was a silly response to kazoo's silliness... i admire Kosinski very much as an author.
like sar, i'd love to hear the dinner-party story, especially the part about what you ate and drank and how much... what was his girlfriend like? how did you know him?
best,
wendy
Posted by Jane D on October 10, 2001, at 13:14:57
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Elizabeth on October 9, 2001, at 13:56:37
> > > Alcoholics are nasty creatures and they know it, too. I find them debasing, disgusting and degrading. Alcoholics have this rotten habit of directing their delirium toward those don't deserve it, and for that reason alone they're not worth any kind of affection, sympathy or compassion.
> >
> > Sorry, I missed this before. Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, and please be careful not to overgeneralize.
>
> I was pretty upset to read this too. Drug addicts are demonized by society every day -- can't we rise above that here? Especially (but not exclusively) since there are alcoholics and other addicts reading and posting to these boards.
>
> -elizabethElizabeth - Upset by the words or by the sentiments? Addicts of all kinds do cause serious, destructive, problems for the people around them. I don't see anything wrong with reminding people that if they can't give an addict enough support that the problem is often in the addict and not in them. And I don't see any problem with reminding addicts of this either. - Jane
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