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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:49
Does anyone have any suggestions or links that might be helpful for dealing with a passive-aggresive spouse? I'd be appreciative of any help...being direct just doesn't seem to work at all (just pisses her off). I love her and want to help her as much as possible and not make myself crazy (maybe, too late!:>}) from her negativity. Thanks...
Posted by wishingstar on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 7:53:59
This is definitely not the best possible advice, and I'm sure someone else will have other good ideas, but..
I usually just ignore it completely (when possible) or take the statement at complete face value. In my experience, people usually increase it for a few days, a a few weeks at most.. and then it stops completely (or almost anyway). I just pretend not to even hear the underlying passive-aggressive stuff. Like if someone said to me, "well I know you hate me so I guess I'll just <do whatever>" I might just say "I'm sorry you feel like that" rather than trying to argue or convince them otherwise, which was probably the goal of their passive-aggressive statement to begin with. Then they arent getting any reward out of doing it. It makes them mad, but it has worked for me. Good luck. Passive-aggressive behavior can be incredibly frustrating, as I'm sure you know!
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by wishingstar on April 21, 2006, at 8:34:07
Thanks wishingstar,
How do you handle just general complaining and also procratination, "I can't do that right now", etc. I just wonder if there is a way to handle complaining in a useful way-is it best to agree, to just listen, etc. Suggesting alternative ways of seeing things/doing things (in summary, be more direct/assertive and maybe things will get better is my standard thought)has yielded the reaction that I'm being critical.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by wishingstar on April 21, 2006, at 8:34:07
> This is definitely not the best possible advice, and I'm sure someone else will have other good ideas, but..
>
> I usually just ignore it completely (when possible) or take the statement at complete face value. In my experience, people usually increase it for a few days, a a few weeks at most.. and then it stops completely (or almost anyway). I just pretend not to even hear the underlying passive-aggressive stuff. Like if someone said to me, "well I know you hate me so I guess I'll just <do whatever>" I might just say "I'm sorry you feel like that" rather than trying to argue or convince them otherwise, which was probably the goal of their passive-aggressive statement to begin with. Then they arent getting any reward out of doing it. It makes them mad, but it has worked for me. Good luck. Passive-aggressive behavior can be incredibly frustrating, as I'm sure you know!* You are absolutely right. don't play into the negativity. It will only make things worse. Kinda funny to me because you are the rational one, just like my wife, and I am the negative one. Deja vous. LOL
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » wishingstar, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 9:14:48
Oh goodie, a negative person! Would you give me your opinion on how to handle the situations I mentioned in my previous post (procrastination, etc.). And complaining-agree, just acknowledge, etc.? Thanks, I really appreciate it.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:29:31
> Oh goodie, a negative person! Would you give me your opinion on how to handle the situations I mentioned in my previous post (procrastination, etc.). And complaining-agree, just acknowledge, etc.? Thanks, I really appreciate it.
I did read your previous post. Negative people ARE positive, too. The negativity outweighs the optimism, so most times it goes unnoticed. (Society feeds on or notices drama more) I also feel that people can be TOO optimistic, leaving themselves vulnerable or unprepared for undesirable outcomes.
One piece of advice to you (Note: I give it better than follow it myself :`LOL) Try not too direct your negativity toward other people, as it may alienate them from you. As a friend told me, "once you speak it, then it manifests itself."Hope that was not too off-track. RSVP
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 9:43:56
I'm confused-you know that I'm the person trying to deal with the PA person; I'm not the PA (actually, I'm very direct)-so I didn't understand the sentence,"Try not too direct your negativity toward other people, as it may alienate them from you. As a friend told me, "once you speak it, then it manifests itself." - What did I miss?
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:50
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
Oops. I wasn't paying very good attention was I? (feel stupid now) Sorry. (Sitting here at work trying to do a little communicating). I'll try again.
Usually my wife just goes about her business without even bothering with me. Eventually I start feeling guilty that she is doing everything and I will get off my ars to help around the house and such.
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 10:18:57
What does she do that works best for you when you're being negative/complaining? Please don't feel "stupid", I probably didn't make things clear (I'm in the lab, distracted by work :>}) and I also really appreciate your responses.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 10:42:07
Hmm... now you've really got me thinking.
Well, I have bipolar personality, a little depression, anxiety, obsession, compulsion and some explosive anger issues. These are some things that work for me (a little):
Getting professional help.
Accepting that I am and being conscious of when I am getting off-course.
My medication: Lamictal and Wellbutrin (I think I need some other too.)
My spouse's support . When I get frustrated and she says, "Calm down, everything will be ok."
My friend's support. He says calmly "I wouldn't worry about it" when I get a little obsessed or angry about something.
My other friend's support. He says "Dont speak the words because then it manifests itself." (Dont know if that one will work for you?)
And mostly, listening to those people and wanting to do the things they say. That part is all up to me.*Does she know she needs help? Is she getting help? If not, does she want to get help?
curtm
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 11:21:43
No, she doesn't want help and thinks that is just "her style"-that is, it's just her personality. She would never go to a therapist or take a med. She doesn't see her negativity as a problem-and suggesting that it might be is not good for the quality of my life, trust me. I have this theory that the more people need therapy/meds, the more resistant to them they are. If you are more "normal", you just say, "well, let's see if it helps...and I can always bag it if it doesn't". The part you wrote about just saying that things probably aren't as bad as they seems at the moment was helpful...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 11:38:15
"...saying that things probably aren't as bad as they seem at the moment..."
bassmanCould you apply this to your own thinking, too, with respect to how you percieve her?
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by curtm on April 21, 2006, at 11:59:01
I had exactly that thought as I was writing it; thanks for reminding me. I worry that she is suffering needlessly-or at least, she could be suffering less. Being a panic disorder person myself, I certainly know how horrible anxiety/depression can be and I probably try to "overhelp"-but for people with panic, that works well. Just not PA, evidently...
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
>
> How do you handle just general complaining and also procratination, "I can't do that right now", etc.Speaking as a procrastinator, underneath the exterior avoidance are usually two things for me: I generally *am* kinda incubating action -- if it's a paper i need to write, somewhere inside a sort of framework is coming together, if it's housework, part of me is planning the order of attack, and chunking it down to manageable amounts, and generally I'm getting some other distractions out before starting, so that I won't stop in the middle of something. And there's a lot of energy going into self-recrimination. THAT's what gets fed by my husband stepping in with the comments he makes, "You're not doing [x], you'll be upset with yourself if you don't, it won't happen if you just sit there in front of the computer/reading/in front of the TV/knitting/whatever." So, I don't recommend that approach.
What would help me, though, is to have him say, "What would it take for you to start? What can I do to help you get past your block?"
AND THEN DO IT.
See, my husband is pretty passive agressive, and we both procrastinate. But that's what would help me, having some help getting some things taken care of, so that I don't feel so overwhelmed.
>I just wonder if there is a way to handle complaining in a useful way-is it best to agree, to just listen, etc. Suggesting alternative ways of seeing things/doing things (in summary, be more direct/assertive and maybe things will get better is my standard thought)has yielded the reaction that I'm being critical.
Yeah, that would probably be my reaction, too. My husband seems to take complaining as the primary means of communication, but he won't take any suggestions past the point of knocking them down. But if I "complain" -- which includes telling him I feel bad about something, as far as he is concerned -- he "offers suggestions" that feel very critical.
Example: much of what my mother says to me feel very critical to me, and he'll often say, "no, you misinterpreted that. Here's what she meant..." Guess what? That doesn't feel good. I end up feeling hurt by her, guilty for feeling that way since no one else can see why I'd be hurt -- and generally invalidated. A better response might be, "that probably hurts," or "I'm sorry you feel hurt." Just simple, straightforward validation.
In the case of my husband, I try to do the simple validation, when he starts complaining. (And in his case, it's cultural. He didn't grow up here, and he uses the customs of his homeland -- walking into a store and starting off with a complaint there isn't enough space in their car park, for instance. Store owner will get upset, when he just means it as a sort of "how 'bout them 49ers?" comment.) I've learned, over the years, that some of it I can tune out pretty entirely. And when it's real, I can listen, say I'm sorry he feels upset/stressed/frustrated/whatever, and tell him I love him. I don't have to solve his problem, and I don't have to help him solve his problem. But i do have to be a loving and supportive spouse.
And when the passive aggression comes out, in some cases I do use WishingStar's gambit: I take what he says at face value, and respond accordingly. And that works well for me, too. I really recommend it for those times when you can do so.
Other times, I haven't figured out what to do. I try to be clear, straightforward, etc. That hasn't worked yet. (That tends to be about behavior. I'll tell him that I need something -- him to be ready to go by a certain time, or him to set a time he will be ready to go; chores around the house done, or help getting them done -- and he'll say, "Yes, sure, OK, yes, I will definitely do that, I will be ready at [x], I will help you do that on this day" -- and nothing happens. Well, nothing except that I get upset, because he's laid on the sofa all day, or [word GG was scolded for]ed around until we're late leaving the house. So, what I work on now is learning to shift my own expectations, so that I don't rely on him, and don't end up so upset.)
I hope that helps a bit. It's about the best I can come up with right now, but if you have any specific situations to ask about, I can try to put myself into them and see if anything helps me.
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 12:39:05
Racer,
Thanks so much! I am going to take advantage of asking you more a little later...but I am getting the feeling of what really, really doesn't work-and that is a help. The words you used, like "overwhelmed", etc. are exactly my wife's terms, as well. Who knows, I may survive...:>}Thanks for taking the time to write such an in-depth post-I plan to read it several times.
Posted by Racer on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 12:50:17
It was a great way to avoid housecleaning and studying...
:-D
And ask away -- I really am getting things done, just need those breaks now and again, or I get too wound up...
Posted by orchid on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 7:53:59
Just wanted to say, I appreciate your efforts at trying to help and understand your wife. My husband's efforts to understand me really helps me.
I don't know anything about passive-aggression, but asking her to go a T might be a good place to start.
Sounds like she is defensive and you trying to get through the defense may not work. A neutral third party might be better at getting to her.
When I was defensive, I didn't listen to anything my husband said. But I listened to the same things when told by my T :-)
I think that is probably best now for you - back off and let a T do the handling for you if possible.
Posted by orchid on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:51:19
hmm.. i guess I should take that back since your wife refuses to go to a T. That is a tough one then.
Honestly, I wouldn't know what would work. Maybe if you asked her to go to therapy with you, she might relent? Like go for marital therapy where you are also part of the process, instead of just asking her to go?
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to No problem... » bassman, posted by Racer on April 21, 2006, at 13:03:25
Just re-read your post-got even more out of it than the first time. You've got a great writing style; it's very entertaining and emotionally direct. O.K., here's a couple situations:
Wife comes home every day from work, fuming mad about the same things and rants about them-the first thing out of her mouth. The first question I have is, "why would anyone want to subject someone else to that?"-I'm not one who rants-more the short phrases or I'm just quiet, so I don't get the ranting. But more important-what can I do that would be useful and what should I avoid?
Do you have any advice on how to process the negativity so that I don't feel so stressed by it?
It seems to me that the procrastinating is sort of of a form of control, at least that's the way it feels-maybe?
What can be done to have her express whatever it is that is really bothering her (I just had the thought that maybe exactly what she is ranting about is IT-look no farther)-she is not a "what's bothering you, honey" person-she doesn't want to come into contact with that. I really appreciate your help-sorry my post is all over the map...
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:51:19
She doesn't believe she has a problem, so why would she go to a therapist? Case closed...also, she has a resentment about therapists-a very long, painful story. But I do agree with you 100% (which counts for nothing, in this case, I think :>}).
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » orchid, posted by orchid on April 21, 2006, at 13:56:43
Nice try. :>} Nothing wrong, no therapy. She's really very afraid of her feelings...
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 12:50:17
We all know that accepting that you have some behaviors that need to be addressed is a difficult one. She could be scared to go there. I was. The more my wife mentioned it, the less I wanted to listen. I had to realize it for myself. It took a heavy bout of depression (caused by my discontent that was caused by me persistent negativity...) She may end up going down that road too if it is that bad. But lighten up a little bit. Give her some space perhaps. If she is aggressive toward you still, say that you don't like to be treated that way. Want you both to be happy.
Posted by curtm on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: No problem..., posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 14:02:17
Hmmmm!
Rule #1) Don't take work home with you.
Rule #2) Don't take home to work with you.
Posted by wishingstar on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression, posted by bassman on April 21, 2006, at 9:01:59
Good question! I can be quite the procrastinator myself, so I really dont know what to do about that. I wish I did. :) I'm also not married and dont live with anyone, so it's hard for me to give advice on dealing with a person you see day in and day out.
The only thing that comes to mind for me is telling her how you feel, which I'd guess you've done.. but possibly doing it in a way that almost makes it sound like it's your problem and you need HER help. Keep reading! I am by NO means saying this is your fault.. but sometimes the way we word things to people makes all the difference in THEIR behavior. But what if you said something like.. "you come home every day upset about the same things, and it makes me feel so bad.. It's really hard for me to hear.. but I just dont know what I can do for you" in hopes that she'll then tell you what she really needs from you, or at least see that shes really putting a lot on you. I obviously dont know your wife so it may not work.. but things like that have worked for me in the past.
Often when people are complaining I dont think they really want to be shown alternative ways of doing things though.. unless they are really asking for them. Complaining it more of a "poor me" activity in a sense.. and it sounds like that's really true with her, since she gets mad when you try to help. Maybe even tag something on to what I wrote above about how you feel so helpless (fill in your own word of course) because you dont know what to do.. etc etc.
I really hope none of this came across as me blaming you or anything like that. I'm not trying to at all.. it's just a tricky twist of words, I guess. But I dont think of it as being manipulative.. just submitting to what the person needs in order to respond well, I guess. Oh well, I'm rambling. Good luck!
Posted by bassman on April 24, 2006, at 12:14:53
In reply to Re: dealing with passive aggression » bassman, posted by wishingstar on April 21, 2006, at 15:13:11
Oh no-please, blame me and tell me it's all my fault! I blame myself for everything, anyway, so that's no problem at all. :>} Thanks for the suggestions, morningstar! I do like the approach...and it is very valid-i.e., I am suffering and do need her help, depending on your reference frame. But when it comes to this topic, I feel like a bastard at a family picnic, if you know what I mean...
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