![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2010, at 11:07:47
In reply to Question, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 10:50:54
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/settings.pl
That will let you change your settings to turn the buttons off.
Thanks for introducing yourself! I'm really glad that Babble was able to help you.
It must have been to leave your therapist, especially if he didn't mean to do harm. Are you still with your new therapist? What do you find more helpful about this experience?
Posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 13:40:54
In reply to Re: Question » Solstice, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2010, at 11:07:47
Hi Dinah!
It's sort of surreal for me to be 'talking' to you. I've felt a one-sided affinity with you for years now. You have taught me more than you can possibly imagine.
It was a strange transition from "Toxic T" (TT) to "Healling T" (HT). I entered therapy initially because multiple life crisis/trauma accumulated and like an avalanche, I was crushed beneath them in a way that rendered me non-functioning. There was one particular day that a very tiny straw broke the camel's back. I very clearly remember experiencing myself (or my psyche) fracturing. It wasn't psychosis - it was like somewhere inside myself the strong, capable part of me disappeared.
I called a PhD who I had encountered years before. Initially, therapy was fine. But my traumatic experiences, and the effect of those experiences on me, tapped into a very invalidating childhood where I was moved all over the country and had never been provided a sense of relationship safety or emotional connection. I had figured out(unawares) how to manage and was quite happy the first big chunk of my life. But when life brought me to my knees, a very deep need to be bonded, connected, understood to and by someone who represented parental-type authority took over. It's only in retrospect that I've understood that's what was taking place.
TT didn't 'get' it. He tended to respond defensively to my attempts to establish a feeling of connection - my attempts to feel understood. His ideas about 'good therapy' were in conflict with what I needed (but didn't realize I needed). I was so broken and in so much pain when I started therapy, that out of sheer desperation I did the one thing I had never really done. I trusted someone. I trusted him.
I am certain he did not mean any harm. But it created a world of unnecessary pain and some permanent injuries to me that he was just not very good at believing that he could learn what I needed therapeutically through my naive and inexperienced ways of trying to 'tell' him. What made it especially difficult is that there were times that I got what I needed. Unfortunately, those times were few and far between. I tried to 'tell' him what I needed by describing therapeutic experiences I had with him that were healing. That 'turned the tide.' That were effective. I'll never understand it, but in those moments (that believe me, took a lot of time to muster the courage to talk about).. but it's like he had a very simple rule that if he found out what a client thought they needed from him, then his job was to cut it off. Didn't seem to matter what it was.
Anyway, I started into a tailspin over some unresolved 'breaks' in our relationship. He misunderstood something I asked him about that wasn't even related to me. He gave me his rendition of what I intended. I tried to correct his misunderstanding of what I intended. He adamantly stood by his notion. He refused to consider that he had misinterpreted. Because of my life experience, that caused a deep wound in me and started an escallation of my downward spiral. At that point, multiple things came up in quick succession that were deeply hurtful. I could not re-establish a feeling of connection with him, and he didn't seem to understand how crucial it was that he at least pretend he saw himself as playing a role in the breakdown of our relationship. He was pretty clear that he considered it my fault.
Early in therapy he made quite a point of telling me that he didn't think there were very many 'good' therapists. He told me multiple times about his criteria for determining whether any kind of professional would have access to his kids (teachers/coaches, etc), and since his clients were just right below his immediate family in importance, he was very picky about professionals he would recommend to his clients. For example in his absence he could not trust any other therapist to step in for an emergency. He said there were only one or two psychiatrists in our large metropolis that he would refer one of his patients to see. That felt good when I was initially so confused and felt in such great need of protection. But when our relationship fell apart a couple of years later, I became very fearful that he would get angry with me (since it was my fault) and would kick me out, at which point I'd be thrown to the wolves (all the 'bad' therapists that don't meet his high standard) out there. He never said he would kick me out - but my fear of it was intense. I told him about it, and even though he said he would stay with me, the chasm.. the enormous fracture in our therapeutic connection was such a threat to me that I couldn't 'hear' that he was committed.
So, I contacted a friend who is a psychiatrist, and asked for a referral. I didn't tell this friend what was going on, but I wanted a name and number in my pocket to call in case the nightmare I feared (that I would be kicked out) came to life. What I didn't plan on, was that my psychiatrist friend kept calling me to ask if I'd seen the therapist, and whether it was working for me. I was so embarassed about the psychological pain I was in, that I didn't want to explain it to my friend - so I called the referral and thought "Well, I meet this new T, that'll be good, and then my friend will stop asking, and I'll have met who will catch me if my TT throws me to the wolves." I met with New HT, and HT properly inquired about my intentions to continue, etc. HT had no idea I had been in therapy. The intake form asked, but I left it blank. So for a good long while, probably close to a year, I saw them both.
I learned things from that convoluted process that were crucial to my ultimate survival. I experimented - brought up the same kind of stuff with HT that was causing me trouble with TT. The vastly different therapeutic response was profound for me. The initial fascinating thing was that HT asked me, week after week, "is this relationship working for you?" HT kept asking me if I would be able to tell him/her if something was wrong - if something he/she said was hurting rather than helping. Week after week, HT inquired about the quality of our relationship. As a result, I my focus was held there. And then one day the comment came that hit me like a ton of granite. After inquiring about how I felt about our relationship, HT said "Solstice, I need to know that I can trust you to tell me if something is wrong. I ask because I'm not perfect, and I can pretty much guarantee that at some point, I will disappoint you. But if you will tell me about it, we will work it out together." Wow. Seems simple, but I was blown away. We would work it out together??? That's what I'd been trying to get TT to do for a year now, and here HT is, offering it to me like a gift! He/she was practically begging me to promise that I would complain if something happened in therapy that was 'bad' - and he/she wanted to know so that he/she could work it out together with me! OMG that was profoundly healing to me. I assured HT that I would be willing to say something if there was a problem. Without realizing it, I think I then started experimenting with what it might look like if I complained to HT about therapy. It was little bitty stuff. If during a session I thought I'd been 'read' wrong, I'd stop HT and onfront it. Without fail - every single time - HT was deeply interested in how I experienced our relatinoship. Without exception, HT would, without a single shred of defensiveness, inquire about my thoughts, feelings, and reactions to what it was I 'complained' about. I had never in my life experienced such a thing. HT really did work things out with me. Time after time after time. It created an entirely new relationship experience for me. In response, HT would adjust. It may seem like it's not a big deal, but it was for me. An earth-shaking big deal.
Early in my therapeutic journey with HT, I showed up for an appointment and HT did not. I was an anxious mess. My fear was enormous. About 15 min after our meeting time, I finally worked up the nerve (sweating and shaking thru the whole ting), to call HT. Left a message on voicemail saying I might have been wrong, but I thought we had an apt. but I was leaving since it was 15 min. after. It had gone to HT's cell, and HT called back within 5 min. or so. Apologized profousely (it was a weekend apt) - didn't have calendar with him/her, and since it was a holiday weekend had not thought to check before going off to do personal holiday things. I tried so hard to take the blame - but HT didn't let me. And said, "I feel very bad about this, and there will be no cost to you for our next session." That was huge. One way or another, TT would not have been in error. Somehow it would have been my fault. That HT refused to blame me, and even saw to it that I came out 'ahead' was profound for me. We talked about it many months later (after I confessed to seeing two T's simultaneously). When HT heard me describing the enormously positive therapeutic effect of that experience, HT responded "Jeesh - that's supposed to be a cardinal rule about how to really damage a therapeutic relationship - to forget an appointment. And you're telling mne it helped you!!" We had some good laughs over that - and HT felt much less guilty about that lapse.
Anyway, the difference between the two is that HT is very attuned to the relationship - very attuned to my ebb and flow... very attuned to when something is amiss. While HT always emphasizes my right to refuse, HT manages to get me to talk about very difficult things. Where as with TT things got to the point that I always walked out of there feeling worse, with HT I have always walked out of there feeling better. Even if I felt good walking in, I walk out feeling better! HT pushes me - sometimes where I don't want to be pushed. I can push back, and HT will maintain his/her position - yet allow me to not budge.
Probably the thing is that for HT, there is nothing that supercedes the therapeutic relationship. To HT, the relationship is everything, and nothing else will work if that relationship isn't running well. TT seemed to hold me responsible for the relationship. He would not meet me where I was. I needed him to 'find' me where I was, because I could not figure out how to get to where he was. But it seemed like if my attempt to repair our relationship wasn't perfectly healthy, his way of encouraging me to figure out how to do it in a healthy way was to not engage. For example, if my appeal to him was at all accusatory (like.. "you don't understand me!"), he would make sure that he did not give me the understanding I wanted. I think he intended that to encourage me to ensure an appeal did not contain something 'bad' like an accusatory tone, but the very wounded and invalidated primal part of me needed him to see beyond my inadequacy and provide me with an example of healthy interraction. If he'd said "Solstice, it makes me feel bad to hear you say that, but I really do want to understand you. Can you tell me what I'm doing that makes you feel like I don't understand you?" If he'd had that approach, I think I'd have not been so psychologically traumatized byt therapy. If something was wrong with our relationship, from his viewpoint either I had caused the problem, or my perceptions were wrong. How I experienced therapy did not seem to interest him. I tried to tell him once (in response to his criticism of my attempt to resolve the breakdown) that if I knew how to 'do it right' I would not be in therapy. He didn't get my point. I think he thought I was just admitting to be wrong. I don't think he thought he was 'perfect,' but he could not imagine that he was capable, in his role as therapist, of doing or saying anything he did could be harmful. Once when I described an interaction between us that had been painful for me, he responded "You're questioning my professional judgment." That shut me up. In the past he'd talked at length (rather passionately) about how he digs in his heels fighting anyone who dares tell him 'how to do his job.'
And yes, I still see HT. I think we're coming up on 4 years now. I last saw TT almost 1.5 yrs. ago.
Sorry for the length of this. Now that it seems I've pretty much told my whole story, maybe my future posts will be really short!
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2010, at 13:55:18
In reply to Re: Question » Dinah, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 13:40:54
Oh wow. The way you describe your HT sounds so much like my therapist! I think that without that quality, I'd have left long ago and without making a single change.
I've also seen therapists like your TT. I think they may be helpful for some people, and I'm sure they think they're doing the right thing. But...
I'm intrigued by your therapist asking for feedback at each session. I'd heard of the technique. It's highly recommended. I've never had experience of it. Was it difficult to answer?
Those rifts in a relationship can be the best time to gain trust. When things go well, people behave well enough. It's when things go badly that you can learn what another person is like. It makes perfect sense to me that the missed appointment could deepen the relationship.
I'm very happy to hear that I was able to teach you something as I was stumbling through my own issues in therapy. :)
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2010, at 13:55:50
In reply to Re: Question » Dinah, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 13:40:54
I forgot to say that I really like your name.
Posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 15:33:20
In reply to Re: Question » Solstice, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2010, at 13:55:18
> Oh wow. The way you describe your HT sounds so much like my therapist!
Actually, it was partly my reading (all the way back in archives) about the evolution of your relationship with your therapist that - along with my HT's therapeutically different responses - that helped me realize that my need for a safe attachment was not inherently 'bad.'
>I think that without that quality, I'd have left long ago and without making a single change.
But... unlike you, I was so psychologically frail that I bought it hook, line and sinker that "I" was the entire problem, and that TT was my only hope to straighten myself up. My primal need for attachment and validation having never been met didn't help, either. Thing is, that the more painful 'therapy' became with TT, and the more damage that was done to me, the more unable I was to extract myself. Part of that is related to the virgin-trust I had placed in him. I had never trusted before... and for my first experience of trust to bring me so much harm...
Most people who enter therapy have something inside that is broken. For me though, it's like I went in with a broken leg - limping, and came out with a broken neck, paralized.
>
> I've also seen therapists like your TT. I think they may be helpful for some people, and I'm sure they think they're doing the right thing. But...Yeah.. that's a big "But.."! Bottom line is that based on my experience, being in the role of a therapist is one that should be permeated with humility and a grave sense of responsibility to the well-being of the client. No one can destroy a person quite like a therapist. My own parents' emotional neglect was harmful - but it didn't destroy me. What happened to me in the care of my TT created an emotional 'deadness' that I struggle mightily to recover from. The cost of my inability to extract myself was high. I will never be the same, and I'd give anything to recover the parts of me that fell into the abyss of a very toxic therapeutic relationship. If TT had had some humility - some ability to hold himself responsible for recognizing a client deteriorating - and then figuring out a way to either heal the therapeutic relationship or get help in figuring it out or helping a client who is deteriorating transition to a therapist more suited to their needs... I wonder about the different course my life could have taken.
>
> I'm intrigued by your therapist asking for feedback at each session. I'd heard of the technique. It's highly recommended. I've never had experience of it. Was it difficult to answer?
>We talked about that experience down the road. I don't know that HT was intentionally going for feedback as a technique. I think HT just happens to intuitively understand that it's crucial - and isn't going to leave it up to a client to make sure a problem is brought up. It wasn't like a formal feedback inquiry. It was more like - we were just starting therapy, and HT saw it as his/her responsibility to make sure it was working... to set it up right. I wasn't expected to bring it up on my own. This was before he/she knew I'd ever been in therapy, much less a harmful therapy. Before I'd leave, for the first few months, it was just a simple, "Now Solstice, let me ask you - is this relationship working for you?" and "Do you feel like you can tell me if there's something that is not working?" It was always a variation of that kind of question. I'd always answer "Oh sure - yeah, everything's fine!" After what I'd been through (and was simultaneously going through b/c I was still seeing TT), the question always jarred me. At the same time as HT was asking me to bring up problems and assuring me we'd 'work it out together,' TT was blaming me for the problems in my relationship with him. At that point there weren't any problems in my therapyt with HT, but HT's interest in how I was experiencing our relationship stuck with me throught the week. When HT finally said "Solstice, I need to know that I can trust you to tell me if there is something wrong." It startled me. There was something about the deep sincerity of that - it was like HT really NEEDED this from me - to know that he/she could trust me to bring any problems the relationship might be causing for me - that penetrated me deeply. It went into that searing wound I had and made me feel that in this therapeutic relationshp, I did not have to fear being blamed... shamed... or otherwise harmed if I neededed to talk about the therapeutic relationship. HT wanted to know! More importantly, HT NEEDED to know. It made me feel safe.
The sense of safety that then emerged generated some unconscious exploration on my part of whether I really could bring up a 'problem' in the relationship and it turn out well. Considering my past experience, it was intensely risky for me. Fortunately, HT never responded in any way other than with deep interest in how our relationship felt to me. There were a number of conversations HT had with me that were very difficult for me to hear. HT had a terrible time getting me to believe that it would be good for me to feel attached to him/her. I was very avoidant. Attached?? You've got to be kidding! Then there were these knowing 'looks' I'd get that implied that he/she wouldn't be satisfied until I was attached. Talk about me being a wreck. I didn't say it, but I think HT sensed a "not if I can help it" reaction from me. I'll never forget one time in session we're talking, and it may have been about a 'complaint' I was bringing up. HT wryly says "Sounds like attachment to me." Stopped me dead in my tracks. HT was telling me that I'd just said something that told him/her that I was attached to him/her! I felt like I was (proverbially) caught with my pants down. Exposed. Yikes! Oh God NO!! Please don't say that scary word! Don't tell me I'm attached! :) Nowadays, HT will inquire (often with probing questions that make me tempted to squirm) anytime he/she senses something amiss with me, but he/she has learned to trust that I DO feel safe enough with him/her to bring anything up that's bothering me about our relationship. I dunno - but there's something sacred about the dynamic for me. HT seems to believe it is his/her responsibility to create and maintain the safety of the relationship. TT didn't hold himself responsible for that. At all.
Posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 16:11:15
In reply to Re: Question » Solstice, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2010, at 13:55:50
> I forgot to say that I really like your name.
:) and you.. dear Dinah.. are very kind.
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 4, 2010, at 20:12:41
In reply to Re: Question » Dinah, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 16:11:15
Mutual trust is so important in therapy. I once told my T I'd like to give him something exquisite, like be an artist and give him a beautiful painting or be musician and compose a beautiful piece of music for him. He said I had already given him something exquisite and that was a relationship of mutual trust. My trust was the greatest gift I could give him.
Posted by obsidian on November 4, 2010, at 21:11:25
In reply to Question, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 9:50:54
ah, a long time lurker eh?? :-)
wow, you've been behind the scenes all this time?
it's kind of nice to think someone had an interest, was helped here, even if we didn't know it....but now we do. :-)
I tend not to talk about my therapy here really, strange as that might be.
glad you worked some stuff out,
sid
Posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 21:25:58
In reply to Re: Question, posted by emmanuel98 on November 4, 2010, at 19:12:41
> He said I had already given him something exquisite and that was a relationship of mutual trust. My trust was the greatest gift I could give him.
Your T is so right. A lot of us who are in therapy struggle with trust issues. The trust we place in a therapist is usually one-sided. When my HT said s/he needed to trust that I would say something if our relationship was compromised, I was deeply moved. I think that may be what cracked the door open and created the possibility for me to trust again.
Posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 21:45:23
In reply to Re: Question » Solstice, posted by obsidian on November 4, 2010, at 21:11:25
> ah, a long time lurker eh?? :-)
> wow, you've been behind the scenes all this time?
> it's kind of nice to think someone had an interest, was helped here, even if we didn't know it....but now we do. :-)Ha! yes... Sid, I've been here for years. I read for a good while before I registered (thinking I'd like to post)... and then took a few years to suddenly pop into a world where I am 'new' to you all, but you all are not 'new' to me! I've watched people come and go, deputies materialize and evaporate, and I've watched all the turmoil over blocking and facebook. Mostly, though, I've been interested in people's stories about their therapeutic relationships... and this place has been immensely helpful to my surviving the devastation of a toxic one, and probably more importantly, this place helped me feel like I was properly recognizing a therapeutic relationship that was safe.
That was the gold here for me.
And that gold was here amidst the strife, turmoil, and upheaval.
Posted by workinprogress on November 4, 2010, at 22:30:28
In reply to Question, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 9:50:54
Welcome and thanks for sharing. It so IS all about the relationship. I'm glad you were able to find HT.
My relationship with my therapist and the experience of therapy is the single most profound experience of my life. It saved/changed my life, allowed me to begin to become myself. It's for that reason that I'm quitting my career (changing jobs), going back to school, and going to try to do this work as work.
And I am so so excited... and so so afraid!!! ;)
Welcome welcome welcome!
WIP
> I haven't properly introduced myself. I've been a member of the forum for many years, but I only recently started posting. I've been reading the posts for some time, and of course I've been through the archives. In a weird sort of way, I feel like I know so many of you very well! So it's like I have a one-sided relationship with members here - and when I suddenly decided to post, I didn't think about how weird it might be for active members of the community to see someone posting and acting as if they'd been here all along. I have, but you all didn't know it :) So I realized to day that I needed to properly introduce myself.
>
> I found the forum when I googled about very distressing issues with my previous therapist. I can't tell you how much it helped me to read about others' relationships with their therapists. It took a long time, but I eventually was able to extract myself from a toxic therapeutic relationship with a therapist who really is a good guy - but he didn't seem to realize how much I was being harmed. It was through what I read here, along with a new therapist (I was doubled up for a while - without either of them knowing), that I finally understood what I needed to do for myself.
>
> Anyway, I have a question. I joined way before the facebook/twitter 'event'. I'm sure I've seen posts explaining how to turn those things off, but since it was n/a at the time, I don't remember. How do I turn those things off?
>
> Thanks
>
> Solstice
>
>
Posted by Dinah on November 5, 2010, at 8:00:57
In reply to Re: Question, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 15:33:20
I like your HT. My therapist doesn't feel that degree of responsibility for the relationship, I don't think. He doesn't disavow it either, of course. He's just very laid back.
I think my psychological frailty was just of a slightly different sort. Trust has always been an issue for me. My trust of my therapist, even now, is limited and perhaps conditional. There are ways I trust him and ways I still don't.
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 10:50:21
In reply to Re: Question » Solstice, posted by Dinah on November 5, 2010, at 8:00:57
> I like your HT. My therapist doesn't feel that degree of responsibility for the relationship, I don't think. He doesn't disavow it either, of course. He's just very laid back.
>
> I think my psychological frailty was just of a slightly different sort. Trust has always been an issue for me. My trust of my therapist, even now, is limited and perhaps conditional. There are ways I trust him and ways I still don't.Dinah -
That's the deal. My HT would say that the reserved trust you feel is healthy. With TT, I was in such desperate pain that I trusted him without reservation. That was fine when things were okay, but when that relationship turned toxic, I trusted him... not me. Kinda like if I put my hand over the gas burner, and then when the fire pops up and it's burning, I don't pull away because I trust the source of the flame - that it means no harm and will figure it out.
It was weird to me initially with my HT regarding trust. HT almost encouraged me to NOT trust him/her. My trust issues didn't bother HT one bit. HT told me I should not trust him/her. Early on s/he told me about a book "If You Meet The Buddah On The Road, Kill Him." (It's about therapy). S/he said I should never trust anyone with abandon... never abandon my own inner voice in favor of another's. HT told me it was 'protective,' to be hesitant to trust and "it'll keep you safe." I read the book and it helped me understand the concept of never handing myself over wholly, and keeping myself with myself.Whereas TT seemed to expect - even demand - that I trust him, HT did the opposite. Sometimes I'd get the question "Do you feel you can trust me?" My long pause and hesitation answering seemed to be greeted with a relieved "Good! I don't expect you to trust me." HT didn't ask me to trust - just asked me to be willing to work out with him/her any problems that came up between us. As a result, over time, a sense of safety... a sense that it's safe to trust.. has taken root. I think at the core of it is that the relationship and the trust is not grounded in HT having perfectly therapeutic responses 100% of the time. Rather, it's grounded in the assurance (based on lots of repetatice experiences) that if there is a problem, HT WILL work it out with me, and we will resolve it together. That's been the big deal for me. That's where my fragile ability to trust has found an alcove of safety from which to live and breathe, and grow more sturdy. I'm a lot more sturdy than I used to be.
So whatever level of trust I feel has always been okay with HT. Sometimes I've been pushed harder than I could manage, or faster than I was able/willing to go. Those turned into those 'work it out together' things. My sense of myself has always been what s/he defers to. HT has acknowledged feeling frustrated at times when I've dug in my heels, but has never left me feeling bad about it. Ever. When we've talked about some of those things in retrospect,it has been interesting to have the 20/20 hindsight and see why my digging in my heels was precisely what needed to take place - and HT's willingness to accommodate it was wisdom.
HT would say to only trust as much as you can. To not trust is self-protection.. which is a good thing. Taking the pressure off of 'having' to trust kind of created more room for it to flourish. And I mean both pressure from HT as therapist, as well as pressure from my own self to 'have' to trust. I don't 'have' to trust, but I will trust as long as I sense it is safe to do so. I learned how to do that during the last year.
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 11:11:29
In reply to Re: Question » Solstice, posted by workinprogress on November 4, 2010, at 23:30:28
Thanks for the warm welcome, WIP. And I admre the courage you have - because it takes courage to make big changes like that!
Posted by pegasus on November 5, 2010, at 11:26:36
In reply to Re: Trust » Dinah, posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 10:50:21
"Taking the pressure off of 'having' to trust kind of created more room for it to flourish. And I mean both pressure from HT as therapist, as well as pressure from my own self to 'have' to trust. I don't 'have' to trust, but I will trust as long as I sense it is safe to do so."
Yeah, that's it, isn't it? This feels profound to me, in the middle of my testing of my new T, to figure out the level of trust I can have. I've been feeling bad about all the testing. But you're saying more, even, than that I have permission. You're saying it's what you need to do.
Thanks.
- P
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 12:13:56
In reply to Re: Trust » Solstice, posted by pegasus on November 5, 2010, at 11:26:36
> "Taking the pressure off of 'having' to trust kind of created more room for it to flourish. And I mean both pressure from HT as therapist, as well as pressure from my own self to 'have' to trust. I don't 'have' to trust, but I will trust as long as I sense it is safe to do so."
>
> Yeah, that's it, isn't it? This feels profound to me, in the middle of my testing of my new T, to figure out the level of trust I can have. I've been feeling bad about all the testing. But you're saying more, even, than that I have permission. You're saying it's what you need to do.
>
> Thanks.
>
> - PPeg -
Wow... what you said is exactly 'it'! It felt weird for a long time when HT responded to my struggle to trust him/her with relief... even gladness. I remember HT specifically telling me that s/he'd be more worried about me if I could trust, than if I couldn't. HT felt good about my reluctance.. and my 'testing.' I remember one time in therapy talking about something that had taken place (can't remember the details), but HT said (with a smile) "This feels like a Love Test!" THAT jarred me :) But by then, 'yucky' concepts had become more tolerable for me. I brought it up a week or so later, and HT explained that what was taking place was s/he'd recognized it as a 'test' of whether s/he would stay in this with me.
So yeah Peg.. according to HT, holding your trust in reserve... and being slow to trust... is the healthy way to trust.. ESPECIALLY in therapy.
I remember after my relationship with TT, all the trauma of that was in the open and I was struggling with the pain of it all, on several occasions HT said something along the lines that if I had not trusted so heartily, I would have been better at recognizing I had to get out of there. HT told me s/he did not ever want me to trust ANY therapist, including him/her, that exclusively. It was all about killing that Buddah thing. That phrase kind of became our way of referring to the concept. NObody should be anyone's Buddah. If you try to make someone a Buddah (or they try to be a Buddah), make yourself strip them of that power. That's healthy. According to my HT, anyway.
And by the way, Peg... I was so intrigued by your recent search for a new T. I'd never told my HT about my reading psycho-babble. But I hung on every word of your therapist search, fascinated by the processm and so grateful that you shared all of the twists and turns of the decision-making process.. what affected you.. and what didn't. That's when I shared psycho-babble with HT. I brought my laptop to therapy and opened up your therapist search and read some of the posts. S/he asked me if I posted on the forum. At the time, I hadn't, so I said 'no.' I see HT today - so haven't (and probably won't anyway) said anything about posting - but I don't care if s/he reads it. It has been so liberating for me to be in a therapeutic relationship where I genuinely feel safe hiding nothing. And if anything happened that made me not feel safe, first I'd say something and anticipate 'working it out together.' If I felt harm was coming to me, I think I would be hurt and disappointed, but I do think I would now not stay in a toxic therapy. So 'trust' should always be contingent. Kudo's to my HT for maintaining an environment that has allowed that to develop, take root, and become part of me... I don't think I'd have ever figured it out on my own.
Posted by Dinah on November 5, 2010, at 13:08:18
In reply to Re: Trust » Dinah, posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 10:50:21
> It was weird to me initially with my HT regarding trust. HT almost encouraged me to NOT trust him/her. My trust issues didn't bother HT one bit. HT told me I should not trust him/her. Early on s/he told me about a book "If You Meet The Buddah On The Road, Kill Him." (It's about therapy). S/he said I should never trust anyone with abandon... never abandon my own inner voice in favor of another's. HT told me it was 'protective,' to be hesitant to trust and "it'll keep you safe." I read the book and it helped me understand the concept of never handing myself over wholly, and keeping myself with myself.
I like that way of thinking of it. It was a good book? I'll have to look it up. My therapist and I talked about trust today, and the difference between feeling trust and acting with trust, and different degrees of trust. It was a bit confusing to me.
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 14:31:41
In reply to Re: Trust » Solstice, posted by Dinah on November 5, 2010, at 13:08:18
>
> I like that way of thinking of it. It was a good book? I'll have to look it up. My therapist and I talked about trust today, and the difference between feeling trust and acting with trust, and different degrees of trust. It was a bit confusing to me.
Yeah, I liked it. It's a really old book. HT was required to read it on the way to PhD, I think. I got mine on Amazon for a dollar or two. I don't remember if the book talks specifically about trust... as much as it being about the inherent dangers of believing that others have power over you superior to your own, or having something 'special' that you need to have bestowed upon you by them, basically putting people (especially therapists) on pedestals. Kinda along the lines of being connected to your own self-autonomy.I remember intially I flinched thinking "Does HT think I am idolizing? Yuck!" But we talked it out. I've never done therapist-gift-giving, but last year I found a litte Buddha statue. I gave it to HT with a long letter describing highlights of our therapy for me.. and said the Buddha is a reminder of what s/he is very good at NOT being! (So I don't have to 'kill' my HT :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2010, at 17:21:59
In reply to Re: Question » obsidian, posted by Solstice on November 4, 2010, at 22:45:23
> I've been here for years. I read for a good while before I registered (thinking I'd like to post)... and then took a few years to suddenly pop into a world where I am 'new' to you all, but you all are not 'new' to me! I've watched people come and go, deputies materialize and evaporate, and I've watched all the turmoil over blocking and facebook. Mostly, though, I've been interested in people's stories about their therapeutic relationships... and this place has been immensely helpful to my surviving the devastation of a toxic one, and probably more importantly, this place helped me feel like I was properly recognizing a therapeutic relationship that was safe.
>
> That was the gold here for me.
>
> And that gold was here amidst the strife, turmoil, and upheaval.It's important to recognize gold when you find it. :-)
Bob
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 20:01:16
In reply to Re: the gold, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2010, at 17:21:59
> >
> > That was the gold here for me.
> >
> > And that gold was here amidst the strife, turmoil, and upheaval.
> It's important to recognize gold when you find it. :-)
>
> Bobyeah.. and honestly - there really is a lot of gold here. Everybody needs to understand that. The sparkle of gold doesn't dim just because it's surrounded by strife. I'm not saying I think the strife is inconsequential or should be ignored, but there are definitely healing properties here despite the turmoil.
I contributed my ideas about possible ways to take the sting out of the current policies for implementing discipline for violations of site guidelines on that long Admin thread if you, or anyone else (besdes Muff last I checked:), is interested.
Solstice
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 5, 2010, at 20:38:14
In reply to Re: Trust » Dinah, posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 10:50:21
Interesting about HT telling you not to give your trust completely. My T really emphasizes trust, that I trust him to care about me and he trusts me to be honest. Obviously, unlike your bad T, he doesn't insist that I trust him, but I do. He has never abused my trust and I have never felt a desire to be other than totally honest with him, because he never judges me and is always open-minded and compassionate.
Posted by emmanuel98 on November 5, 2010, at 20:40:28
In reply to Re: Trust, posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 12:13:56
Just curious. Why do you refer to HT as s/he? Is s/he male or female or do you not want to say for some reason?
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 21:49:15
In reply to Re: Trust » Solstice, posted by emmanuel98 on November 5, 2010, at 20:38:14
> Interesting about HT telling you not to give your trust completely. My T really emphasizes trust, that I trust him to care about me and he trusts me to be honest.
:) Maybe it was important for HT to do that with me because my trust issues were leaking out and HT saw it with clarity. It took a long, long time for me to settle into trusting that HT cared about me. I think I believe that now most of the time. I also learned to trust HT to 'be there' when I need my base. HT has accomplished that in some remarkable ways. I have an absolute trust (based on repeated experiences) that if there is a problem in our relationship, HT will ensure that we work it out together... even if I try to return to my 'cave' and avoid it. I am safe there. I'm safe even when things are less than ideal in the relationship or the room. If HT started behaving in an untrustworthy manner though, I think the trust I feel would be interrupted. And I believe I would survive it. That's healthy trust. With TT, I trustes him, even when his behavior became very UNtherapeutic. HT's position is that no one can expect or demand my trust - and that I should trust only as it feels safe to do so. Rather than indescriminate trust, I think your T is emphasizing safe trust. Mine just may make a further distinction in that even if you've determined a person is worthy of your trust, you should always keep your hand on it so you can pull it back at any time, if needed... and we should never feel compelled to trust. I think my HT's way of handling it served to protect whatever smidgen of possiblity there might be for me to be able to trust again.
>>Obviously, unlike your bad T, he doesn't insist that I trust him, but I do.
That right there is the key. Yours is a keeper :)
Solstice
Posted by Solstice on November 5, 2010, at 22:07:39
In reply to Re: Trust » Solstice, posted by emmanuel98 on November 5, 2010, at 20:40:28
> Just curious. Why do you refer to HT as s/he? Is s/he male or female or do you not want to say for some reason?
Fair question, emmanuel. I think it's partly because I see HT as genderless. I have a need to keep it that way for myself. So when I'm talking about HT on this public forum, in permanent written form, for me gender can't be part of the equation. Maybe it would be easier if I just switch back and forth from him to her, rather than always including both as in "him/her."
I guess it can just be taken as a Solstice idiosyncrasy :)
Posted by lucielu2 on November 7, 2010, at 20:15:08
In reply to Re: the gold, posted by Dr. Bob on November 5, 2010, at 17:21:59
Solstice,
Welcome from me too. I'm glad you found your voice :-)
Lucie
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.