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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 18 to 42 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 8:33:58
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by emilyp on April 2, 2010, at 19:56:43
In answer to question 1, I would feel very hurt if the tables were turned. You seem angry that I have this issue. It is just that, an issue. I am sorry if I have upset you in some way. I am trying my hardest to understand myself in this. And, I'm quite sure he (therapist) does not have "special" feelings for me. He has said the same things to me that the other poster, Daisym, wrote about her therapist. I am a psychologist and am amazed at my feelings and wonder what is going on. Frankly, I think my feelings are "breaking through." I can assure you this will not hurt my relationship with my therapist. He will not tell me what he does not think is appropriate to tell me.
Posted by emilyp on April 3, 2010, at 10:34:38
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 8:33:58
I am not angry in any way. While I am sure you will disagree, I just find it selfish on your part, both as it relates to your husband and your therapist. (Perhaps the only thing that is 'personal' to me is that I do not tolerate selfish behavior.) A poster made reference to kids. We are not kids, we are adults. And to be an adult, you should learn that life is not simply what we want but should actively consider what others think. Several people on this board think therapy gives you the right to be selfish and care mostly about yourself. Perhaps that is true in the therapists office - I don't believe that is true outside the office. But obviously you do, so ask whatever you need. I hope you find what you want.
Posted by Willful on April 3, 2010, at 11:29:35
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by Daisym on April 3, 2010, at 2:16:00
Since I believe that was part of my point, I have to respectfully say that I didn't suggest that the need to have someone's therapist be in love with them is not the surface manifestation of an issue. But I also think if you get stuck on discussing that--if or when the therapy becomes primarily thinking about, or discussing whether or how the therapist loves you-- rather than continuing the other work-- you won't discover the issues underneath or around it, or come to understand the deeper scenarios of need and desire that are represented by it.
No one, certainly not me, is doubting that we need to feel valued and cared about by our therapists, or have a secure attachment.
My concern is that if you start talking about your desire for love, and have spent years focussed on it, in a way that disrupts the other work of therapy, you'll be caught in a web of confusion and continual questioning. The questions about love and caring are always there--perhaps-- but if the therapist's actions and presence haven't been sufficient to give that assurance, simply getting an"answer" won't either. Of course, it's an issue to discuss at times-- if we're talking about the security of the attachment--,, possibly even a lot, if done from the point of view of wondering why or how it's so up for grabs in your mind and what in your history or present created/or creates it-- When it's about "having feelings" of the type that I think widget means, a lot of suffering and even harm lies down that path. Again, that's not to say that the issue can't be usefully and even crucially discussed-- but only to say that if the discussion only revolves around "how do you (the therapist) really feel" it isn't a a long term strategy for growth or healing.
Willful
Posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 16:16:33
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by Daisym on April 3, 2010, at 2:16:00
Dear Daisym, Thank you for you kind and thoughtful response. My therapist would agree with you that anything can be discussed in therapy. He has told me that the worst thing to do in a situation involving "transference" (his words, not mine) is to NOT talk about it. According to him, that is when it is most likely to be acted out.
I do not see myself as selfish and hope I would not label others as I have been labelled. I am really trying to work this out. I am very respectful to my therapist and my husband.
Thanks for the good luck wish on Monday. I do believe all will be well.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2010, at 20:07:30
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 16:16:33
I guess what I'm most struck by is the notion that you are choosing to have these feelings - that you are being "selfish" (to quote Emilyp)by choice - on purpose. As if your therapist is "just" another man that could be compared to your husband - like you would ever be so intimate with another male in any other situation. As if you wouldn't change how you feel if you could.
This is what needs to be worked through - it needs to be understood in the context of you, your history and all your other relationships. I'm glad you have such a safe place to struggle with this. I hope you don't let the way you've been labeled deter you from the struggle. It sounds so important.
Posted by widget on April 5, 2010, at 7:10:54
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2010, at 20:07:30
Dear Daisym, Thank you so much for your validation. No, I am not choosing to have these feeling. In fact, I told my therapist I wish is could simply have this part of me "cut out", surgically, of course. I can only tell you that the feelings are compelling yet I do understand what makes therapy safe. And, I do know my therapist is totally safe.
I have been rather dreading today's session. Yesterday was a tough day as the time approached.
I'll let you know what happens and know that it will not be as big a deal as my imagination is making it. You have been a godsend. Thanks for being there!
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:10:11
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 5, 2010, at 7:10:54
((Widget))): As i told my t: i certainly didn't go into therapy (it was for a church dispute), hoping I could complicate my life by falling in love with him.
7 years later, the feelings are the same.
It would have been better for ME, if he had never let me know of his struggles with his feelings for me.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:15:35
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:10:11
Dear Sassyf, If you feel you can tell me, why did that make it more difficult for you? I would really like to know to apply it to my situation. Thanks so much for sharing!
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:42:40
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:15:35
Because then it wasn't just MY feelings, but having to wonder and deal with HIS stuff.....stuff happened last night and I am very upset...long story; I basically walked out angry and hurt. For 7 years, after we are done, I sit on the couch while he writes his notes and then we leave together.....it seems he wants to change this and have me leave when we are done. Fels very cruel to me. I have had enough chaos and change in my life to last a lifetime.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:45:58
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 5, 2010, at 7:10:54
Dear Daisym, I am somewhat confused about my session with therapist on Monday. He began by talking about my issues with safety and, basically, showed me what had been missing in my childhood that makes safety such a huge issue. I certainly agreed with him. I asked him if this was the cause of my feelings for him and he said that he did not want to invalidate my feelings.
ok. But, then, toward the end of the session, he said that I did not know him well enough to love him. That I only knew him in therapy. He said real love means embracing every aspect of the other person. This confuses me as he had previously said he would not invalidate my feelings but it sure felt like it. I was speechless.
It wasn't until that evening that I got extremely angry with him. I do feel invalidated. I have always felt he was very respectful of what I say and this statement he made felt like the ultimate trump card on his part. After all, he is correct; I don't know the everyday him. Therefore, my feelings are invalid? I see him tomorrow and don't know how to talk to him about this. It will definitely affect the therapy. And, it makes me see him as high-handed, judgemental, and arrogant! Do you have any advice? Thanks! Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:47:49
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:45:58
To Daisym, I took so long in writing this because I was so upset and unsure how to present it!
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:52:07
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:47:49
Dear Sassy, I am really sorry about what you are going through. It sounds so hurtful. I appreciate that you could share this with me. I suppose that would be the down side to having the therapist reveal his feelings. It would change the dynamic; I just wondered exactly how it changed it as I don't imagine I will ever find out. Sincerely, Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:54:14
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:52:07
Sassy, do you feel powerless to do anything about what he requests in your situation? Is that what happens, too? The therapist is still in charge? I'm trying to put myself in your position. widget
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:57:57
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:45:58
((Widget)) I would tell him you felt/feel invalidated, and that you love who/what you PERCEIVE him to be. Love is real...You love what you know and feel about him.
You don't have to totally know anyone to love them.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:18:44
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:57:57
Dear sassy, Those are wise words. Just because I don't happen to meet HIS criteria for "love" does not mean my feelings are not real. It does mean that he cannot take my feelings seriously because of his definition of love. And, I guess, in all fairness, I must aceept that as I am trying to take people as they are. It is interesting to me that he threw that statement in at the end and why he did. Maybe to stop me from any more questions? I mean, it all seemed so final and a done-deal. With one statement, he ended the issue. Thanks! Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:22:42
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:18:44
Hi,sassy, I just re-read your message and when he said what HIS rules are for love, I felt like saying, "oh, yeah, so what?" In other words, who made him the boss of love (except for himself). And, if that is his definition, that's that. I feel really tired to arguing the issue with him. My other response would have been, "I get it; I give up; you win). Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:26:12
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:22:42
Can anyone tell me if it is true that you don't have to know everything about a person to feel love for that person? Does not knowing EVERYTHING automatically invalidate love? I was so confused by this that I have been looking up definitions of love on Goggle. I seem to meet the criteria. Widget
Posted by Daisym on April 7, 2010, at 13:35:16
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:26:12
You feel what you feel - the labels don't really matter. What one person calls "love" another might call "caring" and another might call "need" and another might call "lust." Each of us has a concept of what love is and what it feels like to us.
I think therapy love is real and very powerful. And yet fragile too. Your therapist says he cares about you but he only knows you for the same hour a week that you know him - you talk more but you choose what to tell and how to tell it - so how does he REALLY know you? The consistent interaction of another tells us a lot about them. And I think therapists often underestimate the observation powers of clients - we see, hear and feel lots of under currents. You love your therapist as your therapist. You might not love him as just a "man" - but that is irrelevent. It isn't the relationship you have and it isn't what you are working towards.
He made you doubt yourself and your feelings. I think in therapy, we are working on trusting ourself, identifying our feelings and coping with them. When I feel rage at my dad - I'm allowed to feel it completely in therapy. I wouldn't take the murdurous components of it out into the real world. And yet, no one would ever tell me, "you aren't really that mad."
So - best advice I have is to go in, tell him you are mad, tell him why and then be quiet. Let him own it. If he is anything like my therapist, he'll likely apologize, and really try to understand your feelings. I think sometimes it is hard for our therapists to see us suffering and so they say things that feel invalidating or minimizing because they are trying to make us feel better.
I actually asked my therapist if he ever developed strong feelings for his own therapist (when he was in training) - and he said yes. He said his issues were different from mine but he still wanted/needed his therapist's caring and attention. He often says to me, "who doesn't want to be cared about?"
I'm sorry this is so hard. Good luck.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 18:35:29
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2010, at 13:35:16
Dear Daisym, Thank you so much for your encouraging and insightful response. It is best, of course, for me to do as you said and I want to!
I have a very difficult time with confrontations. This will be especially hard given whom I am confronting. I hate to keep asking you for help but do you have any idea how to begin? Usually, I go into the room, sit down, he sits down, he looks at me very seriously and asks "How are you?" And, it goes from there. I have a sense I need to verbalize then as we can easily be sidetracked and I can easily decide to let it go, at least for now. I don't think that is wise. Of course, I don't have to be argumentative and hostile. I can be calm and just state how I feel. Thanks, Daisym for your validation. Sincerely, Widget
Posted by emmanuel98 on April 7, 2010, at 20:21:57
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 18:35:29
I loved my T desperately and would tell him and he said that I didn't really love him because I didn't really know him. That love meant putting another's needs first and that's not what I wanted from him. I said I love you the way my daughter loves me and he said that's not love, it's dependence. That I need him more than he needs me. I found this very painful but ultimately true. I would not have been a good friend or lover to him, had he allowed it. I'd have wanted to bask in his attention and follow him around like a puppy. That's a kind of love, but a very immature love. Not a love between two equally placed adults.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2010, at 21:32:48
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:26:12
I think maybe he didn't express what he was trying to say well. If my therapist had said that (which he would have if I didn't say it for him, I'm sure), he'd have meant it as a comment about himself. Not as an invalidation of my feelings. He'd be saying that his clients see the best side of him. That at home, he's not endlessly patient. He is unreasonable, profligate, and leaves his stuff lying everywhere. (I'm just guessing here.)
People fall in love all the time with people they don't know at all. And most of us care about people that we only know in one context. If we didn't, we couldn't love hardly anyone, since the number of people we live with is necessarily small.
Certainly we don't have the sort of relationship with our therapists that would tell any of us if we'd like them as a long term companion. Or as I tell my husband, you never really know anyone until you've gone on a (preferably difficult) vacation together. (He married me anyway!)
I've always been very clear with my therapist. I do love him in a filial sort of way. Very much. I do want the best for him. But I don't want the best for him if it's at my expense. I don't want the best for him if it means he abandons me.
I think children do love their parents, even if they also are dependent on them. It's just a different sort of love...
Still, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be angry with him. Even if he didn't mean to invalidate you, he did say something that was bound to hurt. Or at least I'd feel hurt. I always do when I run smack dab into the boundaries and limitations of our relationship. In fact, I did earlier this week, and it hurt like the dickens.
Posted by Dinah on April 11, 2010, at 7:57:15
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 18:35:29
I've been thinking about you, and hope things go well with you tomorrow.
Posted by nellie7 on April 14, 2010, at 11:30:55
In reply to Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 1, 2010, at 17:41:07
Having feelings for a T is similar to falling in love with the character played by an actor. Ts are trained to be empathic, understanding and to say the right thing. It is part of their job and the role they play with each of their patients, regardless of how they feel about them.
The client knows nothing about what the T is really like, unless, of course, he fails to play his part as expected. The "relationship" is one-sided, with the client paying in order to be helped by accessing knowledge and skills obtained in a formal way.
In my opinion, there are many factors that make this relationship problematic. Perhaps sometime in the future a computer program will be available to replace Ts. That would probably be the ideal solution, since it would spare clients from having feelings based on fantasy as well as from having to put up with countertransference and other issues actually belonging to the T and not to the client.
By the way, I hope no one is offended by this post. That is definitely not my intention. It's not that I blame Ts- they are being put in a difficult position and have to deal wth unrealistic expectations which are an inevitable outcome of the complicated situation. It simply saddens me to understand that trained people who are theoretically capable of understanding the difficulty involved in living with psychiatric illness or other issues don't really care, while those who are really capable of caring cannot understand. Being mentally ill myself, I have had to learn this lesson the hard way.
Posted by Annierose on April 14, 2010, at 22:06:18
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by nellie7 on April 14, 2010, at 11:30:55
Luckily my therapist would not be easily replaced by a computer program. She is indeed a real human being with real human emotions and most of all, an intellect.
My t is no more playing a "role" than a teacher "teaching" or a mechanic "fixing things". Yes, it is a job, but a very difficult job involving two ALIVE human beings in the process of relating and understanding how one of the individual's thinking and feeling may or may not get in the way of their potetial for success and/or happiness.
Yes, your post is offensive.
Posted by Daisym on April 15, 2010, at 0:41:55
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » nellie7, posted by Annierose on April 14, 2010, at 22:06:18
I agree with everything you wrote, Annie.
Why is it so important for people to point out what the relationship isn't? The idea of therapy is to make use of the relationship that does exist, as it exists, instead of looking at it as something that has a match in a different setting. Would it be easier for people if we are careful to say, "it is a real THERAPY relationship?" I don't know - it seems odd to me that people work really hard to tear it down. I think if it isn't for you - to get attached or whatever - that is fine. But why it bugs people so much is beyond me.
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