![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 2:09:35
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't ) Birdsong((ASP, posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 1:56:19
There is so much to say, but in the interest of civility, I will restrict my comment to this: there is a difference between not feeding someone's symptoms and providing them with the equivalent of tough love. Tough love was bad in the 80s and, thank god, no one talks about tough love any more, except in boot camps, and we know how great a treatment they are. I would not present someone with all their past posts as though to win a point. Boundaries can be set without hurting a person. I didn't see any GIVE in that DEAR MAN you gave.
You have every right to post here. I was just confused about why, since it seemed like you were posting as a therapist, and then, to me, as an expert on the mountain, which, in a context where we are providing peer support, would seem to me to confuse people who have probably experienced a lot of squishy boundaries already.
Your choice to leave. That is not what I was asking you to do, at all.
> First of all, I started to come here like everyone else a couple of months ago, looking for a place to talk about my therapy experience, because I am a client with a therapist who does a very unique form of therapy. I actually post infrequently until recently when I responded to and posted in a couple threads.
> But I am also a child psychologist who did my dissertation evaluating modes of treatment for children with attachment disorders and "difficult diagnoses". I work almost entirely with children who are wards of the state.
>
> 1) I never said that psychoanalytic therapy did not involve unconscious and transference. In fact if you note my first post to Garnet, I posted that Transference Neurosis is specifically a component of psychoanalytic therapy and not psychodynamic therapy. However, psychoanalytic therapy is very different than psychodynamic therapy. Reread my first post.
>
> 2) I am not going to talk anymore about DBT. I have trained from Linehan and her organization. I work in organized DBT circles and have been practicing DBT for over 10 years.
>
> 3) http://health.usnews.com/blogs/on-parenting/2009/06/04/prevent-depression-in-teens-with-cognitive-behavioral-therapy.html
> This study reports the results from a recent study from Vanderbilt University reported in JAMA that basically discusses the success of CBT for depression. There are tons of others going back many years. This one focuses on teens.
>
> 4) I will not respond regarding Deneb anymore. I suggest you look at the pattern and behaviors. And if so many are aware of psychology, they should then recognize that they are feeding the cycle and not helping.
>
> I had privately spoken with Garnet, so I responded to her experience. However, I have asked NUMEROUS times for my account to be deleted......so your concern regarding hearing my story or why I come here, should not be a concern anymore.
Posted by jane d on June 18, 2009, at 5:36:08
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't ) Birdsong((ASP, posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 1:56:19
>
> 3) http://health.usnews.com/blogs/on-parenting/2009/06/04/prevent-depression-in-teens-with-cognitive-behavioral-therapy.html
> This study reports the results from a recent study from Vanderbilt University reported in JAMA that basically discusses the success of CBT for depression. There are tons of others going back many years. This one focuses on teens.I found the description in the linked article annoyingly vague. Here's the abstract itself which isn't much better.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/301/21/2215Neither says how the outcome was measured. Self report and unspecified clinical diagnosis. Of course in depression that's also based on self report. And therein lies the problem with this study and tons of others.
The USNews blurb about the study described cbt as follows.
"Thus if people change how they think about a situation and how they respond to it, they can feel better, even if the situation hasnt changed."
The problem is that it's so easy to teach people to change how they REPORT thinking about a situation and that will change how they score on most checklists used to diagnose depression. Voila! Instant cure.
Perhaps that isn't how depression was measured this time. The abstract doesn't say. It would certainly make a nice change.
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 5:59:03
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't ) Birdsong((ASP, posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 1:56:19
>However, I have asked NUMEROUS times for my account to be deleted......so your concern regarding hearing my story or why I come here, should not be a concern anymore.
Please don't leave.
:-(
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 6:09:12
In reply to Article on CBT for depressed teens » BirdSong, posted by jane d on June 18, 2009, at 5:36:08
I think the true results of CBT are cumulative. It is not the successful reframing of a single event that produces change in depression scores, but the gradual improvement in core beliefs that comes from repeated reframings. It is a top-down therapy rather than a bottom up therapy. Results come rapidly because the automatic negative thoughts are extinguished so quickly. This, in turn, starts the process of improving one's self-esteem as intermediate beliefs become more positive.
It works for me, anyway.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 8:08:30
In reply to Re: Article on CBT for depressed teens, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 6:09:12
Sorry, I know we change subjects on threads all the time, but i feel in crisis and am somehow feeling upset by seeing all the CBT posts and some discussions in this thread about negative things about the type of therapy i'm in...please....
Posted by Nadezda on June 18, 2009, at 8:21:06
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't ) Birdsong, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 0:19:47
Amelie, how can you suggest that someone else not post here-- for any reason?
I appreciate anyone's knowledge and experience-- and to be honest, if someone is a psychologist, they have a lot to offer us in terms of understanding of what we're dealing with and giving us insight into the other side of the fence-- how the world may look to the "other person" we're always imagining things about.
Moreover, I've found Birdsong's posts valuable and helpful-- even we lurkers can get a lot from reading posts and responses here-- and I can't imagine why you would disinvite a helpful person from posting.
If you feel that anyone has violated civility norms, there are steps you can take. But please don't say things like "I'm not sure why you post here regularly..."
Birdsong posts here for the same reason that everyone does-- they have something they want to communicate and wish to benefit from and/or to contribute to the discussion--
no one needs any further reason-- or justification --
gosh. the more there are thoughtful and knowledgeable people, the more we grow. If you don't think someone's adequately informed as to your or our advanced educations-- feel free to inform them-- but don't imply that they aren't welcome.
Nadezda
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 8:48:08
In reply to can you please talk about CBT on another thread?, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 8:08:30
> Sorry, I know we change subjects on threads all the time, but i feel in crisis and am somehow feeling upset by seeing all the CBT posts and some discussions in this thread about negative things about the type of therapy i'm in...please....
Yes. Absolutely. I'm glad you said something.
I hope you are able to resolve things as quickly and painlessly as possible.
- Scott
Posted by sassyfrancesca on June 18, 2009, at 8:52:22
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » BirdSong, posted by garnet71 on June 17, 2009, at 23:11:46
Garnet; I don't know much about it, but I think regression therapy can be very DANGEROUS. I don't understand the thinking behind that. I would NEVER let anyone do that to me.
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 10:16:59
In reply to New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me, posted by garnet71 on June 17, 2009, at 19:55:30
I can't tell you how sorry I am that this is happening to you, that you thought you found someone you could trust and feel safe with enough to open up so quickly. It must be terribly painful for you to feel abandoned so quickly.
Please don't give up. Find another T. They will help you through this. It's common for the goal with a new T is to work through such issues with an old one.
It sounds like to me that he evaluated you, and you got really sucked in, and then he decided because of his own reasons--his issues, not yours--that he couldn't treat you.
I know you feel like he "induced" the transference with you, but please try to consider that you were sucked into it by his whole manner of caring, etc. But you can experience this with another T. I think you really need to try. I know you think he was "perfect" for you, but he is admitting that he can't be, which is a good thing for a T to do instead of lead you on.
I know this, because I've experienced it. I had a male T once agree to treat me for 18 months (the amount of time was irrelevant) and I found myself openng up to him, which I never do with a male, except with the pdoc I have now. I spilled my guts. Then, one day out of the blue, right before my 18 months were to begin, he called me in and told me he couldn't treat me, that he was referring me out to someone else. He never gave me any reason, and wouldn't accept responsibility for having agreed to treat me. I was horrified and it took me a very long time to get over the abandonment. What had I done to make him change his mind? I'll never know, but I do realize now that it was about him, and not me, and he was a complete coward.
But I did get over it. I really encourage you to find someone new to talk to. Find new references and just try it. Please?
antigua
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 11:00:19
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » garnet71, posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 10:16:59
Antigua, how nice of you to share with me. Yes, just as you said, he was 'perfect' for me. I know you understand since something similar, though unique, happened to you. It is so painful.
We had a really nice talk this morning. He had this plan for me before I even came in yesterday and told him about the attachment. He said he never once thought I had any psychosis, and the attachment had absolutely nothing to do with his decision. He said how I took to him WAS unusually intense and quick, but that did not change anything since he already made the decision before I told him all that. He said the whole thing is his age. He's 70. He looks a lot younger, so maybe he thinks I think he is younger though I googled him, but the whole situation is he couldn't be there for me for the time I needed in the course of treatment.
The female he referred me to is in training. He said my insurance would never pay for this type of treatment and that she would work with me anyway. it was inferred the rheumatologist md is in training too, from the things told to me. He has some published research on psychology in conjunction w/childhood illness, i guess this is his area of interest now. It takes many years to become a psychoanalysist, much more in addition to becoming a psychiatrist (which is just one reason why I think so many mental health professionals are against it-just me thinking out loud) and I think this doctor is overseeing people who are in the process of becoming analysts. I can see why some people want to keep the practice from dying out; maybe he is one of them.
He said some endearing things to me and also he said he thought I'm extremely intelligent and really have made good for myself despite all the trauma and have good coping skills and basically that he is putting me on a path to reach my full potential, but it will take time and 3-5 times per week. After we spoke, I felt incredibily bonded to him-but not through the transference, but as 2 humnan beings.
He never even asked for my insurance card or info after all this time, and he just called in my scripts and said he will mail the sch. II one to me. Thinking back, when I initially spoke to him, the plan was to find people who could help me-doctors, therapists, whoever would be best for what I needed. I don't know how it got in my mind I was even his patient to begin with. The whole thing was supposed to be more like my consulting him to determine the best course of treatment, to help me.
It's just so strange how this mirrors my real life-becoming attached to my father, who was totally unavailable my whole life, basically abandoned and left to depend upon my mother and it went from there...He is really persuading me to see this woman, and I will call her. he said she is really great and that I should just give her a chance and that it is imperative I tell her everything I've told him; he really emphasized that. Even when I showed up at his office extremely anxious yesterday, the chairs and tables were moved, his demeanor to me totally different, the lights different, everything. And he acted sort of like he didn't care about me all of the sudden, nonchalantly; it seemed odd he only asked me a few questions he had already asked me last week-questions of major milestones in my life as if he forgot. he takes a lot of notes, so it was a little odd. Like childhood - having no security and dealing with being abandonded by father with the dynamics of the house changed when my parents marraige fell apart, the uneasy atmosphere, and all the uncomfortablness when that happend-then being forced to depend on my mother. It is so strange hos this is mirroring my real life, I guess I can accept it better thinking that way.
But I am grieving for him. I never had a father figure, never had grandfathers, never in my life trusted a man like I trusted him. He is a true gem--extremely skilled, professional, dedicated, intelligent, and compassionate. It seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity to be his patient, so its not just the transference attachment that is getting me, its the rational part of the situation too in finding the right psychiatrist and therapist.
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 11:19:25
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » garnet71, posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 10:16:59
Oh-he said his treament recommendation was based on all my strengths--not any perceived 'weakness'.
Antigua, sorry you never got a direct reason for that T to decline treating you. I can see why some docs would refuse treating a patient-maybe something in your situation reminded him of his own issues and thus would be a conflict of interest so to speak. There are so many things I could think of concerning the analysts own issues...things from religion to similarities to their own traumas could prevent them from being neutral. And analystis have to undergo psychoanlaysis themselves and their cases are supervised. It's highly governed and I can see why since it is a powerful thing and dangers could happen if not monitored closely. I just wish you could have gotten the answers at the time.....
In my case, I realize this doctor already gave me a direct answer. You were totally right-he was just trying to evaluate me to see how I could be helped--and I got extremely sucked in by the overwhelming trust and how he was a perfect fit for me. You are absolutely right.
it just blew my mind that I had more insight from 45 minutes with him than years of therapy. And also that I felt anxiety manifesting in my body, and could place it as repressed thoughts, and it totally changed to grief and left my body. I can even visualize the feelings it was so powerful.
This type of therapy is defintely what will allow me to realize my full potential. I jsut hope i can find someone i connect with like him; i don't think it will ever be the same as with him.
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 18, 2009, at 12:26:48
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » antigua3, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 11:00:19
He sounds like a really, really nice, sweet, intelligent guy. I am sorry this isn't going to work for you. I know what I somewhat controversially suggested (run away from this), but I just want to say that I still support you and your decision and I hope it all works out for you. If he recommends the woman strongly, and you can get basically what amounts to free therapy (if I read correctly), then it's worth a try. One door closes/another opens. Sorry I accidentally hijacked your thread. All best wishes...Amelia
> Antigua, how nice of you to share with me. Yes, just as you said, he was 'perfect' for me. I know you understand since something similar, though unique, happened to you. It is so painful.
>
> We had a really nice talk this morning. He had this plan for me before I even came in yesterday and told him about the attachment. He said he never once thought I had any psychosis, and the attachment had absolutely nothing to do with his decision. He said how I took to him WAS unusually intense and quick, but that did not change anything since he already made the decision before I told him all that. He said the whole thing is his age. He's 70. He looks a lot younger, so maybe he thinks I think he is younger though I googled him, but the whole situation is he couldn't be there for me for the time I needed in the course of treatment.
>
> The female he referred me to is in training. He said my insurance would never pay for this type of treatment and that she would work with me anyway. it was inferred the rheumatologist md is in training too, from the things told to me. He has some published research on psychology in conjunction w/childhood illness, i guess this is his area of interest now. It takes many years to become a psychoanalysist, much more in addition to becoming a psychiatrist (which is just one reason why I think so many mental health professionals are against it-just me thinking out loud) and I think this doctor is overseeing people who are in the process of becoming analysts. I can see why some people want to keep the practice from dying out; maybe he is one of them.
>
> He said some endearing things to me and also he said he thought I'm extremely intelligent and really have made good for myself despite all the trauma and have good coping skills and basically that he is putting me on a path to reach my full potential, but it will take time and 3-5 times per week. After we spoke, I felt incredibily bonded to him-but not through the transference, but as 2 humnan beings.
>
> He never even asked for my insurance card or info after all this time, and he just called in my scripts and said he will mail the sch. II one to me. Thinking back, when I initially spoke to him, the plan was to find people who could help me-doctors, therapists, whoever would be best for what I needed. I don't know how it got in my mind I was even his patient to begin with. The whole thing was supposed to be more like my consulting him to determine the best course of treatment, to help me.
>
> It's just so strange how this mirrors my real life-becoming attached to my father, who was totally unavailable my whole life, basically abandoned and left to depend upon my mother and it went from there...He is really persuading me to see this woman, and I will call her. he said she is really great and that I should just give her a chance and that it is imperative I tell her everything I've told him; he really emphasized that. Even when I showed up at his office extremely anxious yesterday, the chairs and tables were moved, his demeanor to me totally different, the lights different, everything. And he acted sort of like he didn't care about me all of the sudden, nonchalantly; it seemed odd he only asked me a few questions he had already asked me last week-questions of major milestones in my life as if he forgot. he takes a lot of notes, so it was a little odd. Like childhood - having no security and dealing with being abandonded by father with the dynamics of the house changed when my parents marraige fell apart, the uneasy atmosphere, and all the uncomfortablness when that happend-then being forced to depend on my mother. It is so strange hos this is mirroring my real life, I guess I can accept it better thinking that way.
>
> But I am grieving for him. I never had a father figure, never had grandfathers, never in my life trusted a man like I trusted him. He is a true gem--extremely skilled, professional, dedicated, intelligent, and compassionate. It seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity to be his patient, so its not just the transference attachment that is getting me, its the rational part of the situation too in finding the right psychiatrist and therapist.
Posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2009, at 14:16:34
In reply to Article on CBT for depressed teens » BirdSong, posted by jane d on June 18, 2009, at 5:36:08
Haven't read all the posts yet but so far I've learned a lot myself. Phillipa
Posted by antigua3 on June 18, 2009, at 15:02:57
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » antigua3, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 11:19:25
Take all you've learned and GO FOR IT!!!
(sorry about the caps; it's just my enthusiasm showing)Just the fact that you won't be mired in feeling abandoned by him is huge. You did make progress, but more importantly, you know the direction and the next steps you should take.
best of luck,
antigua
Posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 15:38:27
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » antigua3, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 11:19:25
> This type of therapy is defintely what will allow me to realize my full potential. I jsut hope i can find someone i connect with like him; i don't think it will ever be the same as with him.
Of course not.
It is like a first love. He opened up a whole new world for you.
However, that doesn't mean that you won't find someone else who is actually better for you than him - just different.
Sorry for the triteness.
You are enormously gifted for sure. I think whomever you see will have to recognize this and be capable of culturing you to your potential. At the very least, he shall teach you how to culture yourself.
- Scott
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 16:29:12
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » garnet71, posted by SLS on June 18, 2009, at 15:38:27
"It is like a first love. He opened up a whole new world for you"
You sure got that right.
It's just I've been bawling my eyes out, having to resist urges to call him and ask him for comfort..and for his help in dealing with this attachment. I want to talk to him so badly. But I don't want to cross any of his boundaries calling him, perhaps bothering him. I want to hug him. I've never felt urges to hug a therapist before. I want to help clean his disorganized office, do something fun like redecorate it together. And I was going to ask him if he'd teach me about the unconsciousness, object relations, and psychology in general. I want to ask him to help me write one of my papers for school. I feel so pathetic.
But now it feels like I'm reliving my childhood scenerio, abandoned by my father, now having to depend on the female therapist, my mother. My mother was never there for me, didn't protect me, neglected me, and left me to fend for myself so I turned in to an adult when I was very young and only remember feeling like I didn't need anyone. It seemed my mother wanted us all to die, that we ruined her life. He sure made me realize I do have needs, which were unmet by both parents, brought up from my unconsciousness he exposed so well. I wanted him to know everything from my unconsciousness; as scary as that seems to me, he is the only one I want to share it with. I have little to no ego around him, just uninhibitness, a childlike playfulness.
I still want a male therapist though. Idon't feel I've ever had adverse issues with female friends, am heterosexual, and think I need to work with a male to help me deal with the childhood fatherly dynamics to be capable of a mature, seasoned love with a partner someday. I remember, though, reading about theory long ago, that there's a female and male aspect to each gender.
I finally called the female therapist, left a message. But I all i want to talk to her about is him. I'm grieving so much. I've known this doctor for only 3 hours total out of my entire life, yet felt more closly bonded to him than any other male in my entire life. It's scary and wonderful at the same time.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on June 18, 2009, at 16:54:41
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't ) » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Nadezda on June 18, 2009, at 8:21:06
> If you feel that anyone has violated civility norms, there are steps you can take. But please don't say things like "I'm not sure why you post here regularly..."
Hi Nadezda.
I just wanted to remind you that if you see a post that you feel violates civility guidelines, please use the reporting function.
Dr. Bob has been suggesting that posters encourage other posters to work things out or apologize, but he has been clear that this does not mean that the civility rules are not in effect. I'm sure he'll clarify more on the topic as it develops.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob.
Posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 17:03:47
In reply to Please follow site guidelines » Nadezda, posted by Deputy Dinah on June 18, 2009, at 16:54:41
>Quick "attachment"...intense attachment as you displayed immediately can signify "certain diagnoses,"
My experience, and also the experience of some others, was that the right kind of psychodynamic therapist could create attachment, or the conditions for it, remarkably quickly.
Doubtless we would have qualified for a label, but no one mentioned labels back then, certainly not to the patients.
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 18:33:26
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by Sigismund on June 18, 2009, at 17:03:47
Most everyone (if not everyone?) as an infant and needy child "attaches" to their caregiver(s) and strongly before you are old enough to mentally process it. When your adult mind is in the state of a 2, 3, 4...year old, your ego removed and unconsciousness exposed if you allow youself to let this happen, you are going to attach to the person encouraging it; the person you are feeling transference with, the person in the room you are relecting your transference off while they are in blank state. If an anylist has the ability to help regress you to that state, and mine did easily, he is so quick with the probing an responses in assessing my reactions, that I am not allowed time to "think" thus process through my ego....and if you are receptive to that person, you will become immediately attached. It's attachment based theory and is used by more classic analysts and who else i don't know.
Not that I know much about it, I really don't, only have read some things. But when many of you educated in psychology discuss my situation, and though I really appreciate it, it sounds like you are not that familiar with the more classical psychoanalytic techniques at all. It sounds like the things you are saying having nothing to do with the psychonalyst perspective where transference is used as one of the main tools, and that my intense transference and attachment would be useful and encouraged and used as a main tool by post-freudian, but freudian based theorists, classic analysts. how I reacted makes me an ideal candidate for this type of therapy - What can be a barrier to some analysts, as I've read, is when the person resists the transference and attachment by strong resistance or not being able to trust, not breaking down defense mechnaisms - though that is worked with to, turned around to facilitate the therapy, though frustrating to these types of analysts. i think a skilled analyst can manipulate this though becaue I can now see how it's done.
I love this bottom up type of thing; I believe in a lot of that old theory, how our unconciousness shapes our lives and that our relaations with our parents during our most vulnerable years shapes us today. I used to read about Freud with interest when I was a kid, but don't remember much , but do remember some of it abstractly, and want to get back into it. I'm interested in all the sexual stuff too, theories that are 'controversial' or ignored in the mental health professions and have no issues discussing such things with an analyst-male or female-who I trust. It's natural and if you believe in some of those theories, it can be enlightening. I had already started to gain some insights into these sexual feelings over the past 2 days, but didn't have a chance to talk to him about it, with ending our relationship last session and all.
Since I don't go around 'attaching' to strangers outside of being in a trance, the altered state of consciousness to that of a 2-4 year old with a very skilled, experienced psychoanalyst, the only way I can explain it in uneducated terms, is that he had my unconsciousness totally exposed. I can now picture the layers of my ego being peeled away as he talked to me and probed me, it was a fuzzy grey layer - i can see it being removed before my unconsciounness was totally exposed. It was the strangest, most fascinating feeling, that's what happend right before I attached to him. I regressed to a 2 years old, maybe 4 at the most. I was in the mindset of an infant or small child, I even remember making weird facial movements, and not being able to process information/cognition like a baby or small child--only feel--which he was observing.
The feeling is so powerful and I don't really think he expected me have that reaction, take to him so soon, to put down all my guard, to trust him, and have that intense reaction since I hardly knew him and have trust issues which I told him.
I, too, read about the ability of analysts to do this to people. It's kind of scary-very powerful, but I thought it was fascinating. If you overwhelming trust the therapist like I did, so that your defenses are easily dismantled, adn the analyist is skilled and experienced, i think it's inevitable.
The inferrence of 'certain diagnoses" by anyone, whatever they may be, does not bother me the least bit, and this psychiatrist said i have done remarkably well and have healthy coping skills, which I've already recognized and gained insights about- from 45 mintues with him.
I think the misunderstandings I've read here are good examples of how few mental health people know anything about more classic oriented psychoanalysis (and either do I but I know it is not waht is spoken of here. Though Amelia, you say you've been w/a classic analyst? When I get finished with the semester, I'm going to buy a book about it. I can't wait. I am so into it. I've always had this curiousity, but now revived. Maybe the intellectual curiousity allows me to be more into it and feel more positive about it than some.
I appreciate everyone's input, and Amelia for mentioned CBT for PTSD, and Birdsong's analysis, and the support and empathy from everyone, along with the input from those who see my experience(s) as a red flag. I am 100% comfortable with this type of therapy-it is just what I need. I mean to gain the insight of phsycial manifestations of your anxiety, the place in your body it is hiding and trying to emerge from, and recognize as that anxiety caused by repressing and ignoring emotions for years is phsyically transforming to grief and than just poof - disappear- is amazing. I also see clearly how past transference on my part and the countertransference of very narcissistic men has led to relationships with them. I have had many authoritiy figures such as many bosses, and/or narcissitic men pursue me regularly and have been repeatedly told how I make them feel young, alive, and like a teenager again. I now believe that has all come from my transference. Not nearly as powerful as I experienced iwth this doctor, but I can see so clearly how this transference that stems from childhood issues has been the basis of all dysfunctional relationships and attractions I have had. See it clearly and remarkably--yet, only from this short encounter. I can only imagine the other insights I will gain. There are more too, but I have already written too much.
I called the female analyst-she works in his building and knows my doctor from the local psychoanalyst association. She's only been doing it for 6 years, but has been a therapist for 30. I'm thankful to find out she's experienced. I don't expect anyone to be as skilled as this guy was, but spoke to her and set up an appt. for Monday. I had a good feeling just from our brief conversation, in that our personalities were compatible. He spoke very highly of her too, so since I trust him, I'm definitely going to take his recommendations. I'm also hoping he can still be my Pdoc-do my pharmaceutical management and maybe just talke sometimes, but didn't ask him yet. Maybe the 3 of us could also work together sometimes, considering my attachment to him and all the childhood dynamics with both mother and father and since he is the one who oversees her cases, from what it sounded like.
If anyone is listening-thank you. I am trying to put aside the grief I'm feeling for a while since its so overwhelming. I can't obsess about it, so talking about the intellectual aspects of it may help for the time being. I am going to try my best to save up all the emotion for Monday when I meet with her.
But going back to original question in mind-analysts ability to induce this attachment state-yes, I've read that too. I don't think he was trying to be manipulative with me, just trying to get to my inner core as a source of discovery for my underlying issues so that he could make a determinition of my diagnosis and course of treatment necessary; and especially my ability to be a candidate for psychoanalysis, which I definitely am. It just was unusually intense and not expected so soon. The emergency of strong dynamics between him and I were not totally planned by him this soon as he was only gathering my history, I believe, but are important now that they have been discovered and will help me realize my potential.
I can understand why some may be triggered by this type of therpy and why some are against it. It is extremely powerful and can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Have a T that fits me means eveything to me, and could have made a difference with others, I believe, if they had the right analyst. I can see how some f'ed up people would enter this field, and the possibility they might is scary; but it is very regulated as I had mentioned before. Psychoanalysis technqiues can be used to control or manipulate people, to put it harshly. Doesn't matter who you are, you could be the strongest person in the world and still be affected w/a skilled and experienced analyst.
So I do want to clarify that-no experienced analysist would turn me away based on this "strong attachment" and transference; it is quite the oppositite. Reason to be turned away though, is when an analyst is not skilled or experienced with dealing with countertransference. If they can't manage it enough to use it as a tool, if it gets in the way to cloud their work and judgment, then it would be a problem. But my reaction would be most welcome by any good psychoanalyst. I think some of what was said here led to the fears I originally had of him telling me he wouldn't want to see me anymore if I told him of the attachment--that was not the case at all. It was my fear of parental rejection and childhood issues, along with the reoroginazation of the office where everything was "off", and of course all stemming from the attchment that led to extreme anxiety when I entered his office yesterday. The first thing he asked me was why I was so anxious, what thoughts I had that led me to feel that way. I immediately told him I was scared he was going to tell me he didn't want to see me anymore-and he acted a odd through the rest of the session, not doing the blank state, knowing he had planned to tell me he was referring me to someone else. But anyone who said my intense attachment was an issue inovlved in his decision-was way off. When he said it was highly unusual to happen so soon and so intensely, I realize he didn't have a plan for me in dealing with that all.
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 18:35:56
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 18:33:26
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 19:25:33
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » SLS, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 16:29:12
So I have an appt. monday with a new psychoanalyst. I think i'm going to ask her if we could just use monday to deal with this attachment thing though, and not go through history yet. I need to get this out of my system.
Posted by emmanuel98 on June 18, 2009, at 19:53:07
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me » SLS, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 16:29:12
Boy do I relate to that (wanting a male T). I found my T through the insurance company's lists and I never even considered a female. I really wanted a father figure. Have you considered just interviewing some other T's on your insurance list?
> I still want a male therapist though. Idon't feel I've ever had adverse issues with female friends, am heterosexual, and think I need to work with a male to help me deal with the childhood fatherly dynamics to be capable of a mature, seasoned love with a partner someday. I remember, though, reading about theory long ago, that there's a female and male aspect to each gender.
>
> I finally called the female therapist, left a message. But I all i want to talk to her about is him. I'm grieving so much. I've known this doctor for only 3 hours total out of my entire life, yet felt more closly bonded to him than any other male in my entire life. It's scary and wonderful at the same time.
>
>
Posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 20:24:20
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 18:33:26
Garnet,
Please reread my posts regarding transference and my response to your very first post about this whole issue as well.
I apologize if you think I was implying that the reason your p-doc was not working with you was because of your transference reactions and attachment. I clearly stated several times that your p-doc is not working with you because the issue is with him...ie, old, not going to be available for intensive therapy for years, etc.While at times, an immediate attachment as your p-doc said "unusually quick" can signify certain diagnoses, that does not imply anything regarding you and why your analyst would not work with you.
Therapists can "do things" that intensify transference, some on purpose (not calling a client back) and some accidently (having to cancel an appointment with little notice); however things that are done on purpose are generally thought about and at times documented to ensure that the client is at a point to deal with the reaction that will develop.......BUT, transference exists in our everyday lives and does not have to be induced by a therapist or analyst. We replay and react based on transference. So, pretend you had a mother who consistently put you down and told you that you were stupid. Now, let's say you have a teacher that gives you back an assignment with a bad grade and glances at you in a way that you interpret to be a put-down. Was the teacher really looking at you as a put-down or are you reacting to transference based on your experience with your mother??Working through the transference that develops is how your unconscious mind works to fix your reactions. Your defense mechanism (regression, suppression, etc) exist to protect you from the unconscious getting conscious. Everyone has different defense mechanism and each person responds to a transference reaction differently. Some regress, some dissociate, some deny, some get angry, etc.
Please note: Regression therapy is not psychoanalytic therapy. Regression therapy is more solution focused.
A good analyst, a good psychodynamic T, a good play-therapy T, never turns a client away because of the intensiveness of the transference. As I said the first day to you, "Wow, this is fun!"....because the theory is based in believing in the power of the unconscious mind and what you bring to the room and react to.
But, good Ts or analysts WILL turn away a client if they (a) do not have time to keep themselves well, (b) will harm other clients by having too many, and (c) if the T recognizes that the client needs more than can be offered, because of time, life changes, etc.
I would like to direct you to the International Psychoanalytical Association (IPA). There is some interesting information and possible reading that you might enjoy.
One thing I think that at times many people confuse is the difference between true analysis and psychodynamic therapy. Analysis is usually done 3-4-5 times a week laying on a couch with a "blank slate/quiet" analyst. It is classic Freud theory with adult clients or Melanie Klein theory with play in children.
In analysis, the analyst "listens" while the client free associates and brings forth anything that comes to their mind.Psychodynamic therapy is usually done 2-3 times a week sitting face to face with a T who is more engaged with the client. The T "listens" but the T also responds.
In both settings, transference is very important. But, in analysis, because of the "therapeutic frame and setting" and the contact time, the transference develops a more intense quality to it and yes, it can become a TN.
Children attach in many styles. As adults those styles remain if not dealt with in therapy. So, one's attachment style will also come out in the transference and the relationship. I suggest looking into attachment styles, both from a child perspective and an adult perspective, as it will also provide you good insight into what is occurring/occurred.
Now, I responded to your post the way I did because your post was insightful and knowledgable. I did not respond to come across as a "smarty-pants" ~ but I know you and others can understand and perhaps then wish to research further. If I thought you were an idiot, I would not have responded like this. You are clearly interested in understanding analysis and perhaps the theories behind it all.
Best of luck with your new analyst. It is hard work, but if you have the insight, which it seems you do, and the coping skills to do analysis, you will come out a different person. Trust me.
It might cost a small fortune....but that is another story.
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 20:46:24
In reply to Re: New psychiatrist/analyst can't treat me, posted by emmanuel98 on June 18, 2009, at 19:53:07
Well my insurance is not going to pay for this type of treatment, 3-5 times per week, and long term; I know few do. Doc also gave me referal of a current medical doctor who is male and going for his psychoanalyst certification.
He gave me these names because 1) he said they are good 2) they can give me some kind of reduced fee arrangement
But since he strongly recommended her, I'll try the female analyst and see. I'll give her a try and try to be open minded. yeah, know whatcha mean!
Posted by garnet71 on June 18, 2009, at 21:15:19
In reply to Re: Please follow site guidelines, posted by BirdSong on June 18, 2009, at 20:24:20
Thanks for all the great information; nothing you said to me sounds condescending, although I have already learned about many of those concepts you explained.
I guess one distinction is these doctors are certified psychoanalysts, but this one I know has adopted and integrated other eclectic approaches (i.e. psychodynamic therapy). The integration of theory is interesting, as little as I know about it. But I think the old school psychoanalyictic theories are still behind the clinical views of practice despite the integration. That's a sign of a good doctor too, willing to change based upon new research and new methods. But I would guess one's training and education does stick with them.
Some have implied that transference and the attachment, especially at the level I experienced it, is unhealthy; both here and what I've seen on other support forums, reseach papers, mental health blogs, etc.; perhaps I mixed up something you said with that of someone else.
The quick/intense attachment was due to trusting him 100%, the safety I felt with him, the immediate sense of connection due to something unrealated, his skill level, and my decision to quit carrying the burden of my medical care and mental health issues, but rather, this time, allow myself to let it go - with complete faith that another human being, a gifted doctor, and this individual in particular could take over that burden and heal me as I see it.
How many patients new to this therapy like me, are going to view a stranger, an analyst in blank state, in such a way? To me, it explains everything. If I did not already have preconceived notions of him, I most likely would have thought the whole thing was strange and uncomfortable, and never would have been allow myself to trust him, allow my defense mechanisms to melt, expose my unconscious to this person - after seeing that blank state behavior-and he is very good at it. I mean I read people all the time and his eyes revealed nothing. That posture and body language certainly would have taken away my instinctual feelings of trust had I not had my preconceived notions about this doctor, and things that were reaffirmed during our first meeting by his professionalism and approach.
There's a story behind it that I don't want to post right now, but the connection I had with him stems from my belief system, perhaps a little magical thinking and spirituality. Did you ever encounter an individual who left a moving, lasting impression upon you? Did you ever have feelings that something is just "meant to be"? I also don't think anyone can deny that in many professions, there are truly gifted, inspiring, and dedicated people who are set apart from others. He is one of those people. I have met very few in my lifetime. I really think there are some doctors out there with a natural disposition of true compassion and a natural gift for healing. There are way more who get into the field for the wrong reasons. It's like that.
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