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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 1:28:48
In reply to The L word with T?, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 12:31:16
Hi Jay,
I think it is both important and potentially extremely rewarding to fight your fears and say the L word to her. Remember that ultimately, she is the stand-in for what will hopefully be people in your life that you will be able to love. Wouldn't you want to say that to someone in your life and feel safe, comfortable, and authentic? To do that, if you've had wounds in that area as you have, takes both practice and working through your fears. Your T will be very happy to hear those words from you because she knows how hard they are for you and that it means progress in moving toward the courage and choice to work through fears of intimacy. I am confident, from what you've said about her, that she will not handle it badly. And it's true, that the session in which the L word first appears, remains memorable and special for both participants (isn't it true of most love relationships?). I'd consider it a real sign of progress that you have let yourself feel this for her and are becoming able to talk about some of your deepest and most important feelings. This will also make it easier to say other important but difficult things to her and also search beyond the L word for deeper meanings of intimacy for you.
So go for it, Jay. I think the risk will more than be repaid many times over.
Hugs,
Lucie
Posted by JoniS on November 23, 2008, at 11:01:03
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » Wittgensteinz, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 18:26:27
Hi JayMac,
I have enjoyed reading this post. It sounds like your t relationship is going well and I think you're in a good place. It's wonderful when therapy is generating a closeness, trustfulness.
I love what Witti said too. It did make me cry!
This week I told my t AGAIN that I was "in love" with him. I've told him before that I love him, probably 5-6 times over the past 5 and a half years. This week he was sort of pushing me, but I sometimes need that, to be pushed to get it out. But my t says if you speak it (whatever the stuff is in your head) it takes away it power (meaning power in a bad way, like power holding me back). But I'm not sure it really took away any power for me. I still hurt tremendously, and in large part I think, from unrequited love.
Keep up the good work!
Joni
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 12:52:25
In reply to Re: The L word with T?, posted by Dinah on November 22, 2008, at 22:34:37
Attachment is difficult! It's been hard work lately. We've had some ups and downs.
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 12:55:57
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 1:28:48
Thank you Lucie!!! Yeah.....I don't know when I wank to tell her. I only see her once this week (tomorrow). I'm thinking I'll tell her when I see her twice in a week. Hopefully I'll tell her one day, and we can talk about it the next. Lol....knowing me, I'll tell her and quickly change the subject. But who knows?! I may say it without even thinking. Maybe that's the way to go, then I don't have all the anxiety built up. I'm a total freak when it comes to telling people these sorts of big deal things.
Hugs to you as well!
Posted by frida on November 23, 2008, at 12:56:38
In reply to The L word with T?, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 12:31:16
Hi!
I've seen my T for a long time now, and I have told her that I love her.
I haven't told her many times out loud and I don't think I told her face to face, but I have by email and phone. And when we talk face to face she takes for granted I do love her and refers to that sometimes in a positive way and saying she loves me back.For me, it did make it more real and she was glad I could see her more human and express those feelings..she said that after all we've shared , of course she feels love too..
It was very nice to tell her those words the times i could on the phone.
She responded wonderfully.I hope you can tell your T , too...
it is difficult, but such a wonderful thing to express.
Frida
Posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 13:02:51
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » lucie lu, posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 12:55:57
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 13:08:58
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » JayMac, posted by JoniS on November 23, 2008, at 11:01:03
Thanks! Overall, it has been going well. There have been many times lately where I've doubted her and myself and the whole process.
My T says the same thing about saying things aloud. I'm learning. It's relieving though.
Thank you Joni!!
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 13:22:32
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » JayMac, posted by frida on November 23, 2008, at 12:56:38
Frida,
Thanks for the support!I've been thinking about signing an email "Love, 'my name.'" It's subtle but not so subtle.
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 13:27:09
In reply to The L word with T?, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 12:31:16
It's ironic, but I think I'm MORE fearful of her RESPONSE than telling her. I know that she won't kick me out of the room or tell me I'm imagining things. I'm sure she will say something meaningful. I'm scared. I'm not even sure what I'm fearful of.
Not sure if this matters: I had a dream last night that this person (representing my mom or someone who's supposed to love me) kept reprimanding me for everything I did. Nothing I did was good enough. Maybe I don't feel good enough to even be having these feelings toward her? Or maybe I don't feel worthy of her love? Which is actually somewhat true. Or maybe I don't feel like my love should matter because it's not perfect. I don't know......
Posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 14:29:13
In reply to Re: The L word with T? Irony., posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 13:27:09
How about if you write down the dream (so you don't forget), bring it with you and use that as an entry into the subject? It may be easier initially to express what your fears are rather than just trying to push through them. Sometimes a lateral approach allows you to go farther on the first try than a head-first :)Lucie
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 14:51:58
In reply to Re: The L word with T? Irony. » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 14:29:13
That's a great suggestion! I wish it weren't for me!!! Lol....maybe, maybe I'll try that. I'm getting nervous just thinking about it....I see her tomorrow and then not for 10 days. That's a long time in my world. I don't know if I can say such a thing and then not see her for a while. Or maybe that will help.
I know ya'll are saying, "Just do it, you'll be happy once you do."
I want to go in tomorrow and write it down pass her the note. Like in grade school! Lol......I make myself laugh :P
Posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 15:21:15
In reply to Re: The L word with T? Irony. » lucie lu, posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 14:51:58
Well, this is just me but... I'm not sure I would put too much pressure on a session that will be followed by 10-day hiatus. Maybe you can just discuss the dream, which you've already produced, and let her do the rest of the work tomorrow (lol). I would probably try not to do anything that would arouse my anxieties (more than usual) and maybe also spend a few minutes talking about how the 10 days can be made more tolerable for you and feeling secure until you see her again. Again, that's just based on my own issues.
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 16:16:26
In reply to Re: The L word with T? Irony. » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 15:21:15
Posted by DAisym on November 23, 2008, at 18:56:46
In reply to Re: The L word with T? Irony. » JayMac, posted by lucie lu on November 23, 2008, at 15:21:15
I was struck by what Lucie said about the therapist being a stand in and how eventually one should move to expressing loving feelings to someone IRL. And I thought, "well yes, I guess that is the ultimate goal. But what if the love you feel for your therapist is really for THEM and generated BY them?" So I've been thinking about this.
Of course, transference exists in all relationships. How could it not? But I do think that we can have strong loving feelings for our therapist that they have "earned" if I can say it that way. I think, perhaps, that is why their response is so important and carries so much anxiety for all of us. We want them to accept our love - not necessarily return it. We want them to know it is for them and for them to take it in and hold it. And I think we want them to acknowledge that this capacity we have to love them and to trust them enough to express the love, is a frightening, wonderful thing. I think loving is as powerful as being loved. It is incredible to know you can feel so deeply and it is even more incredible when they accept your love as special and OK - not something to run from or something that will taint them. Because isn't it really a step toward growth - to be able to love someone who has been kind and helpful to you?
Just some rambling musings after a long weekend.
Good luck with this.
Daisy
Posted by onceupon on November 23, 2008, at 20:54:46
In reply to The idea of a stand-in, posted by DAisym on November 23, 2008, at 18:56:46
I couldn't agree with this more, Daisy. I think that, in addition to a transference-based relationship, we certainly have real relationships with our therapists too. I feel like I'm on the edge of loving my therapist, if that's possible. But even that feels like a step in the right direction.
Posted by onceupon on November 23, 2008, at 20:59:57
In reply to The L word with T?, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 12:31:16
I find it quite courageous of you to consider telling your therapist, out loud, that you love her. It's the out loud part that really impresses me :)
Years ago, when I was seeing a different therapist, I got to the point where I told her I felt "loving feelings" towards her. Somehow that felt less threatening than telling her outright that I loved her. I added that I hoped to feel love from her in return (just a therapy kind of love). I don't remember exactly how she responded, just that I felt both relieved that I had said it, and disappointed that her response seemed lacking. Over time I came to appreciate that my therapist cared about me a great deal. And she did tell me at one point that she felt kind of like a big sister towards me. She never did tell me she loved me though. And that's OK, I guess, in that I certainly wouldn't want her to say something that she didn't feel. It made me think, though, about how everyone feels a little differently about the word "love." Sometimes it can seem so loaded in a therapy setting, even when I don't think it has to.
Posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 21:34:05
In reply to Re: The L word with T?, posted by onceupon on November 23, 2008, at 20:59:57
Once,
Thank you! I sure hope I will gather all my courage to tell her!!I enjoyed reading your post. One thing I'm afraid of is the fact that she won't reciprocate. She's told me that I have an effect on her. She's shown me that she cares. I can see it in her eyes.
I don't know why, but I feel like I'm having these feelings rather prematurely. I've only been seeing her for 6 months. In psychoanalytic terms, we've just begun!!! Yet, I feel like I've been with her for so much longer than that. This is difficult to put in words.
Posted by lucie lu on November 24, 2008, at 12:34:12
In reply to The idea of a stand-in, posted by DAisym on November 23, 2008, at 18:56:46
Hi Daisy,
Since I agree fully with what you say, it must have been the word "stand-in" that wasn't apt. If anything, they are more like bikes with training wheels - but they are real bikes nonetheless :)
We can never lose sight that a goal in most (but not all, as discussed in seldom's thread) therapies, particularly attachment-based, is to eventually take our new-found interpersonal confidence, skills, and ability to love into RL where we can apply it to *available* people. But I don't see how that is in any way incompatible with a deeply loving and real relationship between client/patient and T. Given that we all have relationships of one sort or another with our T's, there is an inevitable spectrum. Just as there has to be at one end, a dyad that works well enough together but without much emotional contact (and that's fine if it works for the client), at the other end, there must be dyads that are very well matched personally and professionally and, especially in long-term therapy, a very deep and profoundly meaningful bond may develop between the two individuals. There can be responsible, boundaried therapy and still have both parties very deeply attached to one another. The challenge may be, for such a dyad, to be able to "let go" of the relationship if/when it is time to do so, but even so it is just another challenge of the many that face any T-patient/client dyad.
I am not one to equate all feelings in therapy as transference or countertransference. Based on the relationship I have with my T, I know that there is clearly one or more transference relationships that manifest in my therapy but there is also a genuinely deep and caring real relationship. I believe that the two (transference and real) are neither interchangeable nor mutually exclusive, and that usually both are present as we do our therapeutic work together.
The need for patients to love is an interesting point and I read some time ago a book chapter about that which I thought was really good and made a lot of sense to me. The gist was that children whose love is rejected or otherwise not returned, usually by their parents, grow up with significant injuries to their self. In healing this wound, the author said that it is important that Ts not repeat the injury but accept and hold their patient's love, and respect that need to love as much as the need to be loved. I will look up that reference and post the link.
Lucie
> I was struck by what Lucie said about the therapist being a stand in and how eventually one should move to expressing loving feelings to someone IRL. And I thought, "well yes, I guess that is the ultimate goal. But what if the love you feel for your therapist is really for THEM and generated BY them?" So I've been thinking about this.
>
> Of course, transference exists in all relationships. How could it not? But I do think that we can have strong loving feelings for our therapist that they have "earned" if I can say it that way. I think, perhaps, that is why their response is so important and carries so much anxiety for all of us. We want them to accept our love - not necessarily return it. We want them to know it is for them and for them to take it in and hold it. And I think we want them to acknowledge that this capacity we have to love them and to trust them enough to express the love, is a frightening, wonderful thing. I think loving is as powerful as being loved. It is incredible to know you can feel so deeply and it is even more incredible when they accept your love as special and OK - not something to run from or something that will taint them. Because isn't it really a step toward growth - to be able to love someone who has been kind and helpful to you?
>
> Just some rambling musings after a long weekend.
>
> Good luck with this.
> Daisy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on November 24, 2008, at 15:12:46
In reply to The L word with T?, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 12:31:16
My t told me years ago: "Isn't it enough that I love you."
I'm sure if I mentioned that, he would say that he meant he loved me like all of his clients.
Ha (LOL); unless he does and says to others what he does and says to me.....
Sassy
Posted by Annierose on November 24, 2008, at 16:46:13
In reply to The L word with T?, posted by JayMac on November 22, 2008, at 12:31:16
I've been in a psychodynamic based therapy for 5 years (@ 3 times a week) and I have never told my therapist that I love her. I've read this thread and have been thinking why it doesn't feel like it is something I would/could ever do.
And it boils down to this. I love my therapist as my therapist. If we were to meet under different life circumstances, let's say neighbors, I think we would be friendly with one another, but I don't think we would be "friends". I see us as completely different types of people. I'm more of the Bette Midler type (without the talent) louder than most, generally an open book, says what's on my mind and my therapist is more Mary Tyler Moore ... very even keeled temperment, always warm and kind and dare I say "nice". People's first impression of me would be "fun" "loud" ... never "nice" ... even though I am a nice person.
Over my life, I have seen three different therapists. Only my current t for a long term therapy because I do have deep, caring feelings for and I believe she is trustworthy. When I read how you feel and others on this thread, I think what they feel is something different than I feel (although I can't be sure). I'm not sure I would like my t outside the outside ... she's too nice and I have a hard time trusting nice.
Jaymac - I think LOVE is a wonderful feeling to share with your therapist. She will receive it warmly. The gift of the heart is the very best kind to share. Good Luck
Posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 17:18:41
In reply to Re: The L word with T?, posted by Annierose on November 24, 2008, at 16:46:13
I *know* my therapist isn't someone I'd choose to spend my time with outside therapy. We aren't at all alike in any way.
He drive me nuts enough in the constraints of therapy.
And yet I do love him, warts and all.
Do you think it important to have a lot in common with the people we love? I think of it more as a feeling. Well, for example, when he bites off bits of his cuticles, instead of feeling annoyed with him as I might have in the beginning, I feel a surge of affection. Or when he called me to tell me he was leaving for that job, I realized I cared enough for him to want the best for him even if it meant that he would no longer be available to me. At least at that moment.
The fact that I wouldn't feel any desire to spend an evening in his company seems so small beside all that.
Posted by JayMac on November 24, 2008, at 18:42:45
In reply to Re: The L word with T?, posted by Annierose on November 24, 2008, at 16:46:13
Everyone's relationship with their T is so different. As much as I love Babble, sometimes we have to step back and realize that our own relationship with our T is different than other people's relationship with their T. This is neither good nor bad, it is what it is.
For example, if my T and I were neighbors and got to talking, we would come to find we have many different things in common. I don't know if we would call eachother for coffee dates, but I'm sure we would have lovely conversations about our commonalities. We do have different personalities and that is also something I have come to respect, accept, and love.
Regardless of similar interests or not, I love my T for who she is in my life. I think my love for her is similar (but yet completely different) to how a child loves their mom/dad/caregiver. I fondly remember when I used to nanny twins. I was with them for years, I still see them frequently. I remember when one of them first told me that they love me, and I remember being surprised. I was touched, I just about cried. It was so sweet and so rich. Of course I knew that I was significant in her life, of course I knew that she would tell and kick and scream at me the next week, but, nevertheless, I knew that she would come running to me when needed me to help dress her doll, or fix her toy, brush her hair, or when she was hurting. My relationship with them was and is precious. They are dear to my heart. I completely understand that my relationshp with my T is different, nevertheless, I find worth in all it's ups and downs, highs and lows.My relationship with my T is also precious. She tells me over and over that what we have is special. The specialness is what I love, we have created it together. Without her, and without me, we wouldn't have this.
Anyhow, I don't mean to ramble on and on about this topic. I just enjoy the discussion. For what it's worth, each of us has our own special relationship with our T.=)
Posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 19:42:09
In reply to Re: The L word with T?, posted by Annierose on November 24, 2008, at 16:46:13
Annierose, I want to clarify that I was just curious about our different reactions to basically the same thing. (Although our reasons for not being sure we'd like them are certainly different. I never think of my therapist as being too nice.)
I could easily see not loving my therapist at all. And I guess it is always a source of curiosity to me why I do. He laughs and says it must be pheromones.
Posted by onceupon on November 24, 2008, at 20:14:30
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » onceupon, posted by JayMac on November 23, 2008, at 21:34:05
What do you imagine it would be like if she didn't reciprocate? Or maybe, more importantly, how would you like her to reciprocate?
From what you've described about your therapist and you having many common interests, it makes sense that you might feel so connected to her so quickly, even if you've "just begun." Sometimes it's nice to feel like we can take shortcuts in relationships - it seems like she just gets you - and that sounds nice.
Posted by Annierose on November 24, 2008, at 21:11:45
In reply to Re: The L word with T? » Annierose, posted by Dinah on November 24, 2008, at 17:18:41
>>>Do you think it important to have a lot in common with the people we love?
No, of course not. I'm not sure what I was trying to express exactly. When I thought about this subject "do I love my therapist?" I couldn't say "yes" without qualifying my answer ... that I love her as my therapist. I'm not sure I would love her as my friend. I certainly couldn't imagine going out to dinner with her or sharing a bottle of wine talking politics or the meaning of life. Or maybe I don't know much about the person outside of the therapy space to make that sort of leap of faith. Maybe this says more about me and my place in therapy than it does about our commonalities.
It's interesting.
And I'm not saying that I don't understand others love for their therapist. I understand that possibility entirely. The other two therapists I saw (in the course of my long life! ... one for 2 or 3 months, and the other for under a year) I could imagine hanging out with them at a restaurant, sharing a laugh.
Hmmmm.
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