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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
I had an intense, productful session with my pdoc last night. (See, I can say something nice about him!).
Anyway, we were talking about my 5-yr-old girl and how she is actually sitting outside of me right now, rigid as a box, and I can't reach her. She is pure fear and terror, the root of my feelings, but I can't access her. I have no connection to her emotionally, and I feel like I need to in order to make progress.
My pdoc said "You have three choices." Here are the choices. When he refers to "walking," he means moving forward and making progress. Obviously, when he refers to "talking" he means addressing the little girl.
Here are the choices:
1. We can sit down with the little girl and discuss her emotions.
2. We can walk while we talk to her.
3. You can take my hand and we can talk to her as we walk.Now, if this were your therapy (not mine, I'll discuss that later), which would you choose and why?
I'm just interested in what people would choose.
antigua
Posted by raisinb on October 22, 2008, at 14:12:09
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
What a great thread. I have my own little girl, and this made me think about how progress happened for me, with her.
I would pick #2. For me, #1 implied that once I "deal with" the little girl, then I'd be "done" with her, and I could move forward. I guess I've learned that progress isn't real progress unless she's a part of it, that I learn how to walk with her. And not only take her along--value her and walk at her speed, so to speak. Because leaving her out of it would be cutting off a part of me that is fearful and blocks progress, yeah, but also a part of me that contains something beautiful--all the love and emotion I locked up because of things that happened to her.
As for #3, I didn't like the image of holding my therapist's hand while walking and talking to the little girl. Because that would imply that I was focusing on the therapeutic relationship, rather than my relationship with myself, and I guess the latter feels like a better focus for me right now.
But that's me of course :)
I think it's a great, very vivid way of illustrating a complex dilemma. Maybe there's hope for your pdoc after all!
Posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 15:12:20
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
"productful"? That's not even a word! I meant "productive". My fingers don't type as fast as I think...
antigua
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 22, 2008, at 15:36:14
In reply to Re: Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 15:12:20
I would pick #3.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by stellabystarlight on October 22, 2008, at 16:03:34
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
Oh, you didn't literally mean walk and hold hands. That image was heavenly. My little girl hates boundaries - she wishes they could go for a walk and have fun, and enjoy an ice cream cone together. lol.
I'm feeling very needy in therapy right now, so I would choose #1. I want him to let my little girl talk without having any expectations of moving forward or making a progress. A month ago, he tried to "walk" with my little girl, and she ended up getting upset with him and left. She felt pressured and didn't feel safe, but, he did bring her back. I have difficult time sharing special moments between us, but I'll say he brought my little girl back by tenderly putting a blanket on her, and holding her with his knowing eyes. I'll always treasure that moment. The sweet caring he showed meant more to my little girl than any words he could have said. I'm discovering that my little girl makes the most progress when she feels cared about and cared for.
Thanks for the great post, Antigua. I'm quite upset with him right now, so it was good to think about the positive aspects of our relationship.
Stellabystarlight
Posted by rskontos on October 22, 2008, at 17:11:16
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
If I were at such a point, I would do #2. Number 1 for me is more of the same talk talk talk. Nope that seems like more of the same.
Holding his hand for me would scare the wits out of me, so I like 2. Progress is good. Walking forward is good. It means he will be there to help move it along, involved in the process. #1 for me is the patient, you, doing the work, getting her involved, while #2 just seems like he is making an effort to reach out to her and bring her over as well as you involved because after all, she is you, just a part of you that is holding the pain.
I just like 2. I maybe can't explain it well enough. That is part of how I am progressing these days.
Let us know if you don't mind what you choose.
rsk
Posted by JouezMoi on October 22, 2008, at 17:56:49
In reply to Re: Make a Choice » antigua3, posted by stellabystarlight on October 22, 2008, at 16:03:34
I like option 3. I see holding the hand as support through the process.
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 18:35:29
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
Well, it's just me, but I'd say "What's with this talk *to* her business? How about a communicate *with*?" I don't think there's a part in me that wants to be talked *to*.
Posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 18:39:56
In reply to Re: Make a Choice, posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 18:35:29
To clarify, I'd say he meant talk to her in the way you meant. Not "talked at."
antigua
Posted by Dinah on October 22, 2008, at 19:07:17
In reply to Re: Make a Choice » Dinah, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 18:39:56
Well, admittedly I'm a bit stubborn and obdurate.
But it wouldn't make all that big a difference. I'd answer just as sharply however he worded it. For the same reason, more or less, as the "talked to".
My objection would be that we just couldn't sit and make that decision without input. That that would be insulting and demeaning and any five year old worth their salt would hurl themselves on the floor, drum their heels, and refuse to take a bloody step. Or actually, since I'm sure my inner child is somewhat more polite than that, would simply sit down and refuse to move until her input was requested. Well no, my inner child isn't that polite and would raise a howl of protest and likely bite my therapist's ankle.
Fortunately he's been bitten enough to know not to consult over my head, so to speak.
Posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2008, at 7:08:13
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
I'm so glad I posted this because I love the answers. You all made me really think about this in a different way.
My first inclination was to pick No. 1 because that's what I have been taught in psychodynamic therapy--that I need to open up, talk and feel my feelings, and express them--anger in particular--if I was to get through w/them. As a mother, I've always used this approach when one of my kids had a problem--let's talk through this so you can master it and move on.
I liked raisinb's assessment that doing that implies I can get "rid" of the little girl. I guess I've been thinking that way, but honestly, I was thinking that resolving them by talking would integrate her, instead of her sitting like an unexploded landmine right next to me all the time. Also, it does feel like that w/o resolving my issues w/her, I'm leaving her behind, and as I make progress, I feel like I'm getting further and further away from her, and building my life on stilts w/o the strong foundation of her underneath me.
My second reaction was, "Whoa, did he really suggest No. 3?" Doesn't that imply a relationship between the two of us that he says doesn't exist? That it's all about my relationship with my therapy and he is just driving the bus? It sounded heavenly that he would allow me to lean on him. (When I questioned him about this, he kind of stepped back from the offer, as he must have realized (or at least in my mind) that he had offered his hand! That's too personal for him. He must have thought, "What have I done?")
But I knew his suggestion was No. 2, and I was right. (Remember, he's CBT all the way.)
He says option No. 1 would lead to "paralysis by analysis" for me, which could be right, or wrong. My T thinks No. 1 is the right option for me, but that's the way we've approached my therapy all along. To express, absorb and master the emotion, and then move on.
So we talked about No. 2 and I understand his point of view and he's probably right. Not that I like it mind you, but I understand the value of it and how it has helped me to move on. W/option 2, my emotions (in his mind at least) erupt when progress is made, when I'm moving forward, and we deal w/the feelings then.
No. 3 was never really an option for him. He just doesn't do that, and I wonder why he really suggested it when he didn't mean it.
I guess my problem with No. 2 is how I already described it; that moving forwad implies leaving the girl behind. She's a ton of baggage to carry around--heavy, bulky and always in the way as I'm moving. Plus, who knows when she's going to explode? That's my interpretation, of course, my pdoc thinks she can be defused so there isn't an outpouring of emotion at one time, which is what I think he is avoiding w/option 1.
The funny thing is that after we discussed this, we went on to talk about how I hadn't been able to write since he had criticized my writing ever so long ago (except here on Babble, of course; this is my only outlet). We discussed why I had given him that power--and it is totally ridiculous--and I acknowledged that I was only punishing myself.
But then we got to some very powerful stuff about what it meant to the little girl to give her treasured writing to the adult male and for him to reject it. As if I had let the secret out (my writing has always been a very private thing to me; it's very hard, if not impossible, to show it to anyone) and I felt like he had punished me, like being the bad girl w/my father.
The discussion wasn't enough to make me return to writing, as much as I ache to, but it was progress.
It was incredible, and for the first time in ages I didn't stomp out in anger.
But think about it. He proposed No. 2, but when we discussed something so important to me, we moved to No. 1. Interesting for me to consider.
I can see the value in No. 2, but as a thorougly psychodynamic patient I can't reject No. 1. As a mother, I can't reject it either.
Thank you so much everyone. You have really helped me a lot.
antigua
Posted by raisinb on October 23, 2008, at 8:49:42
In reply to Great Answers, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2008, at 7:08:13
Jeez, why would a he include #3 without meaning it? Sometimes in order to have the strength to walk, you need the therapist's hand. That's what they are there for.
I love how this thread made me think about my own progress. For me, once I stopped trying to master and move on from my little girl, the magic happened. And I leapt forward instead of stumbling painfully. But I needed a long period of clinging to my therapist's hand first. And probably still will in the months (years, probably) to come.
It's kind of like in any relationship--once you stop trying to control the other person and give what you can, you usually get a lot more of what you want yourself. (Excuse me while I gag for sounding like the self-help books I hate :))
Now, I think I might be able to apply this metaphor to my own therapy later...and perhaps not walk out this time. Thanks!
Posted by onceupon on October 23, 2008, at 10:39:48
In reply to Make a Choice, posted by antigua3 on October 22, 2008, at 13:49:43
Maybe I'm just being dense about this, but couldn't #1 represent "walking" or progress in and of itself? Or couldn't it lead to progress?
Saying "we need to walk and talk" at the same time seems kind of artificial to me. Almost like being pulled along. But that's just my perspective.
Posted by lucie lu on October 23, 2008, at 19:42:06
In reply to Great Answers, posted by antigua3 on October 23, 2008, at 7:08:13
OK I feel very dense here. You are psychodynamic and he is CBT. And why did he offer #3 if it wasn't really a choice - what would he have done if that was what you chose? Maybe I'm just being dim (like my kids think I am)...Lucie
Posted by antigua3 on October 24, 2008, at 8:43:14
In reply to Re: Great Answers » antigua3, posted by raisinb on October 23, 2008, at 8:49:42
Well, he did offer No. 3 and would have had to abide by it if I had chosen that. I was interpreting that it was "too" much for him to offer. I really think he would have abided by it. It was my interpretation, really.
Hmm, maybe when I go back, I should say No. 3. We barely discussed it because it made me so uncomfortable, to associate that kind of support w/him. We skipped over it because I said, "Well, I know which one you would pick!" (No. 2 of course), and then the discussion ensued about the options between No. 1 & 2.
I think what I was trying to say is that I caught him at something that showed he just might care. In fact, I know he cares, and while that makes me feel good, it also scares the devil out of me.
Still confusing, right? Sorry.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on October 24, 2008, at 8:47:52
In reply to Re: Make a Choice, posted by onceupon on October 23, 2008, at 10:39:48
I think walking while we talk does signify to a certain extent being pulled along. But I'm doing the leading, or at least that's how I interpret it.
No. 1 could represent "walking" in and of itself, but it assumes that I wouldn't be moving forward in the rest of my life, but concentrating so much on this little girl. The problem, as he sees it, is that it would slow any progress I'm making in my life because I would spend my time ruminating instead of moving. I don't necessarily agree. Ruminating and then resolving would help me move forward in a huge way, but if I can't seem to resolve it (which I can't; I've tried forever), then it's best to keep moving forward in other directions and deal with the emotions when they come up in the here and now.
Like I said, I'm more used to No.1 w/my T, but I can see the value of what he is suggesting.
antigua
Posted by antigua3 on October 24, 2008, at 9:02:31
In reply to Re: Great Answers » antigua3, posted by lucie lu on October 23, 2008, at 19:42:06
You are anything but dim lucie lu. You are one of the smartest, most insightful people here on Babble...
As I mentioned above, I think he would have abided by No. 3 if I had chosen it. While I think he backed off from it because he thought No. 2 was the best option, I think he was offering two ends of the spectrum with No. 1 and 3. I think I push his buttons and he got caught. It's kind of fun sometimes to do this to him intentionally, to show him that his strict CBT approach needs more sometimes, even though he openly admits that he mixes therapy types where appropriate.
I'm a challenging patient for him, whether he'll admit it or not, but he respects the challenge. I believe we are at the point in our relationship that if I really needed him, he would be there for me. That certainly hasn't always been the case, but I think my trust has grown.
No, he's not perfect. My T isn't either. Neither am I! But he has helped me to move forward in life and to deal with the anxiety and fear that has kept me from having the courage to accomplish some of the goals in my life. It's just that sometimes I need to stop and deal w/something NOW, and not wait. He respects that now in a way that I didn't think was possible.
Remind me of this when I rant and rave about him next time. I do re-evaluate, often, whether he is still helping me, and my T agrees that he is still useful!
There is strong transference going on, I am aware of that, and to be able to bring it into the room w/him has helped me. Negative transference has its benefits, although it can be very difficult.
antigua
Posted by lucie lu on October 24, 2008, at 14:53:15
In reply to Re: Great Answers » lucie lu, posted by antigua3 on October 24, 2008, at 9:02:31
> You are anything but dim lucie lu. You are one of the smartest, most insightful people here on Babble...
Oh gosh... you can't see me but I'm turning pink! This a very fast, very sharp crowd we travel with on babble, so that was a nice thing for you to say, antigua. I enjoy reading your posts too :-)
Anyway, my kids keep me humble.
> As I mentioned above, I think he would have abided by No. 3 if I had chosen it. While I think he backed off from it because he thought No. 2 was the best option, I think he was offering two ends of the spectrum with No. 1 and 3. I think I push his buttons and he got caught. It's kind of fun sometimes to do this to him intentionally, to show him that his strict CBT approach needs more sometimes, even though he openly admits that he mixes therapy types where appropriate.I have to say, Antigua, that I have thought from your other posts that your pdoc sounds rather intriguing. It reminded me of how the genders are supposed to have different sorts of relationships with babies - men stimulating and bouncy, women soothing and calming. You seem to have the best of both worlds.
> I'm a challenging patient for him, whether he'll admit it or not, but he respects the challenge. I believe we are at the point in our relationship that if I really needed him, he would be there for me. That certainly hasn't always been the case, but I think my trust has grown.
Many feel that the difficult relationships are the most interesting. At least that's what I keep telling myself.
> No, he's not perfect. My T isn't either. Neither am I! But he has helped me to move forward in life and to deal with the anxiety and fear that has kept me from having the courage to accomplish some of the goals in my life. It's just that sometimes I need to stop and deal w/something NOW, and not wait. He respects that now in a way that I didn't think was possible.
>
> Remind me of this when I rant and rave about him next time. I do re-evaluate, often, whether he is still helping me, and my T agrees that he is still useful!I'm glad you didn't drop out of therapy :)
> There is strong transference going on, I am aware of that, and to be able to bring it into the room w/him has helped me. Negative transference has its benefits, although it can be very difficult.
Look forward to hearing about it.
> antigua
>
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