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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
Hi, I wanted to ask if people here have experienced intense negative transference towards their therapist. Or intense anger. I am feeling SOOOOOOOOO angry at my therapist, I feel in a way that I hate her and I can never trust her again and on and on. Part of it is that she disappointed me, I feel that she wasn't sensitive about something that was very important to me and, in my opinion, to our relationship. And I am so angry about it ( and a few other things she has said in the past month that bothered me ) that i feel sick to my stomach all the time.
We started to talk about it last session but I was so angry I could hardly speak. And also I am afraid of being so angry at her, that I will hurt her feelings or she will get defensive or get mad at me, etc. Which she said puts her in a corner because when I say I am afraid of that, then she really "can't" be any of those things (mad at me or hurt or whatever). Which also made me mad that she said that, I just wanted her to say, "i promise i won't be mad or hurt or defensive, just tell me what you are angry about." instead of saying that we can handle however she reacts.
i feel like i want to be able to tell her ANYTHING, even if i am enraged at her, and that she will be unflappable and won't have an emotional reaction towards me. but she says that then she isn't in a real relationship with me, that people react when someone says they are very angry at them for something they did or didn't do, and if she doesn't have an emotional reaction, then we aren't really in an intimate relationship. and that what's more important is that she can get frustrated or mad at me and i can get frustrated or mad at her and we can talk about it and work thru it and that our relationship can withstand it and i can know that she will not leave or abandon me or hold anything against me and she will still love me, which is not something i was able to experience with either of my parents growing up. and that THAT'S true intimacy. she also said that people who love each other sometimes get angry at each other. it's part of loving someone. I told her i just want the good stuff, the loving feelings, and not the other stuff.
what do you all think of those things?
anyway i was reading on the internet last night about negative transference and i did realize that some anger is from that, is from a deep pit of anger towards my parents. and also, as some of you might remember, i am STILL waiting to find out if i am going to be staying here in israel or leaving for america for good, but either way i am going to america for the summer and so i also know i am having intense separation anxiety and that always creates tremendous anger in me. (like when she goes on vacation. it's the same even if i am the one leaving for vacation).
yet some of it is also real. i am seeing her again tomorrow and am so angry that i sort of want to cancel. i want to say "f*** it" about this whole relationship. i can't handle the disappointments or mistakes she makes sometimes. (what i see as mistakes). i want to just tell her everything that makes me angry and has made me angry at her even though i know it will hurt her feelings. i sort of want to push her away. i want to tell her that i hate her and that i don't trust her not to hurt me. (i know what she'll say...that she would never intentionally hurt me, but that in intimate relationships we do UNintentionally hurt each other sometimes). Again, it's part of being in an intimate relationship.
at the same time i don't want to tell her anything b/c i don't want her to have the satisfaction that i even care that much. even i am infuriated that i am so infuriated, that i care this much.
i am overwhelmed by the intensity of my anger towards her.
anyone experience this with someone whom they otherwise feel is a good therapist and towards whom you normally have a good relationship with? what happened? were you able to work thru it? what do you make of this? it's so upsetting for me. i haven't called her in 5 days which is the longest i've ever gone without calling her between sessions.
LG
p.s. sorry so long and rambling.
Posted by antigua on June 6, 2004, at 12:38:00
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
Yes, I've definitely been in your situation before. IMO, it's all part of the process and I think it will help if you share every bit of it w/her. Does any of this have to do with your leaving? As in pushing her away because you are leaving? You do want to be able to trust her absolutely, but given what you may have grown up with you may not be able to do that, and that may be making you angry.
I got into a situation w/my T where I thought she had betrayed me last summer and spoken behind my back to another T. I was really angry and I almost lost my cool when I told her. She was surprised at the depth of my anger, but we worked through it. It was definitely a trigger from my past more than it was being angry at her. I loaded my anger toward her w/every bit of anger I had as a child that I never expressed.
And, yes, my T is absolutely great, I now trust her absoutely, but it doesn't mean that she doesn't annoy me sometimes.
best,
antigua
Posted by lucy stone on June 6, 2004, at 12:43:53
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
Yes, I have experienced the intense anger you talk about and I have also want what you say you want, I that I could be intensely angry at him without him getting defensive or angry in return. He has never been angry, but he has been defensive on occaision. He has not approached in the same way as your T (he would never says he loves me, for example), but he does think his reaction is important. He says that I need to understand the affect of my anger on people and that even if they love me they do react. Unlike your T, he says that my anger can eventually drive a wedge between me and the people I love. He says that people are not perfect, and that even in loving relationships people sometimes do things that make us angry. We are working seeing the things that trigger my rage in a new way, not has hurts or slights but as mistakes that humans sometimes make (him included). I think this is a bit like what your T is telling you. Yes, we work through it, and it is getting better.
Posted by shadows721 on June 6, 2004, at 15:09:15
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
Lg,
I defiantely think something deeper is going on than you realize. This is the same person that you couldn't do without about a month ago and now you can not trust? I feel this about you changing your views about the t. I didn't see in your post what did the t really do to loose your faith. Maybe, this is a self protection thing to help the transition for the possible move??
Posted by Pfinstegg on June 6, 2004, at 15:23:48
Oh, gosh, it sounds like almost all of the rage and negativity you are feeling and expressing is because of your impending separation. I almost always have some of those feelings before (and after) a vacation- mine or his- but you are having a months-long interruption! In therapy, I think we all become intensely sensitive to separations- in a way that we are not in our daily lives with our friends and important others. I guess it's the baby in us all!
Posted by pegasus on June 6, 2004, at 16:22:32
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
Yes, I've been there too. And my T said a similar thing. He said that part of what we learn in therapy is that there can be a relationship where anger happens, and the relationship can be large enough to contain it. So, although sometimes he would become irritated or frustrated with me, he still liked me overall. That's a lesson that was *hard* to learn, but very valuable. And if he had hidden all of his frustration, I wouldn't have learned it.
Which is not to say that a therapist should always show exactly what they're feeling. I think they do have to be very careful to match what we're able to handle. But it sounds like you've been very close to your T in the past. So maybe she thinks you are at a point where you are able to not only express your anger at her, but maybe also to witness her defensiveness, or irritation at you. And how that doesn't destroy your relationship.
pegasus
Posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 16:24:46
In reply to Re: Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by shadows721 on June 6, 2004, at 15:09:15
Thanks everyone. Your insights are very helpful.
I have been thinking about this and reading a lot on the internet tonight and I do think that the depth of the anger has very much to do with the upcoming separation. I do think I have a few good reasons though to be angry/disappointed. But probably they wouldn't be as big of a deal if I wasn't separating and therefore looking for an excuse to back away. I WANT to be mad at her so now I am feeling unforgiving and furious.
I do have to be careful I think to not go off the deep end with my anger towards her when I see her tomorrow because she is only human and words do sting. And I agree that anger can drive a wedge between people in relationships, probably even with one's therapist. I can feel that I want to test her but I don't want to push it too far.
Anyway I hope to be able to discuss this with her tomorrow and not be silent most of the time. I HATE when I'm silent for a long time. I told her I need her to ask me questions to get me to talk, because I hate sitting there in silence, what a waste of time. I understand that silence for a minute or two can help me to process what she has just said or something I am feeling. But to sit there in silence for a long time...I just hate it.
BTW, there is a very good paper I read parts of tonight, for anyone who is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and in therapy...
http://www2.auckland.ac.nz/ipc/pdf/cr51.pdf
Check out the table of contents on page 6...this paper is chock full of good stuff.
I am very nervous about my session with her tomorrow. I hope it will be a good one and she will see thru me and not take too personally the things I am upset about. I hope I can talk and that I express myself without being intentionally hurtful. I have to remember that she is not my mom or my dad or anyone else that has terribly hurt/abandoned/abused me in the past. She is my therapist who loves me and has made some careless mistakes IMO but I can talk to her about them and we can work it thru. I have to allow this relationship to be different than the others were. That's how the healing happens.
LG
Posted by vwoolf on June 7, 2004, at 5:15:19
In reply to Re: Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 16:24:46
What a great link! That'll keep me going for a while. Thanks.
Posted by LG04 on June 7, 2004, at 9:32:49
In reply to Re: Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by vwoolf on June 7, 2004, at 5:15:19
To follow-up...i had a very good session with my therapist today though I went with tremendous anxiety. i am proud of myself that i finally allowed myself to open up (after we talked about why i didn't want to, what i was afraid of, etc) and told her the things that had been bothering me. I also didn't go crazy with anger, i felt very much like i didn't want to hurt her rather i wanted to have a mature discussion about the things that upset me. she said i don't have to protect her and i could tell her how i feel in any manner i want (i.e. i don't have to be nice about it) but i think she appreciated that i do care about her feelings and wasn't going to use her as a punching bag without any consideration of how it might feel to her.
She heard what i said and said she could have responded in a better way (to this particular incident). one of the things she apologized for and said it was a stupid comment. she said overall i really made her think. she also said that my needs are very important to her and she will always try to meet them as best as she can, but that she's not perfect and she can't promise that she will never again hurt me (though she said again that she will never INTENTIONALLY hurt me).
i told her that if she can't promise she'll never hurt me, that i don't want to be in the relationship with her. that's a huge issue for me (and i know unrealistic)...i want the people i am intimate with to be perfect so i can protect myself from getting hurt. we talked mostly about my feelings in the present (towards her), and not connected to my childhood, which i am glad about because i didn't want her to deflect my anger and hurt at her by telling me it's from the past.
we talked a little about the separation issue but not too much...she really took seriously the things that i am angry/hurt about without pinning the feelings onto something else.
i left feeling very proud of myself that i could go in there with so much anger and start talking about it. it gives me confidence that maybe i am capable of being in an intimate relationship (i.e. marriage) after all. and that i handled it well, that i was considerate of her while also speaking my mind. it also gives me confidence that i didn't run, which i wanted to do and which i told her that i wanted to do and was an option that i considered.
i am glad that i am going down the other side of this...another session or two and hopefully i will have worked it thru with her. she's never as apologetic as i want her to be...i want her to feel really guilty and to say "i'm so sorry i hurt you, i won't ever do that again" but i suppose that's also what i want my mom and dad to say and feel. she has a good self-esteem as far as not expecting herself to be perfect...that's hard for me since i want her to be!
Thanks for listening,
LG
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2004, at 10:36:01
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
I've worked through it, though I still have trouble feeling anger toward him. But we've gone through some really rocky patches and emerged at the other end. It's still hard for me to express anger toward him though. I need him too much.
I do it anyway, though.
Posted by Dinah on June 7, 2004, at 10:37:14
In reply to Re: Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 7, 2004, at 9:32:49
Posted by pegasus on June 7, 2004, at 11:13:27
In reply to Re: Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 7, 2004, at 9:32:49
LG, that session sounds so helpful. You should both be proud of yourselves for being able to talk about it in a full and productive way. It's so easy for anger to become an obstacle to communication.
pegasus
Posted by kellyr. on June 7, 2004, at 19:51:31
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
you made a big step with your T i wish i could do what you did, but i too have the same problems as you w/ my T, and i also have been abuse in many ways as a child. so i know where your coming from. how did you do it, start telling your T about how you feel about her? because i can't get a word in w/ my T and it realy bothers me that i'm there to talk about whats going on w/ me and not him.
Posted by Cal on August 19, 2008, at 12:00:24
In reply to Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by LG04 on June 6, 2004, at 11:53:38
> Hi, I wanted to ask if people here have experienced intense negative transference towards their therapist. Or intense anger. I am feeling SOOOOOOOOO angry at my therapist, I feel in a way that I hate her and I can never trust her again and on and on. Part of it is that she disappointed me, I feel that she wasn't sensitive about something that was very important to me and, in my opinion, to our relationship. And I am so angry about it ( and a few other things she has said in the past month that bothered me ) that i feel sick to my stomach all the time.
>
> We started to talk about it last session but I was so angry I could hardly speak. And also I am afraid of being so angry at her, that I will hurt her feelings or she will get defensive or get mad at me, etc. Which she said puts her in a corner because when I say I am afraid of that, then she really "can't" be any of those things (mad at me or hurt or whatever). Which also made me mad that she said that, I just wanted her to say, "i promise i won't be mad or hurt or defensive, just tell me what you are angry about." instead of saying that we can handle however she reacts.
>
> i feel like i want to be able to tell her ANYTHING, even if i am enraged at her, and that she will be unflappable and won't have an emotional reaction towards me. but she says that then she isn't in a real relationship with me, that people react when someone says they are very angry at them for something they did or didn't do, and if she doesn't have an emotional reaction, then we aren't really in an intimate relationship. and that what's more important is that she can get frustrated or mad at me and i can get frustrated or mad at her and we can talk about it and work thru it and that our relationship can withstand it and i can know that she will not leave or abandon me or hold anything against me and she will still love me, which is not something i was able to experience with either of my parents growing up. and that THAT'S true intimacy. she also said that people who love each other sometimes get angry at each other. it's part of loving someone. I told her i just want the good stuff, the loving feelings, and not the other stuff.
>
> what do you all think of those things?
>
> anyway i was reading on the internet last night about negative transference and i did realize that some anger is from that, is from a deep pit of anger towards my parents. and also, as some of you might remember, i am STILL waiting to find out if i am going to be staying here in israel or leaving for america for good, but either way i am going to america for the summer and so i also know i am having intense separation anxiety and that always creates tremendous anger in me. (like when she goes on vacation. it's the same even if i am the one leaving for vacation).
>
> yet some of it is also real. i am seeing her again tomorrow and am so angry that i sort of want to cancel. i want to say "f*** it" about this whole relationship. i can't handle the disappointments or mistakes she makes sometimes. (what i see as mistakes). i want to just tell her everything that makes me angry and has made me angry at her even though i know it will hurt her feelings. i sort of want to push her away. i want to tell her that i hate her and that i don't trust her not to hurt me. (i know what she'll say...that she would never intentionally hurt me, but that in intimate relationships we do UNintentionally hurt each other sometimes). Again, it's part of being in an intimate relationship.
>
> at the same time i don't want to tell her anything b/c i don't want her to have the satisfaction that i even care that much. even i am infuriated that i am so infuriated, that i care this much.
>
> i am overwhelmed by the intensity of my anger towards her.
>
> anyone experience this with someone whom they otherwise feel is a good therapist and towards whom you normally have a good relationship with? what happened? were you able to work thru it? what do you make of this? it's so upsetting for me. i haven't called her in 5 days which is the longest i've ever gone without calling her between sessions.
>
> LG
>
> p.s. sorry so long and rambling.-----------------------------------------------
Yes this relates to my other post entitled "why"! where is this person? Are you still around?
Posted by susan47 on August 30, 2008, at 12:08:48
In reply to Re: Negative transference/anger at therapist, posted by Cal on August 19, 2008, at 12:00:24
I don't know if you've posted more about this below but my feeling Cal, is you're still around and reading, my feeling is that you should stay through your feelings DON'T GIVE UP because you feel negative feelings. Negative emotions are part of every relationship including a loving one and your therapist sounds very good; you have to learn that her disappointing you isn't a threat. Ride out your feelings. Are you getting any DBT?
> > Hi, I wanted to ask if people here have experienced intense negative transference towards their therapist. Or intense anger. I am feeling SOOOOOOOOO angry at my therapist, I feel in a way that I hate her and I can never trust her again and on and on. Part of it is that she disappointed me, I feel that she wasn't sensitive about something that was very important to me and, in my opinion, to our relationship. And I am so angry about it ( and a few other things she has said in the past month that bothered me ) that i feel sick to my stomach all the time.
> >
> > We started to talk about it last session but I was so angry I could hardly speak. And also I am afraid of being so angry at her, that I will hurt her feelings or she will get defensive or get mad at me, etc. Which she said puts her in a corner because when I say I am afraid of that, then she really "can't" be any of those things (mad at me or hurt or whatever). Which also made me mad that she said that, I just wanted her to say, "i promise i won't be mad or hurt or defensive, just tell me what you are angry about." instead of saying that we can handle however she reacts.
> >
> > i feel like i want to be able to tell her ANYTHING, even if i am enraged at her, and that she will be unflappable and won't have an emotional reaction towards me. but she says that then she isn't in a real relationship with me, that people react when someone says they are very angry at them for something they did or didn't do, and if she doesn't have an emotional reaction, then we aren't really in an intimate relationship. and that what's more important is that she can get frustrated or mad at me and i can get frustrated or mad at her and we can talk about it and work thru it and that our relationship can withstand it and i can know that she will not leave or abandon me or hold anything against me and she will still love me, which is not something i was able to experience with either of my parents growing up. and that THAT'S true intimacy. she also said that people who love each other sometimes get angry at each other. it's part of loving someone. I told her i just want the good stuff, the loving feelings, and not the other stuff.
> >
> > what do you all think of those things?
> >
> > anyway i was reading on the internet last night about negative transference and i did realize that some anger is from that, is from a deep pit of anger towards my parents. and also, as some of you might remember, i am STILL waiting to find out if i am going to be staying here in israel or leaving for america for good, but either way i am going to america for the summer and so i also know i am having intense separation anxiety and that always creates tremendous anger in me. (like when she goes on vacation. it's the same even if i am the one leaving for vacation).
> >
> > yet some of it is also real. i am seeing her again tomorrow and am so angry that i sort of want to cancel. i want to say "f*** it" about this whole relationship. i can't handle the disappointments or mistakes she makes sometimes. (what i see as mistakes). i want to just tell her everything that makes me angry and has made me angry at her even though i know it will hurt her feelings. i sort of want to push her away. i want to tell her that i hate her and that i don't trust her not to hurt me. (i know what she'll say...that she would never intentionally hurt me, but that in intimate relationships we do UNintentionally hurt each other sometimes). Again, it's part of being in an intimate relationship.
> >
> > at the same time i don't want to tell her anything b/c i don't want her to have the satisfaction that i even care that much. even i am infuriated that i am so infuriated, that i care this much.
> >
> > i am overwhelmed by the intensity of my anger towards her.
> >
> > anyone experience this with someone whom they otherwise feel is a good therapist and towards whom you normally have a good relationship with? what happened? were you able to work thru it? what do you make of this? it's so upsetting for me. i haven't called her in 5 days which is the longest i've ever gone without calling her between sessions.
> >
> > LG
> >
> > p.s. sorry so long and rambling.
>
> -----------------------------------------------
>
> Yes this relates to my other post entitled "why"! where is this person? Are you still around?
>
>
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