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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
I'm in an interesting situation and I'd like your alls advice or thoughts.
I posted an update about the girl client of mine (who I had to call CPS on recently) a few threads up. I wrote some about this issue in that post, but I'm struggling a lot with the idea that guides therapy and being a therapist.... the idea that I have all this power to hurt someone, and then if I do, can (and am expected) to be removed from it emotionally and say "it's just my job" and move on to the next client. Not let it effect me. Not get emotionally involved in it. Not feel bad. Hide behind the professionalism. People I know who have been therapists for longer say it gets easier, but I wonder.. does it get easier, or do you get better at hiding behind the professionalism? Because if it's just that I get better at hiding from it and pretending it doesnt matter, I dont want that ability or that kind of power over people. I know hurt is a part of therapy and unavoidable sometimes. It just feels wrong for my client to be hurting so badly, feeling so betrayed and hurt, and for me to just go home ans pretend it doesnt matter.
Anyway, I emailed my old T Laurie about this. I've seen Laurie on and off for almost eight years. She's smart, a wonderful therapist, and I really respect her judgment. She emailed me back and said this:
"I would like some time to think about your proposal. What it sounds like you are looking for, and rightfully so as a beginning therapist, is good peer supervision or a mentor. I went through this as well when I was starting out and my therapist made it clear to me that she cannot be my mentor, I should find someone different for that, and that she is my therapist. Two different things. If we decide to discontinue my role as a therapist with you, and become your mentor, the relationship boundaries will be clearer. In any event, I will let you know what I think our best approach will be after I consult with some colleagues on this. Ask yourself what you are needing most now—a supervisor/mentor relationship or a therapy relationship. The difference between the two is the therapy relationship is working out issues about yourself and your own history as they effect who you are today in an attempt to be as authentic with your self and others as possible. The sup/men. rel. is about how you as a person effect the therapy with your clients, and how they effect you, and gaining insight into the process of therapy with clients. Think on this and we’ll talk about this again soon, perhaps in our next scheduled session when you come in. Laurie "
I'm going in to see her probably this Tuesday. I dont know what to do. I feel like I could learn SO much from Laurie... it seems like it could really be one of those career-shaping experiences for me. As corny as it sounds, I want to be just like her as a therapist. BUT.... having Laurie as a therapist, a fall back when things go wrong, etc is so important to me too. I hold on to the idea that she's always there and I can go back, if I need to, when things get hard. It'd be hard to give that up. Of course the mentor relationship would include some talking about my own issues anyway, but I'd lose the ability to talk to her about many things I can now.
What do you all think? I know this got awfully long.. sorry. I'm just really torn. I'd appreciate thoughts/ideas/etc on both sides.. anything that will give me more to think about. Thanks you all....
Posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:53:22
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
One more thought.
Does it many anyone umcomfortable that I talk sometimes here about my experiences/feelings about DOING therapy professionally, aside from my own therapy? I want you to be honest... if it makes anyone uncomfortable in any way, I'll stop or be more vague as not to trigger anything. It really wouldnt bother me to do that. I have so many insecurities about my job and I dont want to make people feel like most counselors think this way, or that I have any kind of insight into how most of them think, because I dont think either are true. If it makes you uncomfortable, please say so (or babblemail me).. you dont have to say why. I really do want to know.
Thanks everyone.
Posted by Poet on June 10, 2007, at 11:21:43
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
Hi Wishingstar,
I'm comfortable with you talking about being a therapist and about being in therapy. I think it's interesting to see both sides so to speak.
I don't think I could have my T become my mentor/supervisor. I would need her to be there for me beyond that kind of relationship. I can see why you're torn between Laurie my mentor and Laurie my therapist. Hopefully on Tuesday she'll share her thoughts/questions about it.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on June 10, 2007, at 11:23:51
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
Just my guess, but I think that as a mentor, Laurie might say things to you that she wouldn't say as a therapist and in a way that she wouldn't say it as a therapist, because her priorities would shift to the interests of your clients.
I would not like this from someone I considered a "safe" person, but that's me. I guard my safe places very carefully.
Posted by peddidle on June 10, 2007, at 11:41:45
In reply to does this many anyone uncomfortable?, posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:53:22
I can't speak for anyone else, but it definitely does NOT make me uncomfortable. I get the sense that most of us have probably never had experience with a therapist in your particular capacity, but I still like seeing a little of the therapy experience from the other side. Plus, it shows you really care about what you are doing, and that you want to do the best you possibly can. Sometimes, after reading about your situation, I even realize things about my own therapy relationship that I might not have otherwise. So, please feel free to keep posting about it.
I have a question for you, though. I don't mean this to imply that you are not qualified to do your job or anything like that, so please don't be offended. How does being in therapy yourself affect you when you are working? Are you able to completely block out your own issues and focus entirely on the client?
I'm sorry if that came out wrong. You don't have to answer any of it. Again, please don't be offended, I'm just curious about that aspect of therapy.
Posted by sunnydays on June 10, 2007, at 11:42:48
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
Doesn't make me uncomfortable. I think it's interesting to see a different side of things.
I personally would keep her as your therapist. There are plenty of other T's that could mentor you, but you have such a long history and a good working relationship with her, that I would hate to see you lose that good therapy relationship.
sunnydays
Posted by gardenergirl on June 10, 2007, at 14:39:43
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
I had similar wishes about my T awhile back. At one point I realized that it was possible that there could be an opening at the health center where he works, and I would love to apply for that. But I could never work for him, it just wouldn't be right for either of us. That was a grieving process for me, because like you, I respect my T and want to be like him in many ways. And it's also exactly the kind of place I'd like to work. When we talked about it, he said something I'll always treasure. He said that the loss goes both ways.
So I have had and will have to look for mentors somewhere else. It's different in that the person doesn't know your issues really really well, so sometimes you don't really quite get to the place you'd like, but it's still valuable. And of course there's the benefit of learning from a variety of viewpoints. And I find I still learn from my T, too. But it is a trade-off.
Laurie sounds like a great role model. I can see why you'd want to work with her as a mentor. :)
Take care,
gg
Posted by Phillipa on June 10, 2007, at 20:12:14
In reply to Re: my T - therapist or mentor? (long) » wishingstar, posted by gardenergirl on June 10, 2007, at 14:39:43
Doesn't make me uncomfortable it's a bit like nursing in that you care about the patient. It's very hard as you have to swallow hurt a lot and this can end up hurting you years later or harden you. In my case it hurt me as now the roles have reversed and I know just enough to be dangerous to myself. I say keep your Laurie and ask her for a referral to someone with her same philosophy. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dory on June 10, 2007, at 20:30:18
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
wishy i am too tired to read all the replies... i am sure you have gotten lots of good advice already. i am wondering if Laurie could set you up with someone else as a mentor. Your connection with her has been stabilizing for you.. without your own stability you don't have a career at all. Your own health has to come first. There will be plenty of good mentors...Laurie had to learn from someone. Ask her for help in finding someone else.
but there are some things about what you said that struck me... i don't know if you need to learn to hide behind professionalism, or to make things not matter.. it reminds me of when i was training doing pre-vet. The pain we inflicted on animals (even if it was to help them) the horror of cutting into live flesh (it's harder than you think).. animals that died despite best efforts and the animals we put down. SOmetimes the sh*t i saw was enough to drive anyone insane... mistreated, neglected animals brought in to be put down for no good reason and i was powerless to do anything about it...
i helped put down a small litter of kittens... and i asked the vet if it ever got to a point where it didn't bother you. She said if it did you should quit. SHe said the animals always stuck with her and she felt pain for each one.
But there is a distance, a flexible wall you have to make to keep yourself from going insane. It would do you nor your clients any good if you got drained by each and every one. You have to put caring out without taking their pain in too much. You allow each one to impact you and stay with you, but not destroy your own energy.
i was able to do it for some of the work i did. The clinic work wasn't too bad, we were helping most of the animals and they had good owners. The shelter and farm work killed me. i'll never do it again. i wasn't able to get the distance needed to keep myself ok. i still cry myself to sleep over some of the horrors i saw.
i am sorry this came out sounding like it was about me.. but i am speaking of the parrallels you know? That distance is what you are thinking about, regardless of the career. Is it cold, uncaring? is it hiding behind professionalism? Big questions with no clear answers. i think the thing is to find where your distance threshold is and to work within those limits... so you might be able to safely work in one therapeutic area but not another. See what i mean?
It's a rough thing wishy. i couldn't make that wall, even a flexible one.
But don't give up Laurie, not until you have a good connection with someone else.
Posted by caraher on June 10, 2007, at 22:10:35
In reply to Re: my T - therapist or mentor? **some triggers** » wishingstar, posted by Dory on June 10, 2007, at 20:30:18
If you still want Laurie as a therapist, even as a "backup," don't do the mentor thing. Having someone good in the therapist role is much more important than having someone good in the mentor role, because your life is more important than your career.
Posted by frida on June 10, 2007, at 22:29:12
In reply to Re: my T - therapist or mentor? **some triggers**, posted by caraher on June 10, 2007, at 22:10:35
dear wishingstar,
I agree with what everyone else has shared...
Your life, health and well-being is more important than everything else...I'd find it hard to let go of Laurie's support, it would be hard not to be able to reach out to her if you need to, and she's been so safe for you and loyal...Maybe she can recommend someone else to be your mentor, but she can still be your T...?
wishing you well,
Frida
Posted by muffled on June 11, 2007, at 18:29:28
In reply to Re: my T - therapist or mentor? **some triggers**, posted by frida on June 10, 2007, at 22:29:12
Posted by wishingstar on June 11, 2007, at 20:53:07
In reply to Re: my T - therapist or mentor? **some triggers**, posted by frida on June 10, 2007, at 22:29:12
Wow... thanks every one of you for the great responses. I never expected so many! I'll just respond in one mass post.
Reading all your responses has really helped me to clairfy my feelings in my mind and come to a decision. I need to keep Laurie as a therapist. While I'm sure she'd be an excellent mentor/supervisor, and it'd be a career shaping experience for me, my own stability and health has to come first. As many of you said, without that, I wont have a career.
Dinah, I also really liked your point about taking care of my "safe space" with her. Her priorities would shift to include my clients, and she would likely not be as sensitive or cautious with me as she is now. I dont take criticism well in general, but it'd be VERY hard to hear from her.. and maybe could even undo a little of the therapy work we've done.. make me wonder about whether she really felt xyz, etc. It's absolutely not worth that risk. I hadnt thought of that issue so thanks for bringing it up.
Unfortunately I dont think shell be able to give me a referral for a mentor because we live 2 hours apart.. but I could easily find one on my own down here, if I choose to. That wont be a problem.
I have an appt to see Laurie tomorrow to talk about all this stuff and where the boundaries lie. I've decided that if it's an either/or choice (therapy OR mentor), I'll choose therapy. I'm wondering if we can work out a middle ground. I think that's what she wants to discuss.. where exactly the line is and which side I want to fall on. I'm hoping I can squeeze a little professional advice/discussion out of her without changing our relationship. But I'm feeling really scared about the appt.. very sensitive already to this boundary discussion and any "no, I cant do that"s that are to come. It forces the reality thast she is indeed just a therapist, and that's where our relationship ends. We've settled into a very nice (imo) pattern of what is and isnt okay, since I dont see her often in person, and it isnt discussed. We both just know. But discussing is hard. I'm afraid I'll feel rejected. Going to try my best to keep that in check and maybe even tell her at the beginning of the session that I'd like to save the last 5 min just to check in about that so I dont leave feeling rejected. I just dont know. I'm scared.
gg, what you said about your T saying it would be a "loss both ways" for him is wonderful. My guess is that Laurie would feel the same way. Shes told me before that she has had trouble letting go when I've moved away (and then come back later on) and I know she cares about me. I think she probably wants to be involved and is struggling with defining boundaries too. I dont really have to ask... I just know. It's a good feeling.
Overall, there's just no debate. It's not worth losing her just to become better at my career, when my career is constantly in jeopardy by my crazy moods and issues. I knew that from the very beginning but I guess I was hoping I could justify having her as a mentor becuase I think it would be so wonderful.. but you all have convinced me. Thanks everyone. :)
Posted by wishingstar on June 11, 2007, at 21:26:32
In reply to my T - therapist or mentor? (long), posted by wishingstar on June 10, 2007, at 10:48:24
Wanted to do a seperate response to pediddle's question about how my own issues/therapy interact with my work. I wasnt offended at all by the question! I'm not sure I have a very good answer (mostly because I'm not really sure yet) but I'll try. It's going to be some rambling as I find the answer as I type I guess...... :)
I'm doing a better job at seperating my own issues from the issues of my clients than I expected I would. Overall, I'm usually able to keep them completely seperate. Occasionally something a teen says will remind me of something I struggle with or that I've been through, but I usually can dismiss the thought without too much effort. I had a 14yo female client recently who was cutting and always showing me her cuts and the first few times it was VERY triggering.. I had to consciously not flinch or look away.. not because it grossed me out but because I was comparing my own SI to hers and being triggered to act myself. I got used to it fairly quickly though. In my own life, shutting things down instead of dealing with them is something I struggle with but I guess it's serving me well here.
Once I'm at work, I usually do pretty well. Getting to work can be a different story though. I've rescheduled many appts because I just wasnt able to get there. The line where I cannot function as a therapist is closer than the line where I cant function in life. Some days I can still function at home.. do an errand or 2, etc.. but am just not able to do therapy. It takes a LOT of emotional energy for me. While I usually "pull it together" no matter how I'm feeling all the time, I have to "pull it together" even more at work and that can be hard.
I sometimes struggle to relate to my teen girl clients because I missed most of my teen years due to severe depression, a traumatic event at 16, and a lot of isolation. I didnt go through what most teen girls go through with gossip and fashion and MTV and all that stuff. Again, it's something I'm learning though.
I find myself being hypersensitive to hurting my clients... I learned that very quickly with this recent CPS-report situation. I let it stick with me a little too long. But I'm improving and still learning to seperate. Self-confidence can be a problem for me as well, but I work with wonderful coworkers and they help remind me what I'm doing okay pretty often. They dont know about my personal issues really though.
I think in some ways having my own depression/therapy/etc experiences can be useful too. I know VERY well what it feels like to be the client, and how important it is to pick words carefully. I understand the power I have (I hope) and try to be careful with it. With one particular client, her situation was very different from mine but her underlying feelings were quite similar to mine as a teen, and I was really able to connect with her and speak to her almost as if I was speaking to a younger part of myself. I think that was beneficial for her. Unfortunately, that same case is the one I just lost. You can probably see why I felt so sad at hurting her like I did.
I think my biggest problem is probably teaching alternate coping mechanisms to the older kids who are internalizing (as opposed to those who are acting out). The reason being that I dont have a lot of good coping mechanisms myself either... so theyre hard to teach to anyone else. But I try my best. I've found that listening and validating can be just as important as anything I can teach them, at least at that age.
One of the neatest rewards from doing this work has been the new perspective I've gained (and continue to gain) on my own therapy and treatment over the years. As I mentioned in another post somewhere, I'm learning first hand that just because a therapist appears to not care or not feel a certain way, it doesnt mean it's true.. no matter how obvious it seems. I'm learning how emotionally hard it can be and what it feels like to truly want to help and just not have the answer. (I've seen that look of frustration and helplessness in several Ts faces before.) I guess it's just helping me to realize that they have more feelings that I usually assume and that theyre real people too.
I'm not sure if that makes any sense or answers your questions at all. I really dont mind talking about it and I'm not offended in the least - in fact, it's sort of neat for me to sort it out for myself too when others ask. So feel free to ask more questions if you ever want to.
Posted by muffled on June 11, 2007, at 22:42:15
In reply to re: my issues versus my work (v. long), posted by wishingstar on June 11, 2007, at 21:26:32
Wishy, sounds like you doing a good job taking care of yourself.
I'm not sure exactly, but from what I have gathered from idle bits, is that my t has a group she meets with occasionally, I guess to discuss T stuff. She also has a mentor or two as well. Plus she is in a practice with another T. So i think thats how she kinda has avenues to debrief and stuff.
I think thats important to T's.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by DAisym on June 11, 2007, at 23:05:01
In reply to re: my issues versus my work (v. long), posted by wishingstar on June 11, 2007, at 21:26:32
I just wanted to throw in that it seems like you are doing a great deal of self-reflection and that is a really good thing. And you also have already noted where you might over-empathize with a client. The only concern I'd have from your post was your need to reschedule, if it becomes chronic. It *does* take a huge amount of energy to meet and deal with clients. But there is anxiety and need on their side too, so rescheduling too frequently can be hard on them.
I hope your conversation goes well tomorrow and you continue to figure out what you need.
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