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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on April 19, 2007, at 1:36:24
Things are so bad and yet nothing is wrong. Nothing new anyway. I just can't figure out how to know what I know and deal with it. I'm coming apart (again) and can't face knowing how this is going to feel tomorrow, or the next day or over the weekend. It is too much to bear again. I can't do it.
I'm trying to write it all out, to let the paper absorb some of the grief and tears. I think I've saturated the keyboard. I didn't work today. I don't want to tomorrow. I'm a terrible mom right now. I just want to be left alone, under the covers. I don't even want to see my therapist. He can't help anymore.
I give up. Uncle. Game over. Say goodnight Gracie.
I wish I was more help here too. Sorry - I try but end up writing mostly incoherent drivel. I know, we don't keep track. But (wailing) I don't want it to be my turn again.
:(
Posted by annierose on April 19, 2007, at 7:08:12
In reply to Pity party, posted by Daisym on April 19, 2007, at 1:36:24
Just a thought - maybe this acute awareness of these lonely feelings came up because you just finished a major project. It feels like it is coming from that let-down feeling, "I did this, now what?" because bringing about that goal was difficult and rewarding, but the reward was fleeting, you seized the day but were hard on yourself for feeling happy afterwards.
I'm barely awake so my thinking faculties are not all awake yet.
Did you stay home from work and not see your T too? I hope you are able to keep the dialogue with him going. He is reaching out to you, so grab on and reach back.
With college age kids, the news can't be helping either. You are not a terrible mom. You're the best type of mom, you care, you're connected, your present. But even GREAT moms have bad days.
Love, me
Posted by gazo on April 19, 2007, at 9:18:01
In reply to Re: Pity party » Daisym, posted by annierose on April 19, 2007, at 7:08:12
oh daisy.. i am so sorry it's hard. :o(
you know this already, but these things come in waves.. parts of us send these things even when the rest of us don't know why.
I'm a big believer in the problem of right brain communication issues. Our speech center is in the left brain, along with all of our logic processes.. that voice in our head is from there. The right brain is pretty much nonverbal, but it has the creative center and a lot more emotionality. Split brain patients will take something from their closet with one hand and the other hand will select something else and they don't know why... it's kinda of like that when we are distressed sometimes.
you don't always have to *know* why. you don't always have to have a logical answer. SOmetimes you just need to nurture the feeling you.
try not to pull back from your T if you can.. as antigua said.. reach back.
be gentle with yourself.. allow yourself permission to be sad
much love and peace
Posted by gazo on April 19, 2007, at 9:20:08
In reply to Re: Pity party » annierose, posted by gazo on April 19, 2007, at 9:18:01
Posted by antigua on April 19, 2007, at 9:39:36
In reply to Re: Pity party » Daisym, posted by annierose on April 19, 2007, at 7:08:12
I agree with annierose. I know that when I finish something big, there's a let down. I'm hard on myself and sometimes all the effort feels wasted. Part of it is giving myself credit for feeling good about achieving something. I don't give myself the credit that others see I might deserve. Also, I invest so much emotional energy, that I know it taps back into being "good enough" for my parents so they wouldn't abandon me (although they did anyway and truth be told I didn't have a darn thing to do with that).
Go ahead and cry. Wish I could. Let it out.
best,
antigua
Posted by pegasus on April 19, 2007, at 10:54:20
In reply to Pity party, posted by Daisym on April 19, 2007, at 1:36:24
Oh Daisy, I wish I could hug you and make it better. You have done so much, with such a big burden, and it's ok to not stand up to it as well as you want sometimes. It's ok all the time.
Thanks so much for letting us know that you're in a particularly bad spot. You know that babble is glad to try to help. It's not even about not keeping track. I think many of us come here because we *can* try to help. And, of course, get help, too. But my point is that you're not a burden. You're part of what makes this place tick. We all learn so much from what you write, whether it's about suffering or surviving or thriving. It's all valuable contribution for us, as well as you.
Just take care of yourself as much as you can, ok? I know that you know it's better to keep that connection with your T, even when it feels hopeless. Remember that there are times when it doesn't feel hopeless.
peg
Posted by Phillipa on April 19, 2007, at 12:40:19
In reply to Re: Pity party » Daisym, posted by pegasus on April 19, 2007, at 10:54:20
And sometimes pity parties can be productive. Love phillipa take care of you for now
Posted by Poet on April 19, 2007, at 20:27:20
In reply to Pity party, posted by Daisym on April 19, 2007, at 1:36:24
Hi Daisy,
I'm making you some Cream of Wheat. Keep in mind I have destroyed stoves attempting to boil water, but I deem you to be in a full fledged emergency situation. Here it comes through cyberspace.
I feel things are bad when nothing is wrong, because I'm always expecting bad stuff to happen to me. It's like I walked around one banana peel, but there's another one I don't see that I'm going to skid on and fall. I know, I know, reframe the negativity.
From what I know you are far from a terrible mother. You love your kids, you care about them and you would never allow anyone to abuse them. That's more than I can say for my parents. So to me that makes you a great mom.
Sorry you're feeling bad, I hope the paper and the keyboard absorbs all the tears.
You have my permission to take off work tomorrow, too, you deserve a day off.
Poet
Posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 1:35:05
In reply to Re: Pity party » Daisym, posted by Poet on April 19, 2007, at 20:27:20
Thank you for the supportive messages. It means so much. I still want to stay in bed but forced myself out and to work. And I went to therapy. And cried some more.
Me: I wanted you to call me last night.
him: Why didn't you call me and tell me that? You know it is OK.
me: because I wanted YOU to call ME. But I know it is against the rules, I'm supposed to ask for what I want or need.
him: Why did you want me to call you?
me: I guess I wanted you to tell me this was all going to be OK eventually. I wanted to know you cared about whether I was still having a hard time or not. I know I'm supposed to take care of my broken parts myself but I'm just so tired!
Him: so, since I didn't call, I don't care? You know that's not true. And I have called you, so it isn't a hard and fast "rule." I just don't always know if calling will help or make it worse. If you could make the rules, what would you say? What would help you?
Me: I don't know. I just know what I wanted last night. I'll think about it. Maybe I'd want you to hold me.
Him: I am. Can't you feel it?I could. I always can. And the session was fine, we worked on an old memory that has been triggered. My therapist was solid and reassuring and he took time to talk to the younger parts. But he said he'd like to know what will help and how can I let him know?
So Babblers - what would the rules look like if you could write them?
Posted by pegasus on April 20, 2007, at 10:23:26
In reply to Thanks and a question -- All, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 1:35:05
You know, I think the problem is that I wouldn't be happy with any real rules. I want magic. I want my T to read my mind, and to not exist when I'm not there, and to back off when I need to do things myself, but be close when I need extra support. I want hugs when I want them, and no touching when I don't want to be touched. I want constant and detailed, but truthful, reassurance that I'm special. I want honest and gentle recognition of the things I need to work on, but only when I'm feeling strong enough to face them.
OK, well, we all want that, don't we. So, here's what I think I could best live with in real life:
I think that if I could set the rules, I would *want* the rule that my T would not ever initiate a call to me, but that she would call me back in a reasonable amount of time anytime I left a message for her. If I know that my T might sometimes call me, then I'd be always hoping for a call, or feeling bad when a call didn't come that I wanted. And If *I* was the one who got to say that she couldn't call, then I'd feel better about the rule for not calling. What hurts is when it's the T that sets the rule, because it sounds like, "Don't bother me. You're too much work." Of course, that freedome necessarily implies that another client might choose to set the rule that the T should always call when they had a notion to, or at set intervals, or some other rule that might not be acceptable to the T. So my rule would never work.
I feel like I didn't help at all here. Sorry.
peg
Posted by JoniS on April 20, 2007, at 15:18:21
In reply to Thanks and a question -- All, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 1:35:05
Thanks for your post Daisy. The little snippit from your session just about made me cry - so tender!
Seems like the rules you have are good, setting healthy boundaries and all. If I could change somehting, I guess I would like for my T to call me back when I email or email me back with support. I am allowed to call my T any time, but sometimes I don't want to talk on the phone, I just want to know he cares about me. My T is not real responsive to emails, yet he checks his constantly.
I hope you get what you need in the rules.
hugs,
joni
Posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 18:32:06
In reply to Re: Thanks and a question -- All » Daisym, posted by pegasus on April 20, 2007, at 10:23:26
>>>>>You know, I think the problem is that I wouldn't be happy with any real rules. I want magic. I want my T to read my mind, and to not exist when I'm not there, and to back off when I need to do things myself, but be close when I need extra support. I want hugs when I want them, and no touching when I don't want to be touched. I want constant and detailed, but truthful, reassurance that I'm special. I want honest and gentle recognition of the things I need to work on, but only when I'm feeling strong enough to face them.
<<<<My first thought when I read this was, "you've described what I wanted in a mom." *sigh* I usually get this from my therapist, except the touching/hugging part. He misses things sometimes, of course. But not often enough to get in a snite over. (I say now, wait until it happens again.)>>>>>>OK, well, we all want that, don't we. So, here's what I think I could best live with in real life: I think that if I could set the rules, I would *want* the rule that my T would not ever initiate a call to me, but that she would call me back in a reasonable amount of time anytime I left a message for her.
<<<<<<Ever? I think in the norm client initiated is good, but the few times mine has called to check in, it has meant a great deal to me. He doesn't do it often, or lightly. Most of the time we set it up ahead of time, an arranged check in for Sat morning or something, and then he calls me. But there have been times when he'll call in the evening after a particularly hard session. Once he called right after I left a session in order to access my voice mail on purpose. He said he wanted me to have a recording of his voice for the weekend. It really surprised me and touched me in a deep way. I bet like getting a card from your therapist did for you.>>>>If I know that my T might sometimes call me, then I'd be always hoping for a call, or feeling bad when a call didn't come that I wanted.
<<<<I can see how this could happen. But it didn't/hasn't for me. Perhaps I should clarify that there is no expectation that he will call, though sometimes I *wish* he would. Just like I wished my mom would see me somehow. But we've worked hard on "ask for what you need" so even when I call I know I need to say, "please call me, or don't call me" -- though he has been known to ignore the "don't call me" part if he thinks I didn't mean it. :) Scary how well he knows me now.>>>>>And If *I* was the one who got to say that she couldn't call, then I'd feel better about the rule for not calling. What hurts is when it's the T that sets the rule, because it sounds like, "Don't bother me. You're too much work."
<<<<<Totally! I'm always telling my therapist that he should have a list of "rules" posted. That way banging into those boundaries wouldn't be so painful. Especially if this is your first time in therapy. When he says it is part of the process and not everyone gets so upset about mistakes, I just kind of sneer at him. I think is is way less painful to put the brake on yourself than to have them do it.>>>>Of course, that freedome necessarily implies that another client might choose to set the rule that the T should always call when they had a notion to, or at set intervals, or some other rule that might not be acceptable to the T. So my rule would never work.
<<<<It would though, because you are essentially saying things are negotiated. And I think "rules" do change as therapy progresses. Some things that were done at the beginning of therapy are now not done because I don't need them to be. Other things - like me talking first - have fallen away because we have such a fluid working relationship. And the other thing I always hope is that therapy is individualized. I assume my therapist does what a client needs, but he doesn't tell me what adjustments he makes for others. In fact, the only hard and fast thing I've ever heard him generalize is his position on hugs. He doesn't hug clients. Period. I can understand why, given his specialty. I don't always like it...OH and -- "another client"??? Nope. There aren't any, are there? (la la la -- I can't hear you!)
>>>>>I feel like I didn't help at all here. Sorry.
<<<<<You did. You helped me think about it more. After rereading what I wrote and what you wrote, it strikes me that it is usually me who refers to "rules" or boundaries or whatever. He rarely imposes things on me, everything is open for discussion, he just refuses to be a mind-reader!
It is an ongoing, easily identified, hard to fix, fear of being a pain-in-the-patuti. I want to be be the perfect therapy client, no needs, no angst, just lots of insight and reflection. (OK, stop laughing.)
Posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 19:12:49
In reply to Re: Thanks and a question -- All, posted by JoniS on April 20, 2007, at 15:18:21
It's tricky, isn't it? Because what we are good at (emails) they might not be. I think part of it is our comfort, after all we belong to a chat board!
If you don't want/need calls back, maybe you could find something that you hang on to that gives you comfort. Ask specifically for an email that you will keep that lets you know he is there. Or a voice mail in which he tells you specific things. This works for me.
I think email "tone" can be misinterpreted so easily that many therapists shy away from anything too lengthy.
If I were to ask you, "does your therapist care about you?" what would you say?
Posted by JoniS on April 20, 2007, at 22:17:08
In reply to Re: Thanks and a question -- All » JoniS, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 19:12:49
Daisy-
You're right! Of course I know he cares. How wise you are. :-}I noticed that your post started out by telling us your troubles, but quickly you switched your attention to helping all of us who responded to your post.
"Things are so bad and yet nothing is wrong. Nothing new anyway. I just can't figure out how to know what I know and deal with it. I'm coming apart (again) and can't face knowing how this is going to feel tomorrow, or the next day or over the weekend. It is too much to bear again. I can't do it
I'm trying to write it all out, to let the paper absorb some of the grief and tears. I think I've saturated the keyboard. I didn't work today. I don't want to tomorrow. I'm a terrible mom right now. I just want to be left alone, under the covers. I don't even want to see my therapist. He can't help anymore.
I give up. Uncle. Game over. Say goodnight Gracie.
I wish I was more help here too. Sorry - I try but end up writing mostly incoherent drivel. I know, we don't keep track. But (wailing) I don't want it to be my turn again."
---- I keep double checking, am I correct, is this the same person? So sad and then so wise and encouraging - What brings on the change for you? Is it that the writing and the tears sort of 'purged it out'? Or is it that you so badly dont want it to be your turn again that you tuck your stuff away and help others instead? Or is it that your appointment with T took care of it all?
I just wanted to tell you that you don't write incoherent drivel and your input/feedback is so valuable to me.
Thanks!
Posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 23:12:14
In reply to Pity Party - Thanks and a question -- All, posted by JoniS on April 20, 2007, at 22:17:08
Caught me. My MO is to leave my stuff at the door whenever possible. I help other people soooo much better than I help myself. I throw myself into my work, into trying to help here and I research, read and write until I'm exhausted. Less time to think, or maybe too tired to remember? I don't know. But yeah, same person. I think.
Sessions with my therapist usually help, as much as I might fight that. He is tough on me to not hold it in and he reminds me that he is holding the hope. I told him Thursday that I forget what I'm hoping for.
And the truth is, I've done this my whole life. I've gone from being abused in the afternoon to eating dinner with the family - and no one notices anything is wrong. I spent whole weekends with my dad and was returned to my mom on Mondays a complete wreck...and she never noticed. So I guess I'm just really good at putting away the horror of how I feel and being "fine" in the world.
Funny that you should post this. At group this week I was so triggered off and on that edge of hysterical. But I stopped myself and said, "it's fine." The group therapist said, "how did you just do that?" I was surprised and said, "what, swallow the tears? Are you kidding? Years of practice..."
So - so.
But, You didn't completely answer my question though - which was sincere. Or maybe I didn't ask it in a complete enough way -- How do you know he cares about you? (I'm glad you know he does.) I'd really like to know.
Posted by JoniS on April 21, 2007, at 8:00:13
In reply to little daisy vs. Big Daisy » JoniS, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 23:12:14
Wow. Thanks for sharing that. I hope little daisy can get what she needs for continued healing!
Just a side note. I can swallow my tears and grow up quick too. - Survival instinct from childhood. And I can really keep the feelings down so deep, who knows whats in there! I bet that is a common trait among babblers.
OK I know he cares because - he constantly tells me "I'm not going anywhere" he makes himself available by phone even on vacations, etc and often tells me to call him if I need to. He has called me in between sessions a couple of times to check on me. He has emailed me 2 or 3 times just say hello and ask how I'm doing (although I dont think he wants me to go into a therapy session even though I want to) He is patient with me and he's genuine. He has, at times extended the session when he's concerned about how I am and doesn't want me to leave if I'm not "alright" And, last of all, when we've been working on me telling him how I feel about him, he asked if I want to know how he feels about me. (Of course I do!) He said that he cares deeply and profoundly about me. (I still couldn't tell him how I feel about him)
Isn't it crazy that even after all that, I still doubt and want to know that he cares?
I hope you have some similar experiences with your T.
Take Care
Joni
Posted by frida on April 21, 2007, at 9:00:07
In reply to little daisy vs. Big Daisy » JoniS, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 23:12:14
Daisy,
Your post moved me to tears.
I can understand so well hiding your feelings and tears...feeling that you are falling apart inside and that you don't know how to hang on, while you smile and nobody can realize...
and it hurts my heart to think of a little girl learning to do this so early on...
my T told me last time that no wonder i just stopped talking completely...when i was 6 and i had to go to school after "things" happened and i couldn't say the thing that was hurting me the most.
It's very painful and hard.Your T does care about you...
I know how hard it is to feel that too.
love to you
Frida
Posted by gazo on April 21, 2007, at 20:33:17
In reply to Thanks and a question -- All, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 1:35:05
daisy i will read the rest of the thread and try to respond to your question.. but wanted to say that your convo with your T was very moving to me..
Posted by gazo on April 21, 2007, at 20:59:48
In reply to Pity Party - Thanks and a question -- All, posted by JoniS on April 20, 2007, at 22:17:08
the "rules" for me.. would be:
* of course the mind reading, especially as i literally cannot speak words when they have important feelings attached
*i want him to sit closer to me.. just at the perimeter of my personal space.
* i want him to call me because i can't call him... i am too scared. i want him to soothe me but i am afraid
* i'd like to end the sessions with a hug... mostly because touch is a problem for me and i'd like a safe place to learn to be ok with it
*i'd like him to push me harder on some things, like maybe checking in with him each day for now...just to be sure i am still alive, but to know when to ease off.
* i'd like him to tell me it would matter to him if i wasn't here anymore.. that he would notice the little hole left in the world where i used to be
* i'd like him to be outright if he truly understands the danger i am in.
* i'd like him to tell me that i matter when i am not in session with him... that maybe, just maybe he wonders how i am outside of session. i am not looking to have him think about me a lot.. but just a thought... like i matter.
Posted by pegasus on April 21, 2007, at 22:20:23
In reply to Re: Thanks and a question -- All » pegasus, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 18:32:06
<<<<<<Ever? I think in the norm client initiated is good, but the few times mine has called to check in, it has meant a great deal to me.
Yeah, I do think it would have to be ever for me. Because if I was really attached to a T, and I thought that it was in the realm of possibility for them to call me, I'd probably manipulate the hell out of them to try to get them to call me. I mean, not on purpose, but as a type of subconscious testing. And inevitably, they would end up failing the test at some point. I just think that for me it is better to understand that a T won't call me.
Although, my current T has actually called me. And it was nice. But, I'm not very attached to her. For example, today she called to tell me that she has to cancel our appointment for next week because of a death in her family. And this is after I haven't seen her in the past 3 weeks because of her vacation. But that was totally fine with me. In fact, I'd been thinking about canceling anyway, because of scheduling issues.
> <<<<But we've worked hard on "ask for what you need" so even when I call I know I need to say, "please call me, or don't call me" -- though he has been known to ignore the "don't call me" part if he thinks I didn't mean it. :) Scary how well he knows me now.
See, now, I'd totally abuse that. I'd all the time be calling saying "don't call me" but being obviously in a bad state, to see if he'd call me back. All subconsciously, of course.
<<<<<I think is is way less painful to put the brake on yourself than to have them do it.
Exactly. At least when the relationship feels very intense.
> OH and -- "another client"??? Nope. There aren't any, are there? (la la la -- I can't hear you!)
Oh, right, what was I thinking? I had this crazy notion that there would be other clients. What a ridiculous fantasy!
:)
Peg
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on April 22, 2007, at 18:32:52
In reply to Thanks and a question -- All, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2007, at 1:35:05
The rules look like this
You have a tranmitter where you send out a signal "Daisy needs to be called" it can be conscious or unconscious. kind of like ESP, or perhaps a voicemail.
Just says "call me"
and that's all. and then you can take it from there.
Mind reading would come in awfully handy in these situations.
sorry you been doing crappy. I invited you to my safe place, in a thread somewhere below...
best,
-Ll
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