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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
i see my T tomorrow. Two weeks is hard.. it gives me enough time between sessions to work myself into a bind. i don't know that we'll ever get to anything bigger.
so i am all ticked off. i have been reading up on therapy and it has made me really mad. i have to watch how i say this because i don't want to be uncivil.. it's a tough line. i have just been seeing so much stuff out there that really shows the underbelly of therapy. Like one discipline basically ridiculing the other. Hello? Do you guys not know you're arguing in front of the kids? We can hear you! D*mn.
it got worse from there. i read one site, meant for T's which was about DBT... and it said that once a therapeutic alliance was solid the T should "announce" that if the client didn't make significant progress then the T would terminate....WTF?!?
in another they said that clients should go off of meds because they couldn't experience and challenge their emotions. i'm not joking. It wasn't even qualified by saying in what situations or anything.. it was a blanket statement. It *implied* that meds were inhibiting the true cure - therapy. Good luck to the therapist who thinks they can "cure" a bipolar through talk therapy alone.
then there were the things like calling clients "treatment failures" or "difficult." It was phrased without any possibility of the theory or approach being mismatched for the client. Nope. If you tried CBT and it didn't help you then YOU are the problem. Never anywhere did they talk about treatments being inadequate or T's being just crappy at their job. My god. Do you know any profession in which the workers get their job right 100% of the time?
and the individual schools of thought all seem to think they have THE answer. None of them seem to look at the whole person. "it's his cognitions" "it's her emotions" "it's his childhood" and so on.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
it's really awful. All the literature meant for T's seems to categorize us as objects. None of it referred to us as people. "The subject."
Then there are the studies and papers that glow over the 55% success rate of whatever treatment. Um... what about the 45% who are still in misery?
i found the whole thing dehumanizing.
Then of course i discover stuff about CBT, etc and learn that my old T wasn't playing fair. i have to save that for another time because i am ***really*** upset about it.
i don't know that i will ever be able to make this work with the new T. He seems great as a person.. but it sticks in me that i have to pay him to give a rat's fanny. It bothers me that therapy has been so quantified instead of qualified. It's objective vs subjective even though our side has to be subjective.
i want this to work. i do. i am going to tell him exactly what i said here. But i know that nothing he can say will *make* me trust him, that part is on me. i don't know that i am able to.
why does the field of psychology have to be this way?
Posted by sunnydays on April 8, 2007, at 17:23:18
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
((((gazo))))
Just be aware that there are many sites on the internet that are not reputable and where you won't find reliable info. I wouldn't completely trust any site about therapy unless it was a .edu address or had someone with a PhD attached to, and even then a lot of people can have their own agendas. So your T might be great. Have you looked up eclectic therapy? Most T's actually consider themselves eclectic - drawing on whatever technique they feel will be most effective from many different schools.
sunnydays
Posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:46:01
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
ok. d*mmit. i suck. going now.Life is really really frickin hard.. too hard. nevermind. gone.
Posted by sunnydays on April 8, 2007, at 17:56:26
In reply to Re: tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigg, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:46:01
I'm sorry if what I said upset you gazo. I truly didn't mean to. I was just trying to help you a little bit in case the sites you found weren't that reputable. I'm really really sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way. I truly didn't mean to.
sunnydays
Posted by bil on April 8, 2007, at 18:08:41
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
Gazo-
I do understand totally what you are saying.
Several years ago I thought that one route to try to heal myself was to do a counselling course myself; I completed the first year of a certified course, and was well into the second year when I decided to drop out.
One of the primary things that really annoyed me was the blind adherence to different 'schools' of teaching... (one of my professors said that Carl Rogers was 'god'... oh, puh-leese!!) while another thought Freud could do no wrong. Ever.What did it for me was that during the final part of the second year, all we focused on was the 'code of practice', which is basically the legal jargon that a therapist uses to cover their back.
I was supposedly studying to learn basic counselling skills.... but all they were going to teach us was how to compare counselling ethics to other 'professional sector' ethics, (and yes, if I'd stuck the course, I would now be a qualified counselor).
All they really taught us was how to use a few basic listening skills- echo, echo, echo, paraphrase, and re-phrase. That's it, basically!I am not impressed with the therapy profession as a whole.... I'm looking into alternative ways of healing now.
bil
Posted by madeline on April 8, 2007, at 18:37:58
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
I've actually thought about this a lot.
I'm a seasoned veteran of therapy and, like you, one of the first things I did was read a bunch of stuff about theories behind therapy.
Then for months I hated my psychiatrist (but for some reason kept going - I think just to tell him that I hated him and his entire profession).
He just listened, challenged me when I made it personal, but primarily just listened.
I threw everything at him but the kitchen sink.
Well, it finally ran its course - then I realized that I loved him and started hating him for that and that finally ran its course. Then finally, I got to work.
Look, therapy is tough, and the relationship we develop with our therapist is complicated and the stuff we talk about in therapy is tough.
I think, and this is based solely on your posts - that's all I have, is that you are afraid. Your last "therapeutic alliance" (what the heck is that anyway?) didn't end well and naturally you are apprehensive about entering into another one. It's okay. Take your concerns to this new guy (if you want to) and just see what he says.
IMO, he shouldn't try to defend any of the theories as the absolute truth, but rather should just listen to what YOU have to say about them.
When it comes down to it, WE do the work of therapy and NOT the therapist. WE are the ones that have to grieve, process all that crap, deal with the "transference" issues, pay the money etc...
Yeah some therapists aren't so hot (man, do I have some stories), but they don't control our recovery - they are simply the coach IMO.
All I can say is, when all of my tears have reached the sea, I will still view therapy as magic and my therapist a magician. But in reality, he didn't do all that much.
Posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 19:30:10
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
i just posted elsewhere that it was my last post.. but i saw sunny's post..
sunny it isn't you. you didn't say anything wrong. i did.
i am not doing good and it is seeping out my pores. i am spiralling.
i am angry at no one but i am angry
i am in pain
my life is a farce... a joke
it's all about to come crashing down and there is nothing i can do to stop it
i have nothing to hold onto. no one to hold onto.i called and left a message that i won't be coming to tomorrow's appt. i'm not going back. There is no point. It was self indulgent idiocy on my part to think someone could help me. i guess that officially makes me a "treatment failure."
so, i am leaving babble for now. as long as i am like this i will only do more harm than good. i'm going to turn off the lights and the computer and sit in the dark until i feel safe again.
Posted by frida on April 8, 2007, at 19:42:36
In reply to Re:i need to leave now**trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 19:30:10
Dear Gazo,
I am so sorry you are feeling so bad and you are feeling hopeless..
I wish you could go to tomorrow's appointment..you deserve help...
we care, I hear how deeply you are hurting..stay safe,
Fridayou do deserve help and you can be helped...we all do. love to you.
Posted by Dinah on April 8, 2007, at 20:46:41
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
Gazo, I'm deeply buried in my project and haven't had time to read your responses, but you're right in that reading what some therapists have to say is enough to scare any client off of therapy.
The point is that those are *some* therapists. Different therapists believe differently.
Also, they have to make an effort, when writing for clinical reasons, to sound clinical and scientific. That doesn't mean that we aren't people to them. Just that they're writing for a different purpose.
It might be better for you to read some of Yalom's work. He's a therapist who clearly sees the whole person.
(Using the therapeutic alliance as leverage to discourage self destructive behavior is in the clinical repertoire, but a wise clinician uses it judiciously. My therapist hypothetically asked me what I would do if he threatened to terminate me if I didn't stop self injuring, and I told him that I'd hypothetically lie my head off. He said "I thought so" and it was never mentioned again.)
Read some Yalom. It's a good counterbalance to the ummm... other type of therapist.
Posted by notfred on April 9, 2007, at 8:16:21
In reply to tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigger**, posted by gazo on April 8, 2007, at 17:10:03
I would not use the internet to decide information
about T's. The internet is not a primary source
of unbiased info on T's.
"but it sticks in me that i have to pay him to give a rat's fanny."
Why should they work for free ? They would not have any way to know you unless you came to them for services.
Posted by pegasus on April 9, 2007, at 9:54:10
In reply to Re: tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigg, posted by notfred on April 9, 2007, at 8:16:21
> "but it sticks in me that i have to pay him to give a rat's fanny."
>
>
> Why should they work for free ? They would not have any way to know you unless you came to them for services.I've had similar thoughts to both of these sentiments in the past. The way I look at it now is that I understand that it's not feasible to expect a T to work for free, but also, I don't believe that it's the pay that makes them care. And, it's not the money that they're caring about when they do care. I don't think you could do this kind of work for very long if you didn't actually have caring feelings for most of your clients. I mean, just imagine it! It would be close to my personal definition of hell.
And, yes, they need to make a living like the rest of us. And so they can't see (many) clients for free. But then, how many of us will do our work for free after all, even if we love it? And if they were just after money, they'd probably be in a different profession. Most Ts don't make all that much money, even when it seems to us that we're paying a lot. They have to subtract from our fee their office rent, liability insurance (required in most states), and fees for their own supervision, not to mention things like paying for their own health insurance, paying extra self employment tax, paying off their student loans, etc. Most Ts I know (and I know a lot) really are not rolling in the dough. And most of them do have a couple of clients to whom they charge very low rates or see for free.
It is a weird set up that we pay them, and then what we value most from them is that they care about us. So it looks like we're paying them to care. But I think it's more accurate to say that we're paying them to be available to us. And then out of that naturally comes genuine caring (most of the time).
Just wanted to add that to the mix.
peg
Posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:20:00
In reply to Re: tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigg, posted by pegasus on April 9, 2007, at 9:54:10
I think Scented Garden's question is mostly an expressin of anger at his/her T, and the situation that evolved with her. The fact is, the meaning of a situation, the intensity of quality of the feelings, can never be reduced to the externals-- or situations.
We can love people in all sorts of unexpected wyas and places. And it's not possible to reduce or define what love is-- we recognize it, and try to make sense of it== but it just is. And we can't know what exactly it is for ourselves, much less others.
I don't think paying for therapeutic services from a T explains, or limits the extent and quality of the feeling-- or, for that matter, creates it. It is, it evolves out of what two people do and think and experience, it isn't predefined, or predetermined by the circumstances of their meeting-- nor is it enhanced or produced by them either.
If someone's T says s/he loves the patient=-- or someone loves their T-- that's means a tremendous amount. That's a precious and rare thing. But caring, of various degrees-- all of them entirely real-- is not rare. It's very often the case. It 's a real as any caring. It can be as deep as any caring.
It has spatial and temporal limitations-- based on, as notfred points out, the way the relationship was set up. It is and has to be carried out and felt within the limits of a therapy relationship, and always must be in the context of both the positive and curtailed possibilities of that context.
So of course it's important to tell your t what you feel about him or her, if that feels importnat. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't.
But I don't agree that the caring isn't the same--- or that it's because of the money. Or that, because the relationship requires the money, the caring has any real cause/effect connection to the money-- other than that's one of the defining characteristics that permits the relationship at all-- given our social expectations and forms.
Sorry for rambling, but I'm too tired to say this very well.
Honore
Posted by notfred on April 9, 2007, at 22:45:27
In reply to Re: tomorrow's the day but i am ticked off **trigg, posted by Honore on April 9, 2007, at 10:20:00
>
> Sorry for rambling, but I'm too tired to say this very well.
>
> Honore
Not at all, well said.
This is the end of the thread.
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