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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 10:02:24
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide -- trigger, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 7:36:30
I think I understand you much better now, One Woman Cine. I KNEW there must be something behind your posts.
I am very sorry for your terrible loss. The pain that suicide has caused you is clear in your writing.
I can also see now how my own posts upset you. If only you had shared this experience then. When you posted the article about the university compelling suicidal students to get help, you must have felt hopeful that if only such a policy had existed for your loved one, maybe they would still be alive. My arguing against the use of coercion must have hurt you.
I can only say that was never my intent.
I believe I have made my own views against the use of force and the need for prevention of abuse clear on other threads and do not want to reiterate them here. I'll only say that the purpose behind my posts was not to harm but to help (as well as to not feel so terribly alone).
Awful things happened to me. I do not want them to happen to others. Suicide happened to you and your loved one. You do not want it to happen to others.
We are more similar, perhaps, than either of us knew.
> The pain of suicide is complicated - but pain people feel ends at some point - but the pain of suicide never does.I think this sentence says volumes: while the pain of suicidal people will end at some point, you believe, the pain that suicide survivors feel never does.
I think that pain is pain is pain. I don't think that it is possible to say that this person's pain is temporary while that person's pain is forever. Everyone must bear their own pain. Some people are not able to.
I think what another poster said about some mental illnesses possibly being terminal is true. Like the family of cancer victims, there are some survivors who mourn the suicidal person's loss but are glad that their suffering has ended.
I did not know your loved one and cannot know their reasons, but as a suicidal person myself, I can say that I do not believe it is a decision that is made lightly or to purposefully cause another pain.
Perhaps if you could find a way to frame your tragedy as your loved one not being as strong as you and being unable to bear their own ""unspeakable agony" any longer, you could find a way to forgiveness and peace.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 12:06:18
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers*************** » one woman cine, posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on February 7, 2007, at 8:22:33
It's 40 years since we were friends in an awful boarding school, and a good 30 since he did it, so anger is out of the question. He came back to the city we'd been to school in, known without affection as 'the deep north' by people like us. He would have been gay (as we say nowdays....all my friends were, though to talk about it was inconceivable), he would have felt that was a category worthy of ethical comment, he would have taken drugs and had the usual problems growing up, he formed the unfortunate belief that psychiatry could help him, he chose the wrong psych, the ECT was terrible and to prevent any more he jumped in the path of a moving train. A lot of gay kids kill themselves, or did. I have to work at imagining people worrying about such things now, but I guess they do.
Posted by cubic_me on February 7, 2007, at 12:19:09
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers***************, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 12:06:18
After a close friend killed herself (2002) was the first time I sought therapy, though I still find it hard to talk about. I'd supported her after numerous suicide attempts and we'd been each other's only confidants, so when she went, there was no-one who I felt I could talk to. We'd always said that we wouldn't kill ourselves if we didn't do it together and I felt she'd broken that promise and left me feeling horrific.
She died violently and in an unusual way which was difficult to prove was suicide, and I was involved in helping the police, submitting a statement to the inquest etc, which made it harder for me and I already had pre-existing, untreated depression.
> He came back to the city we'd been to school in,
Declan, that strikes a chord with me. My friend also came back to the city we went to school in. Infact we'd both gone there for the weekend to meet up with each other, but the morning before we were due to meet that evening,, she did it.
Posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
In reply to Re: Survivors of suicide **triggers***************, posted by cubic_me on February 7, 2007, at 12:19:09
I wanted to make a point about calling people who commit suicide selfish...
It is impossible to measure pain. But what if the pain a survivor feels is but a fraction of the pain the suicidal person does. Try to imagine the suicidal person is in ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times more pain.
Sit with that thought for a minute.
This agony goes on relentlessly and they believe it is endless. You may believe pain is temporary but they don’t. That is not their experience.
(Some believe that despair will end if you only wait and/or get treatment but that is not always the case. There is no way to know when or even if a person's pain will end. If you truly think that ALL pain is fleeting, then you must also think that your own pain as a survivor is only temporary).
Do you expect them to endure this pain X 1000 they believe, and experience, as lasting forever in order to spare you one tenth of the pain, pain you believe will end?
If your answer is yes, I ask you to look very hard at who you are calling selfish.
(Of course, the converse could be true. The survivor’s pain could be greater. There is no way to measure pain and because it is not possible to know whose pain is worse, you cannot even hope to imagine the depths of despair the suicidal person finds themselves unable to bear).
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 13:58:50
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
toojane -
Have you survived a suicide of a loved one - yes or no?
this is not the place to debate suicide or suicidal behavior or who's pain is greater - it's for support, as you have once said - if you wish to weigh in with your experience, please do so - I believe you have advocated for support/discussion on prior threads and I respected that.Please be respectful of the thread and those who have survived suicide -
if you wish to debate this, please start another thread.
Thanks.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:02:16
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
Please do not generalize,assume or hijack a thread that took me alot of courage to start.
If you want to talk about your experience please do so. There is not one mention of you and your experience, just generalities.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:03:57
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
You may remember a wonderful Chinese film called "Farewell My Concubine", I think. The main actor in that, a lovely looking man, called a friend he had an appointment with in downtown Hong Kong and said 'I'll be down in a moment', at which point he jumped off the building to their meeting point. His boyfriend said he had suffered from depression for 20 years.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:11:37
In reply to Re: Selfish, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:03:57
I wonder how his boyfriend felt.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:16:48
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
or refer to me or paraphrase me.
Thanks.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:23:33
In reply to Re: Selfish » Declan, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:11:37
I have no idea, but it seems not to have been a surprise and the treatment for the depression seems not to have been successful.
Lurps asked me how my feelings have changed over time. I hang on to these feelings (I think) because it is a way of rememberance. So, it more or less hasn't changed that much. But it has informed certain of my opinions, and I suppose there I do feel anger (bad psychiatry, stupid attitudes)...not at anyone specifically so much.
It has certainly affected the way I treat my own children.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:36:31
In reply to Forgetting » one woman cine, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:23:33
you feel this way in regards to your friends suicide - I mean, this affects you how, by retaining the anger - I though you said you weren't angry because it happened so long ago.
I may be confused, please forgive me.
I can only speak for myself - & I would rather keep this very personal thread on an personal level with personal experiences, rather than speak in generalities and assumptions and movies we might have seen.
I do not want something immediate, visceral, and unrelenting to be turned into a abstract debate.
I'm sorry you have had the same experience - anger is a feeling that accompanies me as well.
I'm curious though, why are you angry - and at whom?
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:45:53
In reply to I'm not sure I understand..., posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:36:31
I suppose any anger I have is that precious life is wasted by human silliness....like bad psychiatry (giving ECT to young people with normal problems) and unkind attitudes.
I remember those people fondly and am sorry it ended up like that.
Posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:54:44
In reply to Re: I'm not sure I understand... » one woman cine, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 14:45:53
I am sorry for bad psychiatry and thinking/actions that have been medieval, including homophobia - suicide is a tragedy for everyone it touches - I can't emphasize that enough.
the whole thing is bad, bad, bad - loaded trauma.
My experience tells me so much gets written about people who suicide. Talking about surviving is taboo too.
For all the people I've talked to, it's shameful and secretive - it doesn't get as nearly as much "airplay" as the folks who suicide - but survivors deserve just as much attention and compassion for their pain that they are left with for the rest of their lives.
Posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 15:19:36
In reply to compassion » Declan, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:54:44
Suicide involves some choice, and it is that perhaps we find so difficult and painful.
(I have to say that it is also that which earns my grudging respect.)
But it seems peculiarly difficult for us to process.
The suicide of a child must be absolutely frightful for the surviving parents.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 7:16:53
In reply to Re: compassion, posted by Declan on February 7, 2007, at 15:19:36
or the suicide of a parent for a child.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 8:19:11
In reply to toojane - please do not post to me. » toojane, posted by one woman cine on February 7, 2007, at 14:16:48
> or refer to me or paraphrase me.
>
> Thanks.& that includes any name changes.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 9:43:49
In reply to Selfish, posted by toojane on February 7, 2007, at 13:48:17
Re:selfishness
I understand that other people will have other views on this, and I totally respect their views, but this is how I think about things.
My close friend killed herself, and I have made a serious attempt at suicide - so I've seen it from both angles. To me, suicide is selfish, but what's wrong with being selfish? I know my friend tried as hard as she could to cope, and that she was never happy. Who am I to be angry at her for making the decision to die? It can't have been an easy one to make, and I respect her decision, even though it hurt me, her parents, her sister etc immesurably.
I suppose I've come to that viewpoint in trying to come to terms with the anger her death caused me initially. Ofcourse I don't want anyone to be in so much pain they kill themselves, but I do believe that some people get to such a point that living is intollerable and they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain for the sake of other people.
Posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
In reply to Re: Selfish, posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 9:43:49
>>>but I do believe that some people get to such a point that living is intollerable and they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain for the sake of other people.<<<
and on the flip side...
some people get to such a point with grief, anger, and unanswered questions from *surviving the suicide of a loved one* that life is intolerable they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain.......but they do, somehow.
some make it, some don't. it can be a life of agony surviving a loved one's suicide...talking of the pain the deceased was in prior to their chosen death doen't trump out the pain the survivors are left to live the rest of their lives in.
we all hurt. some manage. some don't.
we all end up hurt from some aspect of it. and we're not trying to discuss better, worse, richer poorer etc....just that ppl left after suicide have a hard road to travel and often revisiting the "it is okayish because they freed themself from so much pain" refrain can salt their wounds.
folks on this board are adults for most part and can take care of themselves...suicide is obviously a triggery subject for many.....consider this our contribution on the matter.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 10:25:05
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
> >>>but I do believe that some people get to such a point that living is intollerable and they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain for the sake of other people.<<<
>
> and on the flip side...
>
> some people get to such a point with grief, anger, and unanswered questions from *surviving the suicide of a loved one* that life is intolerable they shouldn't have to continue living with that pain.......but they do, somehow.
>
> some make it, some don't. it can be a life of agony surviving a loved one's suicide...talking of the pain the deceased was in prior to their chosen death doen't trump out the pain the survivors are left to live the rest of their lives in.I definately realise this. It certainly didn't make my pain any better, and I live with the pain of her death every day. But if she was in intollerable physical pain I'd feel the same way - whether they were choosing to actively end their life or to stop treatment that would lead to inevitable death.
>
> we all hurt. some manage. some don't.
>
> we all end up hurt from some aspect of it. and we're not trying to discuss better, worse, richer poorer etc....just that ppl left after suicide have a hard road to travel and often revisiting the "it is okayish because they freed themself from so much pain" refrain can salt their wounds.Yes, it's a very hard road to travel. I'm not denying anyone the pain that they feel, and I'm not saying that people shouldn't feel angry etc. I was just stating how *I* feel about it, not how anyone else should feel.
> folks on this board are adults for most part and can take care of themselves...suicide is obviously a triggery subject for many.....consider this our contribution on the matter.
>I certainly wasn't intending to get in to heated discussion about it. I was just trying to express how I've rationalised it in my own mind (taking several years) to enable me to continue life with some level of functioning. I realise that everyone has their own way of coping with this, and as you say, it's a very triggery subject and close to many people's hearts.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:29:23
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:00:23
zenhussy,
Thank you - I also have to say, that if "suicide is OK because the person is no longer in pain" - than why has no poster offered another poster support so that they can feel better about killing themselves?
Instead of saying to a suicidal poster what gets said now, which is - "hold on, seek help, don't hurt yourself" -
can we realistically say to a suicidal poster, by extension of this logic, is "it's OK to kill yourself, do it, you're in too much pain."
I have never heard that yet on babble.
& I hope to never hear that ever.
I understand a persons view of suicide as a necessary and unfortunate action someone feels they need to take.
But I do not understand saying that it's OK.
Huge difference.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:27
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » zenhussy, posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 10:25:05
I appreciate your contribution, as one who has seen both sides of the fence, -
the stopping treatment metaphor for an illness means biology will take its natural course and death will ensue - there is nothing one needs to do.
Suicide is an event though, the person must take action to end their life. It doesn't happen passively.
That is a big difference.
& yes, this subject is close to my heart and yours as well - I took no offense. Please be well and take care.
Posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:57
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:27
Posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:37:24
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » zenhussy, posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 10:25:05
>>>I was just trying to express how I've rationalised it in my own mind (taking several years) to enable me to continue life with some level of functioning. <<<
thank you for the follow up....sorry if our post was off mark. morning w/o coffee and the brain ain't started yet. no excuse.
appreciate the clarification.
am deeply sorry for your loss....am sorry for everyones losses here on this board.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 11:05:39
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by one woman cine on February 8, 2007, at 10:36:27
>
> the stopping treatment metaphor for an illness means biology will take its natural course and death will ensue - there is nothing one needs to do.
>
> Suicide is an event though, the person must take action to end their life. It doesn't happen passively.
>
> That is a big difference.Yes, I can see the difference. Although in my post I mentioned that to me someone actively taking their own life due to pysical or psychological pain are similar to me, as well as them choosing to stop treatment for an illness.
> & yes, this subject is close to my heart and yours as well - I took no offense. Please be well and take care.I didn't take any offense at all, it think it's good to have discussion.
In response to your other post, I think the reason why I'd say to 'get help, hold on' etc is that for me to think suicide is ok for a person to choose, they'd have to make the decision to do it inspite of all the help and support offered. I know that isn't the same as everyone who posts supportive messages though.
I have to go for today, but it's nice to see everyone's opinions on such a sensitive topic.
Posted by cubic_me on February 8, 2007, at 11:07:39
In reply to Re: Selfish or pain is pain is pain ***trigger*** » cubic_me, posted by zenhussy on February 8, 2007, at 10:37:24
> >>>I was just trying to express how I've rationalised it in my own mind (taking several years) to enable me to continue life with some level of functioning. <<<
>
> thank you for the follow up....sorry if our post was off mark. morning w/o coffee and the brain ain't started yet. no excuse.
>
> appreciate the clarification.
>No, not off the mark, just another viewpoint I think. I'm always open to other ideas on a subject.
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