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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by annierose on November 29, 2005, at 15:39:14
In reply to Re: D*mn » Dinah, posted by Racer on November 29, 2005, at 14:55:15
... because she does such an excellent job with writing and words and well, you see, I don't ...
But Dinah loves T1. She is committed to a working theraputic relationship with him. And they are trying to work out all this Katrina fall-out. Things are working out with him, but she is used to seeing her T more than once a week. And that is a difficult adjustment. It's a different feel to the therapy. I know. The connection with more frequent therapy sessions is completely different than once a week.
But Dinah can and will tell you what she is thinking/feeling herself. Sorry Dinah for jumping in ... hope I didn't offend.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 15:40:28
In reply to Re: D*mn » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 14:06:45
Okay. So I haven't been following the psych board for a while. I haven't read anything about T3 since... Well... Since the first time you went to see her.
But when you were posting about that I thought 'oh, she sounds good'.
Irreverant.
I think that is the word for it. It can be great because it can defuse the situation sometimes. It can be great when mixed with humour. But the danger in it... Well...
> It makes me want to hurt myself.
Hmm.
> It makes me want to hide everything about myself, not just the things that I decided to hide after T2.Yeah. I understand. Sometimes when we need kindness and acceptance and a gentle touch... Irreverance... Well I used to get the urge to punch my t in the face... And that was the t that I really liked too.
> Apparently all of me is unacceptable if I reveal it. So I just won't reveal it.
(((Dinah)))
I really do think that falls is right...
TELL HER.What I managed to figure out with my t...
Was a code.
For me it was 'back off'.
I'd just have to say it really gentle like...
And that meant
F*CKING BACK OFF LADY!
Useful for when she was too irreverant
Or was pushing me too hard
Or if I could feel my emotions escalating too much
Or whatever.Its strange...
But she was able to switch into 'caring mode' really very well.
And that would defuse the situation
And we could gently talk about why I was feeling upset.
But yeah, I think it is important.I guess from her pov...
She might not realise how very strongly you are reacting to her style...
She might pick up that you are a little bit upset or something...
But I really don't think...
She would continue with that if she knew.Can you try and sort this out??
Because irreverance can be a really very great theraputic strategy. And some people can pull it off better than others. And... I imagine that you could find it really very terrific IF USED APPROPRIATELY. But... It will take a little bit of time (and discussion) before she learns how to read you a bit more. How you are likely to respond. How far she can push you.
But it is about... Trying to propell you foward, I think. To genuinely help toughen you up from those kinds of comments / criticisms. Useful IRL because some people will say those kinds of things...
But too much... And somebody is going to get hurt, yup.
Posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 16:37:21
In reply to Re: D*mn » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 14:06:45
One thing that I've learned from my therapist is this: When he reacts to something I determine what I think that he is thinking. But when I verify that with him, I often (not always, but often) find that what I think he is thinking isn't what he's thinking at all. I never knew this before because I always assumed that I was right, so I never checked with the other person to be SURE I was right. But I did with him - and guess what? I wasn't right. He didn't feel the way I thought he did.
So you may think that she finds you unacceptable. But maybe she doesn't. You won't know unless you ask her about it.
I know that shame feeling. And it truly is awful. Maybe the worst. But that shame is coming from you - from within you. If you run away from her, you will still carry the shame with you - hoping that you won't bump into it again. But if you TALK about it with her, then she can help you to understand the shame and decide whether it is reasonable or not.
Maybe she doesn't understand you. Maybe you don't understand her. Maybe you both don't understand each other. That's OK. This is when it is time to work towards understanding. You call it fighting to relationship. It can be excruciating, but it also can make all the difference in the world.
You need to face this, Dinah. You CAN face this. We will help.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 16:52:29
In reply to Re: D*mn » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 16:37:21
> I know that shame feeling. And it truly is awful. Maybe the worst. But that shame is coming from you - from within you. If you run away from her, you will still carry the shame with you - hoping that you won't bump into it again.
YES
YES
YES:-)
Well said!
Sometimes the painful feelings...
Show us that we are on the brink of making...
Some very real progress / gains.Please stick with it Dinah.
You really are a wonderful human being.
I hope you come to see that one day.
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:15:45
In reply to Re: D*mn » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 16:37:21
Well, I took it quite well when she said that I was selfish and immature sexually. There were several other things that I took quite well.
I was a bit disconcerted when she insisted that my forgetting sleeps were child-like pouting, sulking, temper tantrums. I'm pretty sure they're escape, not temper tantrums.
But I don't see any reason at all for perjorative descriptions of my braids.
I'm not interpreting much, Falls. She comes right out and says what I'm objecting to. I'm not adding anything on top of it.
Perhaps she sees herself as direct. Maybe her approach is to shock a client into change. It's not a particularly unusual technique, and I admired her grasp of it.
But it's not a technique I particularly care for. And the amazing thing is not that I wish to walk away now, but that I didn't walk away sooner.
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:21:06
In reply to Re: D*mn » Dinah, posted by Racer on November 29, 2005, at 14:55:15
To be accurate, these probably are at least T5 and 6 if you count all the adjunctive therapists I've had over the years. Biofeedback guy. EMDR lady. The psychologist who did the testing. Plus a handful of pdocs. And of course my childhood therapist.
So far I've liked only one of them (T1), and left in a snit from two (not counting this one).
T1 and I might be going through a rough patch, and he may end up hurting me a whole lot. But at least he isn't going to end up hurting me *this* way. Of course, I couldn't leave even if I wanted to. But if I ever do leave, or he leaves, it will be to nothing, not another therapist.
Who needs the bother.
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:24:56
In reply to Re: Not to speak for Dinah ... » Racer, posted by annierose on November 29, 2005, at 15:39:14
:) I think you write wonderfully, Annierose. Don't sell yourself short.
I think I'm going to ask him if I can drive to see him once a week. I do miss that twice a week intensity, and the call helps some, but it's not the same. My best shot at reestablishing the relationship is to see him more often. It might be hard since he's going on trips so much, but whenever we can, I think I'll try to do it.
I'm missing a fair amount of work in my distress anyway. If I can get back to having helpful therapy, it'd probably actually increase my productivity, even if I do miss a day in driving.
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:28:51
In reply to Re: D*mn » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 15:40:28
I'm not altogether sure she's aiming for irreverance. I think it's more directness, although she uses a light tone.
I'm sure it works wonderfully well with many clients.
But I don't engage with people who don't treat me with the same respect I treat them. I don't fight about it, but I walk away. Yes, there are people who'll offer "constructive criticism" in real life. But I don't have to stay and take it passively IRL, I can walk away. And so can I walk away in therapy.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 29, 2005, at 18:13:36
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
I did hear some good things from you about her initially. But I completely trust what you are saying now: these things sound like personal attacks/and/or criticisms which NOBODY NEEDS. I do hope you will be able to regain a steady twice-a week contact with T1. I don't know, or not, but would it be worthwhile to continue a bit longer with T3, just to make sure whether or not there might be something valuable for you there? (((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 19:02:23
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on November 29, 2005, at 18:13:36
I think it may sound somewhat worse in excerpt. Until today, I didn't really take offense. But each week would get a bit more challenging with a bit less validation, until this week when I did take offense. She's really quite good at it. But she really did say those things, and more.
I have some external reasons not to leave impolitely. So my current plan is to tell her that I'm not in tune with her overarching plan for me (to have me "grow up"), and to ask her if, given that, there is any value in continuing. With any luck, she'll terminate *me*. I need to work a bit on the wording to make it friendly and inquiring, I think.
I like better just cancelling my next appointment and avoiding that conversation. :) But there are reasons that wouldn't be ideal this time.
I'd rather it be nonconfrontative, though.
I'll talk tomorrow to my therapist about the possibility of reducing the length and increasing the frequency of my sessions. I'm a bit anxious about it, because while he keeps saying I can do it, there's also been a reluctance on his part to pin down specifics.
I know I should count myself fortunate. So many are dealing with so much. But having this major disruption in one of the most important relationships in my world is a very big thing to me. Maybe that's a mark of my immaturity and selfishness. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 29, 2005, at 19:13:07
In reply to Re: T3 » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 19:02:23
I don't think it is at all. With all the unexpected and disappointing things that happen in the world, you have found YOUR T. For everything that you can put into writing about him, there are probably thousands of things about your relationship with him that mean the world to you, but can't be put into words. Or only after a bit of time. I'd just go with your instincts, Dinah- I don't think they have ever been wrong!
Posted by Poet on November 29, 2005, at 19:14:39
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
Hi Dinah,
What a bummer. So much for third time does the charm.
I would be instantly back in junior high if I thought my T was making fun of me. Only now grown me says nasty things right back.
Sorry that T3 doesn't sound like a keeper. Maybe number four will do more? Sorry, bad rhyme. My poetry doesn't rhyme.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 20:01:21
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by Poet on November 29, 2005, at 19:14:39
It wasn't making fun of me, exactly. And I guess I had given her an opening by saying that I wore a more conventional hairstyle for work. I wouldn't have minded "eccentric" or "unconventional". Whatever the word was, it was downright insulting.
I think this is one reason I think that if I ever for any strange reason try again (many years from now), I should only try a man. Women tend to intimidate me in person. :( It was great meeting you guys, because I knew you and you knew me already. But I was still insecure enough to send my photo around first so that I didn't see any looks of shock or disgust on anyone's face. :(
Posted by Shortelise on November 29, 2005, at 20:30:52
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
No ideas here, Dinah, just hugs, if that's ok. Lots of them. Very warm and safe, and kind.
ShortE
Posted by fallsfall on November 29, 2005, at 20:35:41
In reply to Re: D*mn » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:15:45
I have been impressed that you didn't walk away sooner.
All I can say is that when I first started with my current therapist, he said "You are a professional patient. You want to be depressed." I was livid. Madder than you are. I denied it and argued for weeks. Then he sort of let it lie for a while. But he came back to it every once in a while. And I hated it everytime he mentioned it. Eventually, though, it turned out that he was right. It took me a long, long time to come to that realization, and it was painful every step of the way. But I'm really glad that I kept walking and fighting with him. Because it has made all the difference.
I'm certainly not saying that it is fun. And I was pretty angry an awful lot. But I knew that he cared, and I knew that he believed in his ability to help me. And so I stuck it out (that plus the fact that it takes a major earthquake to make me change direction once I get started with someone).
I don't know if the same thing would happen to you if you stuck with her. But I don't know that it wouldn't.
And I wish greater peace and happiness for you.
Posted by Poet on November 29, 2005, at 21:08:43
In reply to Re: T3 » Poet, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 20:01:21
Hi Dinah,
I never saw your photo and I didn't run screaming away from fright when I first saw you.
If you are more comfortable with male Ts, then if and when you are ready to try therapy again, I think you should go to a male one.
Even if you had given T3 an opening, she shouldn't have made a feeble attempt at some sort of humor. My T can get away with saying sarcastic things to me, because I am sarcastic with her. T3 doesn't know you and frankly doesn't sound like she deserves to. Which is too bad as I think you're okay. Hair and all.
Poet
Posted by gardenergirl on November 29, 2005, at 21:56:57
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by Poet on November 29, 2005, at 21:08:43
Dinah,
I'm so sorry you came out of that session feeling shamed. That must be just awful. And certainly not at all helpful. I hope your plan to increase frequency with T1 works out, and that it's not too much of a burden.That said, and perhaps from my own perspective as someone in training, I think you should tell her how her style comes off to you and what you felt when you left today. I know it's not your job to set her straight, but I think she could really learn from your feedback. You've been in therapy for a long time, and you know what does and does not work for you. That is something to be respected. Heck, if I had a client like you, you can bet I'd be asking about what worked and didn't. Why re-invent the wheel?
Did she ever consult with T1? I don't remember if you signed a release for that.
Dinah, darling. I never saw you in braids, but I bet they were very cute. And like Poet, I was not at all shocked or otherwise turned off by your appearance. I think you're lovely, and I was serious when I said I thought I saw a tiny resemblance between us. You have sparkling eyes and a great smile. Not to mention your heart. :)
Wishing you a good solution...
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:18:19
In reply to Re: D*mn » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 17:15:45
> Well, I took it quite well when she said that I was selfish and immature sexually. There were several other things that I took quite well.
>
> I was a bit disconcerted when she insisted that my forgetting sleeps were child-like pouting, sulking, temper tantrums. I'm pretty sure they're escape, not temper tantrums.
>
> But I don't see any reason at all for perjorative descriptions of my braids.
>
> I'm not interpreting much, Falls. She comes right out and says what I'm objecting to. I'm not adding anything on top of it.
>
> Perhaps she sees herself as direct. Maybe her approach is to shock a client into change. It's not a particularly unusual technique, and I admired her grasp of it.
>
> But it's not a technique I particularly care for. And the amazing thing is not that I wish to walk away now, but that I didn't walk away sooner.
well now, i didn't know about any of that...yeah. i'd be running too...
i don't see those as irrevenant
i see those as disrespect:-(
grr
Posted by orchid on November 29, 2005, at 22:36:24
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
Initially when I met my T2, I didn't like her.
Not for quite some time.But guess what, after some time, she started to rock.
Maybe you need to give your T3 time.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2005, at 22:47:21
In reply to Re: T3 » Dinah, posted by orchid on November 29, 2005, at 22:36:24
maybe tell her?
tell her some of the things she has said that hurt you.
because...
i really don't imagine that she intended to hurt you.
Posted by sleepygirl on November 29, 2005, at 23:34:13
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
Say "HIT THE ROAD NASTY T!!"
Sorry, I'm overidentifying perhaps with my experience with less than gentle mental health professionals....
I'm all for exploring what your reactions might be with people who are not so pleasant for you, but I hope it won't be an ongoing theme. I hope you bring it up with her, see how it goes. I don't know the quality of interaction you're talking about here, but respect and acceptance has got to be a prerequisite. I hope, whatever you decide, that it goes well.
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 1:23:32
In reply to Re: T3 » Poet, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 20:01:21
I think it is interesting that this happened today after you opened the discussion with your therapist about body imagine. I think it would be helpful to talk to T3 about it - and I agree that she needs feedback about her style.
I wish things were going smoother for you.
Posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
In reply to Re: T3 » Poet, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 20:01:21
I didn't mean to say anything too negative about her. She's actually got really good technique, and comes across as interested and therapeutically caring. Not terribly judgemental.
She does say things but none of them are said terribly offensively. Otherwise I'd have never lasted this long with her.
I think it's not an unusual style, and it worked well for Falls, and probably many other people. But I'm just not the sort of person who deals well with that style. I'd never make it with Falls therapist either, and that's ok. Different people respond differently. I'm not challenged by challenging statements.
I don't fight them. I just decide I don't want that in my life, and walk. If anyone's judgemental, it's likely me, because I just think people shouldn't talk that way to each other - not even therapists. Especially if there's no caring and investment already built up.
I'm sure she's a fine therapist and provokes change in many of her clients. She may be more effective than therapists who don't say provocative things. There's just a lack of good fit between her style and my response.
I'm a good therapy client. If she just raised the issues, without adding the provocative statements, or if she said the same thing but in a positive way. For example, instead of saying "you are immature and selfish in your sexuality" she could say "I'm sure you want to be as giving and generous as you can be toward your husband" it would have suited my style better.
But then again, she probably sees me as someone who's had ten years of therapy and has a more than thorough understanding of my issues, yet still has not made changes she would like to see. And she probably thinks that discussing things won't propel me to change, and that I need a bit more impetus. She hasn't, of course, seen the changes I have made, just the ones I haven't.
Maybe she's right. But I know that this way won't work with me. Apart from all else, I'm wickedly stubborn, and not inclined to reward behavior that I find less than desirable. ;) Also, these are changes that of course I have considered. I haven't reached my age, after ten years of therapy, without considering these changes. Simply stinging me into action won't make me choose these particular options.
So, I think she's a very good and very skilled therapist with a style that just does not mesh well with my own. Yet time and time again, I've heard of similar therapist who get excellent results. I am absolutely horrified at what they say, yet their clients would say positive things about them.
Maybe it's the difference between fight and flight. I may be argumentative, but there's a difference between that and a real fight response. I am only argumentative in certain circumstances. I choose my battles and I choose who I wish to engage. Otherwise I might draw a line in the sand, but then I walk away. Or run away, depending on circumstances.
And I think I refuse to see that as inherently worse than a tendency to stay and fight. Is a deer bad and a lion good? We all have natural inborn tendencies that are neither good nor bad, though some of them are certainly more prized by society. Fight may be more valued in our society, but that doesn't make it inherently more valuable.
Posted by cricket on November 30, 2005, at 11:40:36
In reply to T3, posted by Dinah on November 29, 2005, at 12:27:49
I'm so sorry Dinah. I haven't talked to you in a while or really been on the psychology board. I wish things were finally going better.
Therapy fit - Hmmm - that's an interesting Babble topic.
If I had any insight at all, I'd start a thread.
I hope it all works out. It does sound best if you can get to see T1 more frequently.
Posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 11:59:44
In reply to Poster's remorse again, posted by Dinah on November 30, 2005, at 9:49:10
> And I think I refuse to see that as inherently worse than a tendency to stay and fight. Is a deer bad and a lion good? We all have natural inborn tendencies that are neither good nor bad, though some of them are certainly more prized by society. Fight may be more valued in our society, but that doesn't make it inherently more valuable.I think this was quite a thoughtful post. I feel like you have a real appreciation for the quality of technique even if you don't feel like it's for you. I was sort of kidding in my last post to you about telling her to hit the road. I was being simplistic, but you really hit me with what you said above about the "fight" feeling more valued.
I guess I was just reacting to the "C'mon, don't you get it!!, c'mon, move, move, move!!" quality I kind of feel in mental health a lot. I certainly have nothing against progess, but it feels sorta like that sometimes. I wish I could describe it more eloquently. I just know that I couldn't have gotten to where I am without some serious tender loving care - and it has been some tremendous progress that maybe doesn't translate to a graph or pie chart if you know what I mean.
I don't mean to devalue what T3 does. I'm sure it's quite effective for some. I got my own stuff surrounding this issue in a major way. It's hard to know which way to go. You'll tell us what happens right?
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