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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 15:11:10
Yesterday I had a strange dream - that I am becoming a lunatic. That I have lost control and I don't understand what I am doing and saying. There are a bunch of my relatives in my house, and I am acting like crazy - throwing things, not understanding what I am saying etc.
And the only thing that I remember is that I wrote to my ex T and that he didn't write. I ask my father why my ex T didn't write. And he says something like that he went and met him, and my ex T told him that I was not worth writing to anymore.. and that he is moving away.
And then I have a dream about me beign in an hospital and my ex T comes there in a car, but refuses to see me or talk to me.. and people are taking me to the psych ward.
It was really frightening
Posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 15:49:45
In reply to My Dream, posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 15:11:10
> Yesterday I had a strange dream - that I am becoming a lunatic. That I have lost control and I don't understand what I am doing and saying. There are a bunch of my relatives in my house, and I am acting like crazy - throwing things, not understanding what I am saying etc.
>
> And the only thing that I remember is that I wrote to my ex T and that he didn't write. I ask my father why my ex T didn't write. And he says something like that he went and met him, and my ex T told him that I was not worth writing to anymore.. and that he is moving away.
>
> And then I have a dream about me beign in an hospital and my ex T comes there in a car, but refuses to see me or talk to me.. and people are taking me to the psych ward.
>
> It was really frighteningThat does sound frightening.
It sounds as if you are afraid that you might experience life very differently from your relatives. I think this is a legitimate fear, since you will be returning to India after a time in the US, and people will think you have changed a lot. And maybe you are afraid that living with your husband’s parents will drive you crazy!
When you ask your father about your ex-T, it sounds as if your unconscious is processing your transference. And your father’s message that your ex-T thinks you are not worth writing to any more seems to touch the depth of your feelings of rejection. I think it’s interesting that the message comes through your father, rather than directly from your ex-T. It suggests to me that the pain of rejection by your ex-T may be reflected in the fear (and perhaps reality) of rejection by your father. (I have a theory that csa involves profound feelings of rejection. It is a rejection of your basic humanity.)
The hospital seems to represent a place where you can get well, but your ex-T refuses to see you (and by implication, he refuses to treat you). I think this suggests that you are afraid that you can’t get well without him.
There is a sense of distance from your ex-T all through this dream, and that is probably significant. You have been doing some hard work on moving away from your desire for his support, but it must be painful to feel you are breaking away from him. You might feel as if you would rather hang on to him.
If I remember correctly your current T is CBT, isn’t she? Nevertheless, you might want to mention this dream to her; she might have some interesting things to say about it.
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 17:02:49
In reply to My Dream, posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 15:11:10
Could it be related to the anxiety over sending him the last email you sent him? I know you weren't expecting a reply. But perhaps when you didn't receive one, it made you wonder what you would have to do to get a response from him. And the dream answer was that there was no way to get a response from him.
I really think the motives you're attributing to your therapist, about you not being worth writing to, probably aren't his motives at all. Since he's not a therapist anymore, his motives are probably to do what he thought was in your best interests. Stepping aside so that you could see someone who currently is a therapist. Perhaps there are even legal issues involved in his continuing to correspond with an ex-patient when he is no longer a therapist.
I really wish he had provided a bit of conversation around the termination so that you aren't left to fill in the blanks on your own. I know when I fill in the blanks, I usually fill in the worst possible answers.
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 17:13:27
In reply to Re: My Dream (***possible trigger***) » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 15:49:45
Thanks for your interpretation..You are pretty much right on mark with most of it.. Maybe the first part I think I didn't really attribute it to living with my in laws. I think maybe it was a genuine concern of my own mental health.
I think you are right about it coming from my father having some signifance on the relation between the two in my mind. What is your theory about csa triggering profound feelings of rejection? I also have that. But I never know how to correct it.
I think I will mention to my current T about this dream. And see what she says.
Thanks Tamar.
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 17:15:55
In reply to Re: My Dream » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 17:02:49
If they are not his motives, shouldn't he have bothered explaining more to me? Especially after me telling him how horrible and cruel I felt? And that I am torturing myself about it every day?
He doens't have to write a therapeutic response - but could write one line right? Like "I am sorry you are still feeling very bad - but unfortunately as you know I cannot really go in depth of therapy anymore since I am not a therapist. But I want you to know my intention is not to abandon you".. Something along these lines would be perfect right? Why doesn't he even bother that much?
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 17:21:53
In reply to Re: My Dream » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 17:15:55
Well, I think I would. And I think he should. But perhaps his not doing it is more a matter of him not knowing what the right thing to do would be, or what would be in your best interests. From what you've said, there wouldn't be appropriate supervision in India. Nor would he really have access to it if he's no longer a therapist. It might not be a matter of him not caring, or feeling badly toward you. He just might not know what to do.
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 17:26:03
In reply to Re: My Dream » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on June 28, 2005, at 17:21:53
He doens't know what to do? How difficult is to come up with a 3 line email? One which doesn't get into therapy and at the same time doesn't hurt? REally how difficult is for someone who is a psychiatrist to write a 2 liner like I wrote?? That would have eased my pain so very much. What value is there in continuing to let the patient suffer, knowing that she is hurting immensely for the last 5 months, and still not choosing to reply even once ?? I really don't think any reasonable person would do that.
Posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 18:08:38
In reply to Re: My Dream (***possible trigger***) » Tamar, posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 17:13:27
> Thanks for your interpretation..You are pretty much right on mark with most of it.. Maybe the first part I think I didn't really attribute it to living with my in laws. I think maybe it was a genuine concern of my own mental health.
That makes sense.
> I think you are right about it coming from my father having some signifance on the relation between the two in my mind. What is your theory about csa triggering profound feelings of rejection? I also have that. But I never know how to correct it.
I had the idea when I realised a certain pattern in my life. I noticed that when I really want sex and my partner isn’t in the mood I find it very difficult to handle the rejection. Most of the time it’s not really a problem, but sometimes I feel so awful at being turned down that it’s obviously completely out of proportion to the situation.
When I thought about the feelings I had, I realised that it was the same combination of feelings I had when I was raped. There was physiological arousal mixed with fear and anger and self-loathing and disgust at myself. I was a bit surprised that a casual refusal of sex should lead to such strong feelings. In fact, I always felt so bad I ended up starting an argument, which would then become a massive screaming-match until eventually we made up. And then, having made up, we’d have sex! This happened often enough over the years for me to realise there was something strange going on. I wasn’t deliberately being manipulative, but once I realised what was happening I decided I needed to try to find other ways of responding to that kind of rejection.
I think there’s a profound rejection involved in any kind of sexual assault. In my view, sex is supposed to be about mutual engagement in pleasure, and mutual enjoyment of physical arousal. But in a sexual assault (rape, or csa, or whatever), the victim’s role as a partner is rejected by the abuser. In the case of csa, the victim’s role as daughter, or child, is rejected as well. The victim is dehumanised by the abuser, and becomes an object of the abuser’s perverted view of sexuality and power. It isn’t possible for the victim to assert her own identity, because she’s being rejected as a person. I think that’s part of the reason why in some cases people feel as if they’re watching the assault happen to someone else. It’s very difficult to maintain a sense of who you are when your identity as a person is being rejected by someone who can overpower you.
So I find any rejection, and particularly sexual rejection, a big trigger. Even the fear of rejection by friends carries a sense of losing my identity. And because of my history of sexual assault, that fear is magnified until it becomes out of proportion to the situation.
I don’t think there’s a quick fix for it. Noticing what is happening and naming your feelings is one step. For me there was also something about recognising that my body is not my enemy, and accepting its suffering. Simply being able to recognise my emotional pain was helpful too. I tend to write everything down, and so I wrote pages and pages about my feelings about the past and how they seem to connect with the present. Every now and then I read what I’ve written and I ask myself whether I still feel the same way. When I go back and read my diary from the time I was in therapy, I realise I am feeling much better about it all. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than it used to be.
I hope that’s of some help. I guess you have to figure out what might work for you.
Tamar
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 18:20:38
In reply to Re: My Dream (***possible trigger***) » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 18:08:38
You should really really be a T.. I don't think I have ever received that kind of perception from anybody before .. not even in books that I read.
You have a gift for understanding Tamar. You don't really know how much you understand.
That was an awesome insight.. I have always felt my identity rejected.. I never understood what really caused it.. Only now I understood.. I have to think more about it, because somehow I am going blank now.. but will write later.
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 18:58:53
In reply to Re: My Dream (***possible trigger***) » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 18:08:38
I have had that same feeling with my husband in the first couple of years.. One year, he totally abstained from sex - because he was following a cult and I got so very mad at him.. I threatened him, cried, fought etc etc.. I didn't just wait.. and it was not that I even wanted to have sex. I was perfectly fine with really never having sex in my life time if needed be. But just that rejection was so overwhelmingly difficult to cope up with.
And it is not just sex, I think when someone rejects me, I find it so very intolerably difficult.. And more so when they reject me as a women. I even went to the extent of rejecting myself as a woman first in fear of someone else rejecting me.. I wouldn't dress well, I wouldn't wear makeup, I would choose my clothes so loose so my figure wouldn't show up. I would not talk in an adult feminine way or sexually or flirtily.. I would always be childish or extremely blunt or very logical all the time, or talk about bigger issues rather than romantically.. Retrospectively, all I wanted to do was to talk in a sweet feminine way, as a girl talking to a guy, rather than like a professional or like a child.. But I never used to allow myself to do that.
And I can understand your thing about arousal combined with fear and anger and disgust. I had the same feeling for many years - if I liked someone I would be so disgusted with myself.. and for some time I purposefully chose a jerk to talk to - becuase I thought I was too ugly for good guys.
Also what you have said about dehumanising when someone abuses you is also very valid. When you are abused, either as an adult sexually or in my case as a child, your identity gets totally confused. But I think adult sexual abuse is little different from child - because when you are raped as an adult, I think your sexual identity is threatened. but when you are abused as a child - both personal and sexual identity is threatened.
For me as a child - I was really not allowed to emerge as an individual.. my identity was always merged with my dad's. I would like everything he likes, I would not like anythign he doesn't like, I would dress the way he wants me to, I would do the things he asked me to, I would even give up playing with kids my age to play with him, I never had a sleep over with even my cousins.. My father always used to tell me he couldn't sleep without me.. and he used to hug me tightly and several days I used to sleep on top of him for many many years.. And even though he pretended to give me freedom, he never really did.. He wanted me to be his mirror, his own self, his partner, his clone. So I never really have good self identity - more so no sexual identity.. And since it is so fragile, any rejection from anyone seems impossible to take.
Thanks a lot for your input... IT really helped.
> I had the idea when I realised a certain pattern in my life. I noticed that when I really want sex and my partner isn’t in the mood I find it very difficult to handle the rejection. Most of the time it’s not really a problem, but sometimes I feel so awful at being turned down that it’s obviously completely out of proportion to the situation.
>
> When I thought about the feelings I had, I realised that it was the same combination of feelings I had when I was raped. There was physiological arousal mixed with fear and anger and self-loathing and disgust at myself. I was a bit surprised that a casual refusal of sex should lead to such strong feelings. In fact, I always felt so bad I ended up starting an argument, which would then become a massive screaming-match until eventually we made up. And then, having made up, we’d have sex! This happened often enough over the years for me to realise there was something strange going on. I wasn’t deliberately being manipulative, but once I realised what was happening I decided I needed to try to find other ways of responding to that kind of rejection.
>
> I think there’s a profound rejection involved in any kind of sexual assault. In my view, sex is supposed to be about mutual engagement in pleasure, and mutual enjoyment of physical arousal. But in a sexual assault (rape, or csa, or whatever), the victim’s role as a partner is rejected by the abuser. In the case of csa, the victim’s role as daughter, or child, is rejected as well. The victim is dehumanised by the abuser, and becomes an object of the abuser’s perverted view of sexuality and power. It isn’t possible for the victim to assert her own identity, because she’s being rejected as a person. I think that’s part of the reason why in some cases people feel as if they’re watching the assault happen to someone else. It’s very difficult to maintain a sense of who you are when your identity as a person is being rejected by someone who can overpower you.
>
> So I find any rejection, and particularly sexual rejection, a big trigger. Even the fear of rejection by friends carries a sense of losing my identity. And because of my history of sexual assault, that fear is magnified until it becomes out of proportion to the situation.
>
> I don’t think there’s a quick fix for it. Noticing what is happening and naming your feelings is one step. For me there was also something about recognising that my body is not my enemy, and accepting its suffering. Simply being able to recognise my emotional pain was helpful too. I tend to write everything down, and so I wrote pages and pages about my feelings about the past and how they seem to connect with the present. Every now and then I read what I’ve written and I ask myself whether I still feel the same way. When I go back and read my diary from the time I was in therapy, I realise I am feeling much better about it all. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than it used to be.
>
> I hope that’s of some help. I guess you have to figure out what might work for you.
>
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 19:11:33
In reply to Re: My Dream (***possible trigger***) » pinkeye, posted by Tamar on June 28, 2005, at 18:08:38
Also I read something in that book - Courage to Heal.. It said that if you ate a sandwich, your stomach will digest it. You cannot consciously prevent your stomach from digesting it.
Similary, when you are touched sexually and even forced an intercourse, your body will responsd. You cannot prevent it from responding. I liked that sandwich example - thought it might help you come to peace with the fact that your body responded.
Posted by Jazzed on June 29, 2005, at 6:38:02
In reply to My Dream, posted by pinkeye on June 28, 2005, at 15:11:10
Hi Pinkeye,
I'm no good at this dream analysis, I don't know anything about it, but it does seem to me that you're feeling out of control of your own life, and it's partially caused by your in-laws and husband. Things they want from you? Going back to India, wanting you to have a grandchild/child for them. And your T ignoring you makes you feel unworthy and unloved, and like he's driven you crazy by ignoring you.
I don't know, its just my initial reaction.
Jazzy
Posted by pinkeye on June 29, 2005, at 14:02:41
In reply to Re: My Dream » pinkeye, posted by Jazzed on June 29, 2005, at 6:38:02
Thanks :-)
I think it is not even about going back to India so much as what happened with my ex T. Maybe I am over reacting, but somehow it triggered somethign too close to home.. and I am yet to recover..
This is the end of the thread.
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