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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by cricket on June 16, 2005, at 15:54:17
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
That does sound terrible. I am so glad you have your husband.
I certainly know the feeling of wanting to walk out on a session.
Please take care of yourself.
Posted by pinkeye on June 16, 2005, at 17:01:59
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
I am so sorry shortE. You are perfectly right in what you are feeling... therapists seem to mess up termination big time. But maybe it is just too difficult for anyone to handle.
I wish sometimes that I never entered into therapy with a male therapist. But too late.
I know it will ease with time. I hope it does for you.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 17:36:13
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Good grief. He *is* handling this not as sensitively as we might wish.
Maybe he's hoping that if you get angry enough with him, termination won't hurt as much? I think his theory is flawed, if so.
May we all line up and give him a swift cyberkick in his fleshy sit upon area?
Or if we could all comment on how we think termination ought to be, and you can forward the comments anonymously?
Posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 17:54:28
In reply to Re: T today - hurt and angry - may trigger » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 17:36:13
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 17:56:05
In reply to Yes, How DO you think termination ought to be? (nm), posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 17:54:28
I think Pegasus said it so well, on a previous thread of yours.
I'll try to look it up. I'd like to keep it anyway. But it might take a while because I'm just coming out of a migraine.
Posted by Aphrodite on June 16, 2005, at 19:25:40
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
First of all, kudos to your husband. He sounds like a gem.
Second of all, ouch!
I have no idea what termination should look like, but I would suspect it should look different for each person. A T that has been as good for you as he as ought to know not to follow some predescribed protocol he learned in grad school.
I can say what it shouldn't look like -- we shouldn't see a good person reduced to tears, torn from her secure base, someone so in need of compassionate understanding in her grief and loss that when met with misunderstanding has no choice but to run away from the cause of the pain. No, it shouldn't look like that at all.
I'm just so, so sorry. It's probably too soon to ask, but what do you think you're going to do?
Take good care of yourself -- lean on that sweet husband of yours . . . and us too.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:44:37
In reply to Yes, How DO you think termination ought to be? (nm), posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 17:54:28
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050521/msgs/503623.html
Posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 20:13:41
In reply to Re: Yes, How DO you think termination ought to be? » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 19:44:37
I had also saved this. I just am not thinking clearly.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2005, at 20:17:08
In reply to thanks » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 20:13:41
((((ShortE))))
Posted by littleone on June 16, 2005, at 21:44:18
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
> I am such a loser.
Definately NOT! You are such a sweet person. And I'm guessing that most terminations are very hard to get through. I would tend to think that if you sailed through termination, it would indicate that things aren't as they should be.
And please remember that no matter what he (or anyone) says, it does not reflect on who you are as a person. If anything, what people say says more about them than you (ie their own anger, their own issues, their own hurt, etc)
> It felt like there wasnothing I could say, so - fiveminutes into the session - I stood and said I didn't want to talk to him anymore at all, and I left, saying audibly as I walked by the receptionist "he's a nasty little man, a nasty little man." That was very mean, but he FEELS like a nasty little man to me right at the moment.
I know that this may not match your feelings, but I am so proud of you. For standing up for yourself. For not tolerating that from him. I sincerely hope that by walking out for the first time ever, he really gets the message that perhaps he could handle this a bit better.
> What did I want? I wanted him to say, you're upset about this I can see. I wanted some kind compassion. Dammit. I feel so hurt.You know I'm struggling with this same sort of thing myself at the moment. I don't know how to help, except to say that it doesn't seem such an unreasonable want. And it does feel hurtful when you don't get it. I hope you find a little on babble.
> He is so wrong in this termination technique. To take away my safe place, my compassionate ally, the place where I felt it was ok to feel as I do - it's wrong to take this away.I must admit, that I just think ouch ouch ouch when you've posted about this. I agree that there must be a gentler way. And I hate the way he's treating you. I've been thinking about your post where you said you sometimes think about minor violence towards your T. And I must admit that at the moment I would love to kick his shins or flick his forehead or maybe just give him a really good poke.
> I feel incurable, like a therapy failure. I have failed. If I were better, if I had succeeded in therapy, I'd be blithely sailing throught this, wouldn't I? I haven't walked out of a therapy session in **three years***.I disagree. If you were blithely sailing through this, it wouldn't be reflective of the strong attachment you've formed with your T. And that's a healthy thing by the way. Plus it is a big loss to grieve. A big part of your life. Both your T and therapy as a whole. Having said that, I don't think it has to be this hard. I mean, he doesn't have to be an *rse about it all, you know.
> I talked with my husband, cried on his shoulder, love him so much.I'm so glad you've got him.
Sorry I was so harsh about your T, it just really gets my goat the way he's treating you.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 16, 2005, at 22:36:51
In reply to Re: T today - hurt and angry - may trigger » Shortelise, posted by littleone on June 16, 2005, at 21:44:18
ShortE,
I'm so sorry you had such a bad session and that you are hurting right now. Termination is really really hard, and of course it would be painful when you've been working with him so long. I absolutely agree with Pegasus, that the process of termination is **talking** about all the feelings termination stirs up. That's why what I learned in grad school is that termination can take a very long time in long term therapies. I was taught you have to give it enough weight and attention, perhaps even more so than the rest of therapy. The goal is for termination to feel "right" and "okay" with both parties.I would hate to think that anyone is being taught to bring out anger as a way to terminate. That may be his own stuff leaking in. It may also be some of your stuff coming out, which is perfectly natural and **supposed** to happen, but for some reason he's not picking it up to work on it with you.
(((((((ShortElise)))))))
Keep talking about it if you can, whether it's hear, to your hubby or someone else you trust to support, or maybe even your T. I'm hoping he's concerned about it after you walked out, and he will be open to hearing how you feel.
gg
Posted by daisym on June 16, 2005, at 23:31:33
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
((((ShortE))))
All I can think of is that your therapist is hurting about all of this too and not handling it well. Maybe that is what I want to think.
I think termination should be either be ripping the band-aid off quick --- your last session is sad and painful but you are left with the rest of your impressions about it being "safe" intact; OR --- you should be moving away slowly, catching up eagerly with each other when you do get-together, sharing how hard it is to miss someone so important in your life and celebrating your successes that you attribute to what you learned from therapy. I think that you should get to take a little piece of your therapist with you each and everytime so that eventually you've built a clone inside yourself that is yours when you need him. And still, you know the "real thing" is out there if your model needs repair.
Mostly, I'm so sorry for your pain. This is one of those times that you need more than the computer screen. I'm glad you have your hubby.
Posted by Jazzed on June 16, 2005, at 23:39:52
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
> I am such a loser.
I'm so sorry that your session left you feeling this way ShortE. It's a good indication that it wasn't handled well at all. We're supposed to leave feeling better, or at least that we've gotten somewhere, accomplished something.
>
I was being a little extreme, that "kid gloves" was how someone very fragile is treated, that it's a far cry from simply not pummelling someone against the wall.He definately could have been a little more thoughtful in his response to you. This seems to lack any tact or regard for your feelings.
>
> It felt like there wasnothing I could say, so - fiveminutes into the session - I stood and said I didn't want to talk to him anymore at all>
> What did I want? I wanted him to say, you're upset about this I can see. I wanted some kind compassion. Dammit. I feel so hurt.Your way of handling it, having him acknowledge your hurt, seems to me to be the better way of handling it, you're right. I'd be so angry, and you have every right to be hurt and angry ShortE.
Can you put down in writing how all of this made you feel, and how it should be? Maybe then he can see how wrong all of this is. You're not a failure, you've just been manhandled so to speak. I hope your husband was able to offer you the comfort that you needed.((((((hugs))))))
Jazzy
Posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 2:00:21
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Your responses mean so much - I appreciate them so much. I hear everything you all say, but am stuck where I am for the time being.
I can't help think that you are looking through my filters, that I am actually all wrong, that he is right, butbecause you only hear my skewed side of things, he seems all wrong.
He didn't telephone me. I only half expected him to. Other times, in the first 3 or 4 years of therapy, when I left, he telephoned.
I think I just have to let him go, have to let this end, even if this end is a bad one. But I want to hurt myself because it feels like the only way to get this hurt out is to hurt myself. I won't, it's too hurtful to those I love, but I want to want to, like hunger.
It's the BPD thing, we always come back to self-destruction. This therapy was a failure. I feel I have failed. I have failed everything. What am I doing? Why do I react this way? Is it an addiction to intensity? Is it withdrawl from an addiction to therapy? Am I being the archtypical BPD? Why? WHy have I not changed? Why am I still here up to here in caca? I am supposed, after 7 years of therapy, to be past this.
ANd he didn't even call, the sh*t.
I'm completely nuts.
ShortE
Posted by Jazzed on June 17, 2005, at 6:25:47
In reply to thanks to you all - another trigger maybe, posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 2:00:21
Hi shortE,
When's your next session? Sounds like you need to get back in there and work through some of this stuff. I don't understand why termination is upon you when you're still struggling with so much. I know it's been 7 years, and that's seems like a long time to you, but some people just need the support of ongoing therapy. Why can't you continue?
As for the SI. Is it because you feel like you're being pushed away, and you want to lash out at the T, but you feel that's unacceptable, so you're taking it out on yourself? Please don't. Go back and tell him how angry you are, he can handle it.
I hope your next session is soon. If not I hope you can call him and tell him you need to come back.
(((hugs)))
Jazzy
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:01:33
In reply to thanks to you all - another trigger maybe, posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 2:00:21
I wish I knew what to say. I'm really sorry this is happening this way.
My suggestion would normally be to call him, schedule another appointment with him, and ask him if this is his usual termination plan, and how it's supposed to be helpful. Probably handing him Pegasus' post as well.
But...
He's not handling any of this the way I would have guessed. So I don't know how he'll respond if you call him.
As I always say, loss s*cks. But this sort of loss s*cks worse than normal.
((((ShortE))))
I think I'd still take the chance. Because it would hurt too much not to, and would only potentially hurt to much to do it. But that's me. And you know him better than I do.
My guess is that he's not going to call. I could be wrong, but calling wouldn't seem to be in line with the rest of what he's doing.
Posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: thanks to you all - another trigger maybe » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:01:33
If it were today, I wouldn't go.
I am supposed to be seeing him less often,so I made appt's a month apart, or as close to that as possible.
You know when you pick up a cat that doesn't want to be picked up, how it squirms and writhes? That's how I feel.
Maybe I am so angry at him because of my own inadequacies.
And I think he doesn't like me. I know that's an old song in the therapy biz, and that many of us struggle with it. He'd say it means I don't like myself.
Sh*t. Double sh*t.
Thanks again for putting up with me, for taking thetime to send your ideas and opinions. It helps so much that you care.
ShortE
Posted by pegasus on June 17, 2005, at 14:15:46
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
I'm so sorry about this whole situation for you. I agree with littleone that I want to give him a swift kick in the shins. And then ask him exactly what his theory about termination is?? Maybe if he has some organizing principle behind his actions that he could explain, it would make it hurt a little less? Or maybe not. He did kind of explain it as a weaning off a while back, didn't he. Well, why can't he see that's a painful, hurtful way to do it?
SE, you said that you thought maybe we all agree that he's doing a bad job of termination because we're seeing it through your filter. But, that's how *you're* seeing it, right? So, as far as you're concerned, this is a bad termination. And whatever his intentions are, the fact that the termination is going so badly for you should be relevant to him. Am I making sense? I just think it sounds like he might be sticking to some theory and missing the reality of what it's doing.
I really hope things start to get better for you around this, some way or another. I just hurt for you whenever I read the latest developments about this termination.
(((Shortelise)))
pegasus
Posted by daisym on June 17, 2005, at 15:07:29
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
I don't understand why this would be good for folks with "BPD" -- why do you think this? Is there any evidence that says this is the best way?
I'm sorry, I just don't understand. It doesn't matter if it is only through your filter that we see things, I can HEAR your pain!!! And we don't want our friends in pain. I'm searching for a way to see this as something that you must endure because it is good for you. I would have said that about termination overall. But there MUST be a gentler way, mustn't there??
It is raining here. I wish I could have you over for tea (I typed tear) and warm toast. We could swing together and not even need to talk. I could use the company today.
Posted by Tamar on June 17, 2005, at 17:36:54
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Oh ShortE, what a rough experience.
I think you are really at the beginning of the termination process and it will take quite some time. I don't think he should pull away all at once.
I also wonder if you're going into session expecting to feel unsupported and then find it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I'm wrong...
I think it's also really hard to have that experience and then find you need to go five weeks until your next appointment. I wish you could see him sooner and talk about how the process of termination is feeling to you. It might be hard for him to guage exactly how you're feeling about it.
I really think termination should be about finding ways to walk away from your safe place of your own free will, and maybe learn to find safe places outside therapy. If it feels as if he's snatching the safety away from you, I think there's something wrong, and it's not you!
And you really are NOT a loser!
(((((ShortE)))))
I'm also glad to hear your husband is being such a star.
Tamar
Posted by Aphrodite on June 17, 2005, at 18:05:44
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
Don't try to analyze why you're having the feelings of anger toward him that you do. For now, just have them and let them out.
I'm sorry. Does 5 weeks seem like forever to you, or are you grateful for the time to get some distance from the situation?
And don't turn your diagnosis against yourself because you are more than a label. No label fits anyone completely and thoroughly. I hate to see you identifying with an illness and then feeling that is a reason for the less than optimum skill he is providing in this termination process.
If you feel the need to take some of the responsibility, at least make it a 50/50 split.
I am so, so sorry.
Posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Dear xxx,I guess your learning, your theories, your knowledge of me, and other factors I can’t imagine have contributed to forming the termination method you are using with me. I believe you’re doing what you think is best for me.
It’s just not working for me. That I came in saying I feel I have to handle you with kid gloves – you heard me loud and clear. You knew I was feeling awful and you knew I was saying so. That you ask me to speak your language, well, sometimes I can and sometimes I can’t. Still. After seven years. And that’s the way it is. I know you don’t like it about me, and I don’t like it about me, but it may be one of those things that will take longer than seven years to change. My dear psychiatrist, I am way better at it than I used to be.
I am feeling reprimanded, like a dog having my nose rubbed in my own sh*t. I couldn’t give you context for whatever it was three weeks ago because I am intimidated by you, and when you asked me that, my mind went blank as it often does when I am frightened. I’m frightened a lot.
I feel able to terminate by seeing you once a month for a while, then once very six to eight weeks, then once every few months, then once in a while after that, knowing there is a place that exists for me, where I can bring my usual multi-coloured swirls and whirls of emotion and find a listener who can help me understand, in a gentle, empathetic way, the tangles I get into.
I don’t feel able to go through the process being called “addicted to therapy” or “addicted to intensity” no matter how true those things might be. I don’t feel able to tolerate whatever it is you are doing, or to evolve in to a person who does. It feels harsh, and frankly, cruel. This is surely not your intention, but you seem to have some idea of how I should be, and it is not how I am.
I need to feel safe with you, and I don’t. The world challenges me daily, knocks me down, makes me examine my assumptions, forces me to question myself. On the whole, I deal with that with grace these days. I am not asking you be my mother. I am asking you to be on my side again.
You’ve said that you feel confident in my ability to go on without you should I chose not to see you again. I agree, but I wouldn’t like to do that. I feel so hurt and so sad – and angry, too. I don’t want to leave disliking you as I do right now and I’d like your help with this. But if you don’t feel it’s possible to alter your method, maybe reach a compromise, then it would be best for me not to return to therapy with you.
Please let me know.
Yours,
Posted by pinkeye on June 18, 2005, at 12:40:07
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
Great.. I wish I had the same courage.
Good for you.
Posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 13:20:34
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
My heart is breaking for you...such a sad, clear letter. I hope he gets it, understands what you said. How could he not?
I just want to hold and rock you. This would kill me. You are very strong.
(((ShortE)))
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2005, at 15:03:14
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
I think that was very brave of you.
I hope he responds appropriately and sensitively.
((((ShortE))))
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