![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by isla on June 13, 2005, at 16:47:34
Is it usual to have appts. that go between 1 1/2 to 2 hours? I have feelings for my psych. and have told him over the past 3 years. He refuses to refer me to someone else and tells me my feelings are not real. Sometimes when I want to leave the session he does not let me go. I feel that he wants me to keep needing him and to not move forward. We discuss the same things over and over. He does not say anything about himself which I understand is the procedure so I have no problem with that. Sometimes, however, it just makes me more curious. He doesn't wear a wedding ring but will not tell me if he is attached. I suppose he has a right to his own privacy but I also feel it would be better for me to know. I have taken time off from time to time but always go back to him. He talks for most of the session and interrupts me quite frequently. This gets me very frustrated and angry. He is always telling me how I feel and how I am. Shouldn't I know that? Is this normal?
Posted by happyflower on June 13, 2005, at 17:00:17
In reply to in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 13, 2005, at 16:47:34
Hi isla!
It helps you to know that what you are feeling is very normal. It happened to me! But what I am concerned about is the appointments lasting that long. It is important for them to keep their boundries of time. My T keeps the 50 minutes almost always and doesn't go over in less he is in the middle of saying something. But the most he has ever gone over was like 10 minutes. But it seem like his other boundries are good. If you don't know anything about him personally, why do you think you are in love with him?
The things that I feel are strange, is why he isn't letting you leave? How does he do that?
But it also seem like he isn't letting you move forward. To me this is a warning sign, that maybe you might do better with another T. Have you talked about this to him before? I guess we need more information! But what you are feeling is normal. :) Everyone here is great resource for answering you questions! By the way, welcome!
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 13, 2005, at 17:07:38
In reply to in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 13, 2005, at 16:47:34
Ugh. I'm really sorry you are going through such a confusing sitation with your T.
Some red flags jump out at me here. For instance, I've been to 5 therapists, and all sessions were approx. 50 minutes. If I am WAY crazy, we might extend a bit to be sure I'm safe before I leave. How does he charge you for a 2 hour session? As far as not letting you leave...well, heck, unless you are not safe it's up to you when to leave. I'd be sure I was getting my money's worth, but I leave when I'm worn out. Sometimes he might push me to see if I might have a little more energy, but generally, when I am pooped, I leave.
What is discussed there should primarily be directed by you. The T may need to prod and poke a bit, but generally...it's YOUR dollar.
If HE is doing most of the talking, something is clearly not right, imo. It's your session, not his for the claiming. And an occasional interuption would be understood...but it's odd that it would frequent....and simply rude, imo. It's VERY frustrating to be in that position.
Yes, it's standard for T's to not share personal info, however, I've never heard of one who would not say if he is married or not. Seems like that is a pretty basic question, so you have an understanding of what his personal experience is with long term relationships (yeah it shouldn't make a difference with a good T, but...it does to me anyhow).
Yes, you ought to be the one to say how you feel.Your post title says that you are in love with him. Is he aware of these feelings?
Emmy
Posted by Tamar on June 13, 2005, at 17:19:08
In reply to in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 13, 2005, at 16:47:34
Hello isla, and welcome to Babble!The answers to your questions probably depend on the circumstances. I’ll try to give some possible answers (and some questions)…
> Is it usual to have appts. that go between 1 1/2 to 2 hours?
That probably depends on what you’ve agreed with him, and individual circumstances. The usual length of an appointment is about 50 minutes, but if you’ve talked about longer appointments, or if you’re really going through the mill, sometimes you can agree to run over. Do you feel there’s something inappropriate in the length of your appointments?
> I have feelings for my psych. and have told him over the past 3 years. He refuses to refer me to someone else and tells me my feelings are not real. Sometimes when I want to leave the session he does not let me go.
Do you feel he’s being supportive, or do you feel intimidated?
> I feel that he wants me to keep needing him and to not move forward.
Have you discussed that with him?
> We discuss the same things over and over. He does not say anything about himself which I understand is the procedure so I have no problem with that. Sometimes, however, it just makes me more curious. He doesn't wear a wedding ring but will not tell me if he is attached. I suppose he has a right to his own privacy but I also feel it would be better for me to know.
It’s not unusual for therapists to be cagey about their personal lives. And yes, I can understand that it feels as if it would be better to know. My therapist told me that not knowing about his personal life is supposed to make things easier. I don’t always see how things could be harder though!
> I have taken time off from time to time but always go back to him. He talks for most of the session and interrupts me quite frequently. This gets me very frustrated and angry. He is always telling me how I feel and how I am. Shouldn't I know that? Is this normal?
You might not be sure of your feelings. Or you might be very sure and he’s just wrong. Again, it’s hard to know what he’s trying to do. Is he trying to validate your feelings? Or do you think he’s telling you how to feel?
I think if you are angry at him you should tell him. Especially if he’s talking when you want to be talking. And I tend to think interrupting is rude, but maybe it’s just me.
There are two things I would do if I were in your shoes. The first thing is to ask yourself: do you think his behaviour is inappropriate? Do you feel uneasy around him? Notwithstanding your feelings of love for him, do you worry he might do something unethical?
The second is to read "In Session" by Deborah Lott.
I think this whole area is a real minefield. I had very strong feelings for my ex-therapist (I’ve recently terminated) but it was always extremely clear to me that he would never break the boundaries. That made me feel safe. I might have wanted him desperately, but if he’d ever made a move it would have terrified me.
If you feel your therapist’s boundaries are not secure then you need to address the issue as a matter of urgency. Your personal safety is at stake. It may be that he’s made a couple of mistakes, and he needs to be told to sort it out. Perhaps he has blurred the boundaries for reasons he considers therapeutic, but if you’re feeling uncomfortable he needs to tighten things up.
I get the impression from your post that you’re somewhat unsure what the boundaries should be, and that you feel he’s keeping some better than others. Again, reading "In Session" should help you get a grasp on the therapeutic relationship. It sounds to me as if you’re really struggling with boundaries.
I hope this is of some help and that you keep posting to let us know how it’s going.
Best wishes,
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 13, 2005, at 17:22:38
In reply to Re: in love with therpist » isla, posted by Tamar on June 13, 2005, at 17:19:08
I think I linked to the wrong book. I meant to link to the book by Deborah Lott, "In Session: The bond between women and their therapists".
I'll try again.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on June 13, 2005, at 17:24:07
In reply to Oops » Tamar, posted by Tamar on June 13, 2005, at 17:22:38
I'm just getting everything wrong today! Better go to bed now, before it gets worse...
Posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2005, at 17:58:35
In reply to in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 13, 2005, at 16:47:34
Hiya Isla, welcome to Babble :-)
I think session length can vary but yours do sound rather long. I have had sessions that long before but that was because I need a bit of time to get into the session and to wind things up afterwards.
> He refuses to refer me to someone else and tells me my feelings are not real.
Hmm. A 'refusal' is strange. Did he talk to you about why you thought you might be better to see someone else? Sometimes people want to do that when they are talking about hard stuff as a way of avoiding it. In the latter case then it probably isn't productive to switch, but you need to think about why you want to switch.
With respect to telling you that your feelings 'aren't real' that doesn't really help them feel less real! Transference feelings are something that people talk about on the boards quite a lot. It can be hard. Thats partly why people are reading the 'in session' book - because she talks about this.
>Sometimes when I want to leave the session he does not let me go.
Hmm. I guess that if you are 'running away' from hard stuff that might be appropriate. But if you want to leave because you are feeling fed up with him and he won't really help you process stuff then it sounds to me like you might be better off with seeing someone else with or without a referral from him.
>I feel that he wants me to keep needing him and to not move forward. We discuss the same things over and over.
That would be a very good reason to stop going IMO.
Have you tried to talk to him about how seriously you are thinking about some of this stuff? Maybe you could print out your post and give it to him and say that you want to talk about that because you really are starting to wonder how much progress you are making.
>He talks for most of the session and interrupts me quite frequently. This gets me very frustrated and angry. He is always telling me how I feel and how I am.
That doesn't sound good to me.
And what is puzzling... Is that after all that you still like him. I suspect that you might well be better off working with someone else who can listen and control their frustration and anger a bit better.
Posted by Jazzed on June 13, 2005, at 19:58:20
In reply to in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 13, 2005, at 16:47:34
I'd like to know the answers to the questions the others asked too. I find it curious that he does most of the talking and that he won't let you leave. What does he do to prevent you from leaving? If he's telling you your feelings aren't real, well, then a lot of us have unreal feelings. I think it's very normal to fall for someone who listens and seems to care, esp. when you normally tell this person your deepest feelings. I would be very concerned about the situation. Does he have a busy practice, is he well respected? I had a T, when I was younger, who kept me "on the hook". He did a lot of things to make me feel connected to him and dependant, and ultimately I became much sicker than I was to begin with. If your therapy has taken on a life of it's own, if you can't manage to live your life w/o constant thoughts of your T, then it's probably time to move on, and see someone who can help you get over this T.Welcome to the boards btw!
Jazzed
Posted by isla on June 14, 2005, at 16:56:52
In reply to Re: in love with therpist » isla, posted by alexandra_k on June 13, 2005, at 17:58:35
Hi everyone,
I have responded to a few of you but I guess it's easier to just do it once, rather then to send all the babblemail?
1. Yes he knows how I feel and he has not made any inappropriate overtures physically.
2. Yes he knows how angry I feel about him interrupting, and we have discussed referrals many times but he still refuses. He says I can ask my family doctor for a referral if I need to but then I will never "finish the story".
3. My reason for wanting to leave is pretty much directly because of how I feel about him which he also knows. He tells me it will happen with other doctors. Maybe he is right, I don't know, he's the only one I have seen for any length of time. I did make 3 seperate appointments with 3 different pysch. but it didn't work out at all. I told him that the main reason for me coming in is so I can spend time with him. He knows all this, but I guess I get confused because he says it's invitational for me to call him whenever I want and however many times, our appts. which should be 45 min. are usually 1.5 to 2 hrs. (which I love when we're not fighting).
4. Is it normal to fight alot?
5. I have cancelled my last to appointments to have a break because the last one was very conflict ridden, we were arguing about something so stupid, it doesn't even have to do with my depression. It was about couples who have age diffrences. Then his last remark (I think because he was mad) was about how I wanted to lose weight and haven't done anything about it. That pissed me off, but I still could not leave until he opened up his book to schedule the next appt. Both of those I cancelled and said I would call back when I need to rebook but he left a message on my answering machine with an alternative appointment (the next day!) To which I had to call back and say no.
6. I have read many things about boundaries and he seems to be pretty much above board so maybe it's just me being a complete weirdo about stuff. Sorry guys, I'm just obsessed with the guy and I just want to get over it. In his defence I should say that he really has helped me alot, through many painful things and I feel like I need him to help me be normal. I can call him anytime, I can reschedule at anytime. He lets me come in for evening appts. so I don't miss work. If I miss an appt. and I don't tell him I just have to buy him a coffee. All these things keep me there.Thank you to all of you who responded. For some of you I may have just been babbling on and on. I just miss him and am stressed. It's nice to have someone you can say anything to . I guess I'm just afraid because he has the power to hurt me so much.
All the best to all of you.
Posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 21:59:47
In reply to Re: in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 14, 2005, at 16:56:52
> Hi Ilsa,
>
> I have responded to a few of you but I guess it's easier to just do it once, rather then to send all the babblemail?Yep, it is easier to just post here, unless it's private.
>
> 2. Yes he knows how angry I feel about him interrupting, and we have discussed referrals many times but he still refuses. He says I can ask my family doctor for a referral if I need to but then I will never "finish the story".Says you will never finish the story if you move on to someone else? Geeze that sounds an awful like the doc I left who messed me up so much. When I finally left him, he said, "you're not leaving, you'll never leave me, you'll be back!" I never went back. If nothing less, he sounds pretty arrogant.
> 3. My reason for wanting to leave is pretty much directly because of how I feel about him which he also knows. He tells me it will happen with other doctors.It might. Have you thought of trying a female therapist?
>I told him that the main reason for me coming in is so I can spend time with him.
Do you ever discuss anything other than therapy issues during your appts.? What did you say to him when you told him you loved him? Does he act in a seductive manner with you?
>He knows all this, but I guess I get confused because he says it's invitational for me to call him whenever I want and however many times,So, does he let you come in the same day you call? Is he busy, or have lots of open appts? My doc is so busy he gets booked months in advance. Is he saying that these "invitationals" are a good thing? For you or for him?
> 4. Is it normal to fight alot?I don't think it's normal to "fight", maybe disagree, esp. if you've been with the same T for a long time. What do you fight over? (other than what you mentioned, and how has he helped you with that? Do you have a lot of weight to lose? I don't think it seems appropriate to end a session by bringing the weight up.
> 5 we were arguing about something so stupid, it doesn't even have to do with my depression. It was about couples who have age diffrences.
How old are you and how old is he? Were you making the case for the ability of the two of you to make it as a couple?
>when I need to rebook but he left a message on my answering machine with an alternative appointment (the next day!) To which I had to call back and say no.
Wow, sounds like he has a problem if he has to call and leave a message with another appt. Do you get the feeling he also has feelings for you? It will be interesting to see how long he can go w/o hearing from you, but hand in there. Are you actively looking for a new T. That would help keep your mind off of him.
> 6. maybe it's just me being a complete weirdo about stuff.
I don't know, sounds like there were some kind of strange things going on in your therapy that were kind of unusual.
> Sorry guys, I'm just obsessed with the guy and I just want to get over it. In his defence I should say that he really has helped me alot, through many painful things and I feel like I need him to help me be normal. I can call him anytime, I can reschedule at anytime. He lets me come in for evening appts. so I don't miss work. If I miss an appt. and I don't tell him I just have to buy him a coffee. All these things keep me there.In a lot of ways he does sound like a dream T. How long were you in therapy with him. Do you know, is he married, kids? I only ask because I'm wondering how much of a life he has outside the office.
>
> Thank you to all of you who responded. For some of you I may have just been babbling on and on. I just miss him and am stressed. It's nice to have someone you can say anything to . I guess I'm just afraid because he has the power to hurt me so much.I hope you can find someone new who you can work more easily with, and that you don't have such strong feelings for. I know it's hard to separate, so post whenever, someone seems to always be here. Keep us posted on how this goes.
Jazzy
Posted by Shortelise on June 14, 2005, at 23:06:45
In reply to Re: in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 14, 2005, at 16:56:52
"In Session: The Bond Between Women and Their Therapists"
by Deborah A. Lott and Marie Cohen
it's a great book and might really help you figure this out.SOmetimes what we feel about our therapists is an importnat part of therapy, and working throuhg that relationship is a way of working through the problems.
ShortE
Posted by Susan47 on June 15, 2005, at 0:01:00
In reply to Re: in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 14, 2005, at 16:56:52
What's this thing about missing an appointment and not having to pay for it?????
Buy him a coffee??
Excuse me, madam, but my warning bells are bonging all over the place. I suspect if you want this T, it won't take much, you can probably have him. Evening appointments? Go for it. I suspect he's married and isn't talking. Also, you might not be the only woman (?) he does this with, this coercion. I don't like the guy, never met him but from what you say, right off the bat, I don't like him at all, I feel like he's covered me in goo.
Posted by isla on June 15, 2005, at 16:57:19
In reply to Re: in love with therpist » isla, posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 21:59:47
Hi everyone,
Thank you for all your good advice and questions. It's nice to know that I am not the only one with this problem. I will try and answer all the questions and comments I have recieved.
I have never had to pay for any appts. with this T because he is a psychiatrist and in my province if you get a referral from your family doc. then it is free of charge. Appts. with him at the very beginning 3 years ago were approx. 45 min. Now they are usually between 1.5 and 2 hours. I have mixed feelings about this. On a good day when we get along I love it that I can stay there longer and the time flys. When it is difficult I get drained and want to leave. This could be my own problem re: not wanting to talk about difficult things, however, I have a 45 min. drive home so sometimes I just want to leave and I feel like I can't until he opens up his daytimer to schedule the next appt. He has never physically forced me to stay but emotionally he does. Power differential?
The arguement that I discussed with Jazzed re: couples of different ages started out because my mother remarried a much younger man when I was 7. I can understand the relevancy to me in that I may be looking for a "father" but all the boyfriends I have had have been either within a couple of years and I had 2 which were younger. It just seemed pointless to compare what music and tv shows I listen to to get his point across. He is older than me by approx. 10 years. I am 35 and he is in his 40's.
As for "finishing my story" with him I feel that he wants me to keep going to him only, and that no one else will be able to help me. My reasoning is because he refuses to refer me and his points are weak ie: "What if I don't like your new therapist." ?????? We have talked about it a few times but he just keeps repeating himself and then he will say try a referral from your family doc. He also has refused to send a summary of my 3 years of work with him to a new doc. Weird? I have tried 3 other T's through my family doc.: for each time I tried I waited 6 months. The first T said (female) said that she only accepts certain clients and after 3 sessions if you don't conform to her idea of therapy, you are terminated. I wasn't ready for the possible rejection so I only saw her once. The second T I saw only saw his clients once every month and I go once a week which I need. The third T I didn't even get to see because he wasn't accepting new clients anymore. Note: that all of these T's are psychiatrists and in Canada they are covered by the provincial gov't. I could opt for a psychologist but the price is just too high.
I don't have alot of weight to lose (maybe 25 lbs.) so I think his comment was uncalled for.
He does not act seductive outright but I am confused. What would constitute a seductive manner? I'm afraid I'm pretty naive in this area which we have talked about. Yes we have talked about many issues besides just the therapy but each situation usually involves him giving me an analogy and going over the same things. ie He will say "You are so innocent, and so naive, you are a target. You need to please, you can't say no etc. etc. All of these things are true based on the kinds of relationships I've had. So he is right. As for seductiveness, let me see......he has never touched me, we talk about sex alot (I've heard this is normal), I've had lots of abusive partners. I guess it's the fact that I stay long, I can call whenever I want. So maybe he isn't really seductive at all. He's definatley an arrogant T though! He is always right, has even said so!
He will make appts. with me the same day I call in. If not the same day, usually within 2-3 days. It's actually pretty good because he is very flexible with scheduling.
One of the other questions was "Is he married". I have no idea. He doesn't wear a wedding ring but I have asked him and he refuses to tell me. It's his choice really but I don't understand it. I just wish I didn't feel about him the way I do.
I'm glad all of you have responded because I really don't know what the norm is in therapy. It's pretty subjective across all different types of therapy so each type seems to have it's own protocols with respect to boundaries. When I hear from all of you, it gives me the opportunity to understand if what he is doing seems to be the norm based on your experiences. He is the expert so I am relying on his judgement. I sound helpless don't I? I'm really not helpless, just confused. Maybe I read into things in the incorrect way. Thanks for your help and please feel free to talk to me about your issues.
Note: I have weakened my resolve and called him last night to book an appt. My appt. is tonight at 7 pm so I will let you know how it goes.
Posted by Susan47 on June 15, 2005, at 22:43:00
In reply to Re: in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 15, 2005, at 16:57:19
Whatever he's doing, it sounds to me like he's encouraging transference. So I hope he can play it through. Have you read Deborah Lott's book? There's quite a few good books on the market about therapy relationships. You may want to check them out. I found them helpful, and I know others do, as well.
Posted by Jazzed on June 15, 2005, at 22:58:19
In reply to Re: in love with therpist, posted by isla on June 15, 2005, at 16:57:19
>>Appts. with him at the very beginning 3 years I feel like I can't until he opens up his daytimer to schedule the next appt. He has never physically forced me to stay but emotionally he does. Power differential?
If you feel like you want to leave, can you just tell him you need to go, you have a long drive home, and you're ready for him to schedule your next appt?
>
I may be looking for a "father" but all the boyfriends I have had have been either within a couple of years and I had 2 which were younger. It just seemed pointless to compare what music and tv shows I listen to to get his point across. He is older than me by approx. 10 years. I am 35 and he is in his 40's.Did he suggest you were looking for a father? Was he badgering you about your relationship with him, or your mother's relationship with the younger husband?
>
> As for "finishing my story" with him I feel that he wants me to keep going to him only,This seems odd to me, that he won't refer you. Seems there could only be 2 explanations. 1. he needs to keep the cash flow, or 2. he's as hooked on you as you are on him. But, he's being very manipulative either way.
"What if I don't like your new therapist." ??????
So what? At that point it's no longer his business. Tell him if he wants a say in your new T, he can marry you, and then help you decide who you'll go to. See how he reacts to that one!
>>He also has refused to send a summary of my 3 years of work with him to a new doc. Weird?
THIS is really bizarre. Have you looked at your records to see what he's written? I'd want to know esp. if he won't forward them to anyone else. You have a right to them you know.
> Note: that all of these T's are psychiatrists and in Canada they are covered by the provincial gov't. I could opt for a psychologist but the price is just too high.Boy, wish psych. appts here were free! But I think I like my health ins. better here.
>
> I don't have alot of weight to lose (maybe 25 lbs.) so I think his comment was uncalled for.Oh, that was a totally uncalled for comment. What's he doing to help you lose the weight. Again, tell him to marry you, and the two of you can go jogging together!
>
> He does not act seductive outright but I am confused. What would constitute a seductive manner?Going over, telling you he doesn't want you to see anyone else, talking about sex might - depends on the conversation. There are other things, but they're all up for interpretation.
> He will make appts. with me the same day I call in. If not the same day, usually within 2-3 days. It's actually pretty good because he is very flexible with scheduling.Again, I have to wonder about his patient load. Does he have a lot of other clients, do you know? Is it a busy practice, or is he just sitting around? Wonder if any of his other patients are treated the same way.
>
> One of the other questions was "Is he married". I have no idea. He doesn't wear a wedding ring but I have asked him and he refuses to tell me. It's his choice really but I don't understand it. I just wish I didn't feel about him the way I do.In Canada can you do a property search on the internet? Sometimes that will give you the marital info. I know it's kind of a snoopy thing to do, but I don't think most docs would avoid that question. It's so basic.
>
> Note: I have weakened my resolve and called him last night to book an appt. My appt. is tonight at 7 pm so I will let you know how it goes.
Can't wait to hear how it went! Hope it goes well. Boy, the appt. at 7, and then a 45 min drive home? ARGH! That will be hard, esp. if you stay for 1.5 or 2 hrs.Jazzy
Posted by annierose on June 16, 2005, at 6:42:45
In reply to Re: in love with therpist » isla, posted by Jazzed on June 15, 2005, at 22:58:19
Isla -
After reading your first and second posts re: your T, it does make me uncomfortable. I don't know, but his actions may reflect his inexperience in doing therapy vs. prescribing medication for therapy clients.
His boundaries seem quite loose. And that can be confusing for a client. On one hand, you like all the extra time, on the other, why do you feel compelled to stay if you have something else to do? (I understand your answer, that makes sense).
When you inquire, "Is this normal?", I don't think we can tell you. Every theraputic relationship has its own set of nuances. But I do think he sends you confusing messages. Ask yourself, "Is he acting in the best interest of my recovery?"
It is extremely hard to break away from a T. Others on this board have done so, successfully, but not without a lot of inner turmoil and grief. Afterall, you have bared your soul for 3 years with this T.
If you were able to see a psychologist for a few sessions and discuss your cuurent situation, you may receive the feedback you need to make a decision you can live with. It will not be easy.
Good Luck and Welcome to Babble. Keep us posted.
Annierose
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.