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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:42:56
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2005, at 17:05:18
Thanks falls, I do think chatting about it will help. It's so frustrating that the interpretation he made doesn't account for the fact that he DID say what he said, and it WAS hurtful.
That's where I'm at right at this moment. But it changes a lot over time. I do think going twice a week is a good idea. I think I am at the point where I want to go ahead with it, but I'm not sure where he is with it.
Something else to check out....
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:49:02
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on April 22, 2005, at 19:26:31
> Clearly things aren't fully resolved. But the big issues aren't really suited to fifty minute happily ever afters. That's one reason twice a week therapy has its benefits. ;)
I agree. And it's going to be very hard to wait a week for my next session. I think the sooner I can go to twice a week the better.
>
> It wouldn't have been my therapist's choice of reactions, I don't think. He is always really careful not to use the transference excuse that they have built in. He generally acknowledges that there are two people in the room, and he may have screwed up. Then gently probes as to why I reacted the way I did, which I guess is the transference part of it.I so would have preferred this approach. I think that's why I was asking him for his reactions first (and failed), because I knew I would not get them if we went straight to mine. sigh I know that transference is at play here, because otherwise, my reaction would not have been so intense. But couldn't he have been having a bad day too? In fact, I swear he alluded to that towards the end of that bad session, anyway. I can't remember exactly how or what he might have said, but I know I felt that he was acknowledging that this session was not great and that he was not 100 percent. But who knows. Perhaps I needed to think that, too, and pulled that out. It's so confusing!
>
> Do you feel you made any headway at all? Or at least a direction to take at the next session?I do feel like we made some headway. Shoot, at first, he tried to go right into "have you ever felt this way before?" And I came back with "Of COURSE I have!" aka "What a dumb question, and SO NOT what you should be doing right now."
I assume we will go there once the relationship is back on track. Because I was not at all ready or willing to explore this until we resolved the relationship issue.
gg
>
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:55:30
In reply to Re: My session yesterday, posted by annierose on April 22, 2005, at 21:13:15
> hi gg -
> I agree that you do sound less angry, but still frustrated. How are you feeling? It's so hard when they don't admit to having a part in the conflict ... even a tiny part.I am less angry, I think, but still confused and hurt. I think I finally figured out what the "what I want from him" was. I want to be soothed. And that is not at all what he would be likely to do. It doesn't fit the analytical model. I have to learn to soothe myself. But this one session has led me to hear from so many different parts of myself that have different ways of reacting to this. I think that's why how I am feeling or what I think about it seems to change everytime it comes up.
> Did you make a decision on going more frequently? I'm surprised that he is psychoanalyically (sp?) trained and never encouraged you to come more often earlier.
Actually, he has never suggested I come more frequently. It was my idea. Perhpas it just isn't what they do there? I don't know. I can hardly hold things in until Thursday, and actually, I may email him just to maintain contact, because it seems important to do that right now.> A week later, I am feeling warm and cozy again. So there is hope for all of us in T struggles. It's such an amazing process. Our brains are forging all these new connections and wanting MORE, MORE, MORE.
I'm so glad that you and your T worked things out and it led to something more. And I've been in that give me more, more, more phase.
>
> As a personal aside, I am in deep denial, and plunging into despair over the weather forecast of 2 - 4 inches of white stuff by morning and another 6 - 10 of snow in the evening! Seriously, I had all the boots and mittens packed away. Wasn't it just 80 degrees last week??It's snowing as I type this. Sigh. I used to hate spring for this very reason. It's such a tease. But I love it now since I started gardening. Of course I am still trying to decide if I should cover the Japanese fern I planted about two weeks ago.
Brrrrrr
gg
Posted by annierose on April 24, 2005, at 6:40:48
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:49:02
Not to go off track, but that is another question to add to our list:
"Have you ever felt this way before?"
Golly gee wiz, I HATE that question! I want to scream, "of course, I see the connection, I'm not an idiot, but HOW do I stop feeling that way?"
Posted by annierose on April 24, 2005, at 6:50:09
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » annierose, posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:55:30
I thought he was encouraging you to come in twice a week and implied that if you didn't, you were not willing to work on your depression ... which made no sense to me at the time.
Wanting to be soothed. That's nice. I like that too. Leaving a session when my hurt inner child was "hugged" is a wonderful feeling.
Even though my T is psychodynamic, I would say that she isn't a blank slate to me. Not that I know anything personal about her (very little), but I know all the important things: she is kind, patient, understanding, smart, funny, and punctual.
Do you ever wonder if any of your clients are going through this angst with you?
Posted by Susan47 on April 24, 2005, at 14:51:23
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » Susan47, posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:32:18
Actually what I said was, my therapist did not allow Me to see Him as a person, do you understand? You took it the other way 'round.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 24, 2005, at 21:41:09
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by Susan47 on April 24, 2005, at 14:51:23
Aha, that makes so much more sense. Sorry.
gg
Posted by Susan47 on April 24, 2005, at 21:52:01
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » Susan47, posted by gardenergirl on April 24, 2005, at 21:41:09
I see that you're really answering my question anyway, that he was more of a person to you in the past but he's seeming less of a real person to you right now, lately. And it's really interesting that it happens that way. It's like getting sudden distance from a friend, and not knowing why, it's confusing. Well, to me anyway.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 24, 2005, at 22:18:10
In reply to Well, actually I'm sorry too because » gardenergirl, posted by Susan47 on April 24, 2005, at 21:52:01
Yes, it's extremely confusing, from a friend or a T. But I think especially from a T. Because they are supposed to be consistent.
Confused is an accurate description for how I'm feeling right now.
gg
Posted by cricket on April 25, 2005, at 7:47:42
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » annierose, posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2005, at 23:55:30
> I am less angry, I think, but still confused and hurt. I think I finally figured out what the "what I want from him" was. I want to be soothed. And that is not at all what he would be likely to do. It doesn't fit the analytical model. I have to learn to soothe myself.
It is very interesting what you say about being soothed. I think that lately I've been wanting that from my T too. And perhaps the issue is that it doesn't fit the analytical model. I particularly remember one dream that really upset me, I was shaking and sobbing as I related it, and as soon as I finished speaking (in fact he didn't even quite wait until I was finished) he immediately launched into an interpretation, without missing a single beat to assess my emotional state, without even looking up at me.
You said you have to learn to soothe yourself. My problem is that I already know how to do that. In fact, I've split off parts of myself whose almost sole function is soothing me. So for me to want and allow someone real to soothe me would be major progress, I think. Either this T doesn't agree or he's so far off the mark in understanding me, I wonder what I've been doing there, or maybe he's just not capable of soothing.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2005, at 4:41:42
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by annierose on April 24, 2005, at 6:50:09
>>
> Wanting to be soothed. That's nice. I like that too. Leaving a session when my hurt inner child was "hugged" is a wonderful feeling.I miss that feeling. It used to be there a lot. I wonder what happened? More to talk about.
>
> Even though my T is psychodynamic, I would say that she isn't a blank slate to me. Not that I know anything personal about her (very little), but I know all the important things: she is kind, patient, understanding, smart, funny, and punctual.
>
> Do you ever wonder if any of your clients are going through this angst with you?I do occasionally wonder this. So far I can't say that I've had many hints that someone might be. But then I'm not sure what it looks like from the other side unless someone actually starts talking about it. And I think that may take more time to develop that trust and the relationship than I've been able to spend with any one client yet.
gg
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2005, at 4:43:34
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by annierose on April 24, 2005, at 6:40:48
> Not to go off track, but that is another question to add to our list:
>
> "Have you ever felt this way before?"
>
> Golly gee wiz, I HATE that question! I want to scream, "of course, I see the connection, I'm not an idiot, but HOW do I stop feeling that way?"LOL, that's a bit like my reaction. But it was more like...Are you kidding me? Did you not hear anything about how I'm upset with YOU????
I don't use that question much, but next time I do, I'm sure I will giggle internally and slap myself on the forehead.
gg
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 7:42:33
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » annierose, posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2005, at 4:41:42
I always wonder how my therapist can be so ignorant of the feelings we discuss on Babble. I have to remind myself of two things. We're a self selected bunch who probably have a greater investment in therapy than many. And a lot of people who come to this board even have been reluctant to discuss things with their therapists. And many do so with the board's encouragement.
And on general we read a lot about how therapy is supposed to work, even those of us not in the field officially. :))
That's why my therapist was at least a bit interested in the idea of reading uncensored thoughts from clients here.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 7:43:08
In reply to Dumb questions » annierose, posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2005, at 4:43:34
Posted by annierose on April 26, 2005, at 15:48:17
In reply to Dumb questions » annierose, posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2005, at 4:43:34
My T once asked me (in response to me telling her I didn't like certain questions) what I would like her to ask me instead. Well, she had me stumped.
Typically, if I go slient for a period of 5+ minutes, she'll ask, something to the effect,
"what's running through your mind," or "what are you thinking about?", etc. I feel those questions are rote. On the other hand, they do help engage me back into the session. So I stopped getting irritated.
Posted by annierose on April 26, 2005, at 15:51:15
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » annierose, posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2005, at 4:41:42
Are you finished with school this year? Are you leaning towards any type of modality?
Posted by mair on April 26, 2005, at 22:33:10
In reply to My session yesterday, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
gg
I realize I'm jumping into this thread really late, but I don't understand the whole medical/psych dichotomy.For years I've been sort of going along my merry way with meds and therapy trying to ward off and manage the depressive feelings that arise from any number of environmental triggers. In the last couple of months I've fallen into a deeper more sustained depression that my pdoc categorizes as clearly biological. (she stresses this because I tend to question it)
I've actually argued to my therapist that in this state, I'm not sure I should keep going to therapy because my ability to work on anything substantive is compromised, and the last time I saw her I told her that I thought i should stop telling her about suicidal feelings because it makes me feel afterwards like I should apologize to her. Her view is that regardless of the biological factors, there's a real value to therapy when I'm really depressed. Therapy doesn't lose it's value; it just has a different focus and expectations have to be adjusted.
I've spent many sessions, in varying degrees of mental health, talking to her about meds. Sometimes she's the one who suggests that it's time for me to see the pdoc and look into meds changes - she tends to have a more objective view of how I'm doing than I do, and I don't see my pdoc often enough for her to really monitor what's going on. My T also been a good sounding board for me before some pdoc sessions - helping me process the decisions I have to make, and helping me formulate the right questions. But as important as anything, in my case there are a whole host of emotional issues which surround meds issues. Maybe I need to be encouraged to stick with them or maybe I need to be told sometimes that it was ok to drop a particular drug. These issues tend to loom largest when I'm doing worst, and more often than not it's my T who deals with them since I see her so much more frequently than I see my pdoc. Frankly at low times, I'm not sure I could sustain a commitment to stick with a new med and all its attendant side effects if I didn't have someone I could talk to on a more regular basis about what I was feeling about whatever the medication was.
So from my perspective, your T's comment about not being able to help you if you keep talking about meds seemed really off base and it would really have pissed me off.
I hope you're feeling a little safer these days.
mair
Posted by littleone on April 27, 2005, at 15:44:46
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by mair on April 26, 2005, at 22:33:10
> I've actually argued to my therapist that in this state, I'm not sure I should keep going to therapy because my ability to work on anything substantive is compromised
> Her view is that regardless of the biological factors, there's a real value to therapy when I'm really depressed. Therapy doesn't lose it's value; it just has a different focus and expectations have to be adjusted.
Hi mair, it's nice to see you posting again :)
Did your T explain this further? What value there is in therapy if you just can't work on things or what the adjusted focus and expectations would be?
Posted by gardenergirl on April 28, 2005, at 6:19:19
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » gardenergirl, posted by mair on April 26, 2005, at 22:33:10
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, mair. I am feeling a bit better, but I am still confused about a number of things. And it's brought up a lot of emotion that feels like it is swirling around. It tends to lessen as I get closer to my next session, though. So today I feel pretty calm.
About the medication thing, I think what your T says is exactly right, and he used to be that way too. So his statement that I am "overmedicalizing" does not fit with my history with him. I really think he was just frustrated and having a bad day, but I doubt I will ever get that out of him. I still feel like we need to talk about this same stuff, though, because it was not resolved last week.
He'll probably want to move on to "when else have I felt this way" but I'm not budging until I am less confused, darn it.
Take care, and good to see you back.
gg
Posted by mair on April 28, 2005, at 16:35:26
In reply to Re: My session yesterday » mair, posted by littleone on April 27, 2005, at 15:44:46
The way she described it to me, is that it's important that there be someone to share my pain or hold my pain - this is a concept which is beyond me. In fact when she asked me why it was so important for me to talk to her about my suicidal thinking even if I wasn't really at risk, I couldn't come up with the most basic answer which is that it would decrease my degree of isolation. I should get this because she talks about it all the time - my tendency when I am most depressed to emotionally isolate myself and as I might put it, totally live inside my head. She pointed out to me that nothing about me outwardly changes when I'm depressed. I pretty much look the same and act the same, and she wouldn't know how bad off I am if I didn't tell her. (why can't she see the dark circles under my eyes?) I guess, in her view, it's easy for me to inwardly isolate myself because no one is likely to notice that there's anything wrong.
Before I slipped into this current episode, my therapist and I had been working pretty hard at some issues which have been tough for me. It was difficult and occasionally traumatic, but I felt pretty good about it because I felt that I was stretching myself and maybe actually making some progress. Thus it was doubly upsetting to have to abandon those topics - and we really did have to abandon them because I couldn't begin to sustain the calm or attention to really work on them. Being depressed usually means that I'm tons more anxious generally. My actual experience is that since getting more depressed, I mostly just talk about how miserable I am and she tries to remind me of all that there are several reasons why I should feel confidence that I am going to pull out of this. I feel bad about my end of our sessions - like it's just so much whining, but it is keeping us connected in a way that I'm sure is important and maybe that connection will make it easier to pick up with meatier stuff later on when/if I feel more competent.
Between my vacation and hers, I went a 2 week stretch without seeing her. Normally that's not a very big deal but this time the 6 day stretch from when I got back and my appointment today seemed interminable and I must have told her several times today that I was really glad she was back. Also I jumped at her offer to see me tomorrow. This is just so unusual for me - to feel so acutely that I need her and be able to express that need even in a limited way.
I don't really know what it means.
Thanks for asking - I'm sure this is a much longer answer than you were looking for.
mair
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 19:02:28
In reply to Re: long answer to your short question » littleone, posted by mair on April 28, 2005, at 16:35:26
Mair, that really was a big step forward for you! I'm so pleased for you and your therapist.
Posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 19:15:33
In reply to Re: long answer to your short question » littleone, posted by mair on April 28, 2005, at 16:35:26
Isn't it amazing that even if you don't know why you need, you know you just do. And it is good that you can tell her.
I've learned to think of my need for my therapist as insurance of containment. I feel him wrapping around me to help me contain the overflowing emotions and/or the worsing depression. I asked him today if it was OK that I was coming to therapy to "just" meet my attachment needs right now. He sort of grinned at me and said, "yes" but he thought there was so much more going on than "just" that.
But he seemed somehow pleased that I *would* just come to meet this need...said it is a big step for me.
Feels like a step backwards to me.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 29, 2005, at 8:21:22
In reply to Re: long answer to your short question » mair, posted by daisym on April 28, 2005, at 19:15:33
I went into yesterday's session feeling less nervous than last week, but still not relaxed like I usually am. I told him about all the emotions I had felt at different times over the week: sadness and sorrow, anger, fear, confusion, etc. One thing I told him I think really struck him, and kind of led him to change his stance a bit. I told him how I woke up very early one morming and was remembering last week's session. I started to cry remembering, because at one point when I was crying very hard in the session, he shifted rather signficantly in his chair. I wasn't looking at him at the time, but I flinched anyway. I don't know what I thought he was doing, but I had this flash in my head that he was going to get up and come over to me. This scared me. And remembering it made me feel very sad. He wondered if I thought he was coming over to harm me, but actually, I think what went through my head was that he might be coming over to soothe me. But yet I flinched and didn't want him near me. (And he wouldn't get up anyway...it would be so foreign).
Anyway, his tone of voice seemed much softer and gentler the rest of the session. I also told him that one of the things I thought I wanted from him but couldn't name last week was soothing. And how feeling that need later in the week felt very primal and infantile to me. It was upsetting that I wanted soothing from him and yet I didn't want him near me. I suspect that I might have been like that as an infant and toddler, too. Insecure attachment?
And then I just put my head back on the couch, closed my eyes, and said "I'm so screwed up!" He usually would challenge that, and I did look at him and say "I know I come by it honestly" but...And then I really started to cry because I just felt like there is nothing that can make up for this pain. You can't go back and fix it. And that is just devastating. I felt a bit safer this session, which is good considering what a blubbery mess I was. Slighly emotionally held. So we are making our way back to relationship.
I also asked him about the transference thing and said I just didnt' understand how I could have been responsible for the whole mess by "needing him to be the bad guy." He adamantly swears that he never said it was all my fault, but rather there were two people in the room. And he admitted that in reflecting about it over the last week (don't you love to hear that your T thinks about you between sessions?), he thinks his comment about making me choose between a medical or psychological approach "might have been sadistic." (Ya think?) At any rate, I had been thinking along the lines that if I did spark this thing off, it would be masochistic of me to "need" conflict in order to get movement out of a rut. Grrrrrr
And we agreed to go to twice a week in a couple of weeks when his schedule opens up. He was very very careful to make sure I understood that it was a schedule issue that was holding it up. I can see why he'd be careful, if I am only hanging onto negative messages lately.
sigh. Needed a significant nap after this one.
But feel better today.
gg
Posted by annierose on April 29, 2005, at 9:18:28
In reply to Update...yesterday's session, posted by gardenergirl on April 29, 2005, at 8:21:22
Hard work, but good work too gg!!
I think you guys are back on course. I am so happy that it seems you are over the hump AND can start 2x per week sessions. I really like going more often.
I know exactly what you mean about flinching and wanting soothing at the same time. This is EXACTLY what my T and I are working on too!! Those exact words as well ... how weird is that? I see it re: sex as well ... wanting it and not ... all at the same time.
Over on the relationship board, I mentioned how my T said that going to therapy was like being touched. That is dead on right. But I can't get my brain wrapped around this concept on how it fits. She told me yesterday that it fits perfectly and explained how and go figure, I can't remember any of her explanation ... what does that mean?
I also had a similar experience last summer. My son and I were involved in a car accident. After leaving him in ICU, I kept my therapy appointment and sobbed and sobbed. I had my hands over my face, wrenching with pain. I heard her move in her chair (she probably felt so uncomfortable or saddness for me) and I quickly stopped crying, afraid she was going to come over to hug me (but knowing at the same time, she never would touch me).
I'll say it again, the therapy relationship is so intense, strange, wonderful, healing
Annierose
Posted by fallsfall on April 29, 2005, at 11:31:53
In reply to Update...yesterday's session, posted by gardenergirl on April 29, 2005, at 8:21:22
How was your nap?
You did very hard work, GG. Be proud of yourself. I'm proud of you.
>(don't you love to hear that your T thinks about you between sessions?)
Ahhhhhhhhhhh - that is one of the best.....
I'm so glad that you could understand more about your own reactions AND move closer in the relationship in the same session. Feels like a win-win.
I know what you mean about him being so careful that you know it is a scheduling issue - and I love it when my therapist does that because it shows that he knows what matters to me, and that he cares enough to try to be sure that those things are very clear. If he gets a cancellation, will he call you? Or is that asking too much. I think you will like 2/week. But expect it to be a little different (maybe not immediately, but pretty soon).
You did really well, GG.
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