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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2004, at 12:01:22
My 16 year old daughter and I have been at war for some time. Last year she lost credit for an English course because she was tardy to school too many times. She would create messes in the house with the sole purpose to drive me crazy (my house is not neat and clean, but I am trying really hard to improve that - so she would put two loads of laundry spread out all over the family room floor and leave them there for a week and a half).
I forced her to go to a therapist. After 1 1/2 sessions, they called me in. She was "cooperative" but wasn't talking about any issues that she had. So the therapist said that he wanted to see us together - and his "patient" would be our relationship. She has been very vocal about how she doesn't have any problems, and that I can go by myself anytime I want (I already see an individual therapist 3 times a week). I dragged her there 4 times (1 1/2 times by herself, 2 1/2 times with me), then I went once alone (she was having a peer crisis and refused to go), and we went together one more time. Yesterday I went alone.
She has only been tardy to school once this year, and most of the time she isn't making messes for the sake of making messes. She still doesn't want to pick things up when I ask her to. She has started doing things like putting her dishes in the sink, and filling pans with water. So, from my perspective, things really have improved. She says that she thinks that therapy has made our relationship more strained (well, yeah, now she has to make some effort...).
I wanted her to go yesterday. Two weeks before we had a really important session. We talked about how if I asked her to do something that I should attach a consequence to her not doing it, so that she could be making a choice. Because she *will* need/want to rebel sometimes - she's 16. This way, she can choose when to rebel, and I can have consequences that will help me to accept her rebellion. Seemed important to me. She also started talking about how she thought it was unfair of me to ask her to do something when I'm home all day playing Alchemy on the computer (I'm disabled due to severe depression). But she did acknowledge that the Alchemy was something that I did to calm myself and keep myself together (so she does understand that I *do* have problems and that my "lazy" behavior does have a purpose). We didn't get into this too deeply, and then she decided she was going to leave early (which she had told me that she was going to do) - so she missed the last 5 minutes of the session. I think that the topic about my depression was pretty painful for her.
So the question was whether I should force her to go to the appointment yesterday. She flat out refused to go. I cannot physically pick her up and take her to the appointment - she's 16. I couldn't feel comfortable with generating a "consequence" for not going to therapy. It just didn't feel right to do that. Therapy isn't a "chore". And what would the consequence be? No car this weekend? Whatever I chose would seem insufficient to me and vast overkill to her. So I asked her to go. I told her that it was helpful for me, for her and for us. She told me to have a nice time. I told her that I was disappointed that she wouldn't go. She threatened to start making messes all over the house again if I tried to make her go. She said that she wasn't tardy for school anymore and she was more cooperative with me (which is true), so she's done what needed to be done and she doesn't want to go anymore.
I went without her. In tears. I cried through the whole session.
I told him how I tried to get her to come. He agreed that consequences don't quite fit the therapy situation. He suggested telling her that I was disappointed and hurt (I had said that I was disappointed). He said that it really doesn't work to *Force* teens to go to therapy. He said I had done the right thing. He was pleased about the chore I had asked her to do (cleaning off two horizontal surfaces that she uses to dump her stuff), and agreed that since that conversation had gone cooperatively that it would have been unnatural to impose a consequence right then. But I had told her the consequence the next day (which he thought was appropriate), so now she has a choice of whether she will clean the surfaces or whether I will (and then I can do whatever I want with whatever is on the surfaces). She said she will have it done by Sunday (which is acceptable to me). He thought I had handled that just right.
Yet I was completely destroyed for the whole session. 4 kleenexes, tears running down my cheeks most of the time. We talked about how she really did have issues, but that there really was no way that she was going to admit that she did have issues. So I have to "hold" all of the issues for both of us. That the only way we were going to get her to come would be to help me with *my* issues. But that she was likely to refuse to do that, too. That makes me feel loved. She won't give me 1 hour every other week to help me. But still I was feeling completely destroyed - excruciating pain.
Then he asked what else I was feeling. I had come up with a metaphor recently that expressed my feeling. In the old days, pregnant teens were sent off to places to be hidden while they were pregnant and had their babies. The babies were put up for adoption and the teen returned home as if nothing had happened. This metaphor captures the feeling that my depression is unacceptable, that they (my ex and my daughter) want me to just disappear until I can "fix" it, that they don't want to have to be involved - they just want it to go away, that I have to fix it by myself (alone). I told the therapist about feeling alone. (It's not that I expect my daughter to help me through therapy... but I guess a little acknowledgement...?)
He said "It sounds like you feel that she is rejecting and abandoning you. And she *is*. That is her job as a teenager." I think he is right. The pain comes from my abandonment issues - that is why it is so excruciating. But it *IS* her job to "reject" and abandon me - that is what growing up is all about. And I know that I've done my job well if she *can* move on into a life of her own. She is my 3rd child - I have one in college and one in the Army. I let them go with not too much trouble. But she's my last, and her siblings were living with their dad for their late teen years. And she's definately the most "challenging" of the three.
I have to figure out how to separate my abandonment issues from my daughter, and accept her declaration of independence as a step forward for her rather than a rejection of me.
Posted by 64bowtie on October 13, 2004, at 14:48:05
In reply to Teens and Abandonment (long), posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2004, at 12:01:22
ff,
>
> He said "It sounds like you feel that she is rejecting and abandoning you. And she *is*. That is her job as a teenager." I think he is right. The pain comes from my abandonment issues - that is why it is so excruciating. But it *IS* her job to "reject" and abandon me - that is what growing up is all about. And I know that I've done my job well if she *can* move on into a life of her own. She is my 3rd child - I have one in college and one in the Army. I let them go with not too much trouble. But she's my last, and her siblings were living with their dad for their late teen years. And she's definately the most "challenging" of the three.
>
> I have to figure out how to separate my abandonment issues from my daughter, and accept her declaration of independence as a step forward for her rather than a rejection of me.
><<< Slating her emancipation (social, not legal) from you is not an act of rejection. If, however, you feel she is still acting, feeling, and intending to be irresponsible, perhaps her "growing-up" is a stubborn act of defiance not an attempt at emancipation. This inappropriate defiance can leave you inappropriately abandoned by her, because she is not in touch with what she is about yet. Bear in mind the basics, that if this is a power struggle, and if power is the ability to make a difference, then I doubt her defiance will make a better life for anyone concerned.
Rod
Posted by antigua on October 13, 2004, at 15:48:40
In reply to Teens and Abandonment (long), posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2004, at 12:01:22
I'm sorry that you're hurting so bad. I'd like to help, but all I have are words.
In a semi-sober moment, my mother, who had six kids (had, not raised), once warned me about my own children, "Don't let them hurt you. They'll hurt you if they can." I thought it was the oddest comment coming from a mother. I never thought about them hurting me deliberately.
But that was before I had a teenager. Here you are supposed to rejoice because you have done your job well--she's ready to soar on her own, but it hurts. For me too, it hurts because I put so much emphasis on every little thing that's a left-over hurt from my own sad life. I mean, my son should treat me like a queen because he has had a very stable life and not a devastating chaotic one like I did. He should be falling over w/appreciation. But they never see it that way; they just see the life they've led, like we did before them.
You can separate yourself out. I had to keep telling myself that this morning when I was in a state because my son was taking the PSAT today and I wanted him to do really well. I mean REALLY well. I thought what's up w/this, why does it matter so much? It's just a test, he's a good test taker, I know he's smart, blah, blah, blah...
But my brother and sister were National Merit Scholars (and I wasn't) and I want my son to be one. Totally unreasonable. I really resisted nagging him about the test.
I know I will have a terrible time letting go, too.
Sorry to turn this into me, me, me... but you seemed said and I wanted you to know that you aren't alone.
best,
antigua
Posted by daisym on October 13, 2004, at 19:07:10
In reply to Teens and Abandonment (long), posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2004, at 12:01:22
(((Falls)))
I was such a wreck when my first left home, I have no idea how I'll live through my 3rd and last doing it. I think for those of us with abandonment issues, it doesn't get easier. I feel more and more frantic about being left AGAIN!
But you are absolutely right, growing up and away means you are doing your job and giving her what she needs to be an individual. And even though it was brief, it does seem that the therapy has help you negotiate a few things. The war might not be over but the battles are less brutal.
Overall, your tears seem to be really appropriate. Stemming from fear of failing her, or having already done so, and from losing her. You haven't failed her by being sick. Try to remember that depression is an illness. She, as a selfish teen, might resent this but somewhere inside, she understands that you aren't doing it on purpose. It pains me to read that you think your family wishes you would just go away until you are better. I wish I knew how to help you get them to understand but I have no wise words here.
Just that it is a common human failing to not understand illness and not want to be around it. It makes us all look at ourselves without our immortality glasses on.Keep reminding yourself you are doing a good job and she is growing up into a very nice young lady. The proof is how she acts with OTHER people.
Hugs from me.
-D
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