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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 20:41:40
In reply to In defense of Male Therapist, posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 18:37:38
>
> We talked about giving and receiving and how it feels to be sexually selfish. Now this isn't something I've ever thought about before. Turns out I'm uncomfortable taking...because I'm not sure when my turn is suppose to end and his begins. It is a life-pattern, always meet everyone else's needs, and it spills over, even into sex.
>My T talks about the same thing, but he calls it subject and object. Sometimes you're the subject and sometimes you're the object. I want to be the object but my desire for control makes that really hard, and my husband is would like to the subject more often but his desire to please makes it easier for him to be the object. We have learned to trade off the roles but it's hard sometimes. When we can it makes our sex better..and anything is better than the awful way it used to be. As Daisy says above, it isn't just about sex, it just lops over into the bedroom.
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 20:54:23
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 20:41:40
Lucy your posts really made me think about sex as surrender. I used to feel that way about sex. I don't know what happened but somewhere in the single years I couldn't do that anymore. When I could, sex was fantastic. I never once surrendered to my last husband, not that I can recall at any rate. Never had an O with him either, unless I was ... imagining something else.
Okay. Now I know why I had sexual feelings for my therapist. It makes a lot of sense to me. Maybe I can think things through a bit now, oh gawd. Nevertheless it doesn't change the fact that he's drop dead gorgeous. God I had such a double whammy. Therapists like him ought to be illegal. Ew ew ew.
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:59:04
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist » lucy stone, posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 20:54:23
I see I have years of sex therapy ahead of me. These issues are the equivilant to a doctoral thesis for a kindergartner. grin.
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 21:05:05
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:59:04
Posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 21:14:46
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 20:59:04
> I see I have years of sex therapy ahead of me. These issues are the equivilant to a doctoral thesis for a kindergartner. grin.
I'm in my 50s and have been with the same guy for over 30 years and we are just now starting to figure it out, largely because of the work I am doing in my analysis. Better late than never, I guess.
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist, posted by lucy stone on September 9, 2004, at 21:14:46
I'm not far behind you. Forties. With same guy for 25+ years, married over ten.
But my problems are so very basic. I couldn't kiss my dates back when I was dating because kissing felt like being smothered. My now husband was the only exception. But years into our relationship that smothering fear came back. Touching is an irritant. Intercourse is painful.
And trying to do anything to make any of it better *feels* like I'm being a facilitator to my own... Oh never mind. But the upshot is that I sabotage any attempts on my part to make things any better.
With that level of dysfunction and that much resistance to change, this latest effort is also doomed to failure and I might as well give up and cancel and save myself the money and stress.
Posted by daisym on September 9, 2004, at 22:38:48
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
Don't give up before you get started!
I know that smothered feeling. I float away more than 50% of the time these days and just let it happen. And then I have an emotional melt down later. I tell myself often that it isn't my husband's fault that I don't enjoy sex or that it stirs up such intense memories for me. I'm really trying hard to meet his needs and still protect myself. It is all complicated by my husband's illnesses which makes sex for him much more challenging...you can't "just" do it. Timing is everything.
One of the things my therapist asked me is what do I "like"...what would make it perfect for me? It was an amazing thing to realize that I've never thought about what I like...which, of course, was his whole point.
I'm not a martyr by any stretch. It just is one more thing that stresses an already stressed household. So it would be nice to have more clarity about what my mind and body want.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 9, 2004, at 22:44:56
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
Dinah, please don't give up your courageous quest. One very interesting thing to look into is Flomax (generic tamulosin), It's used for painful intercourse and penetration, though it's not yet very well known for that. It's a safe drug; Dr, Mulhall, at Sloan-Kettering in New York has pioneered the use of it for painful intercourse; you could call him, or ask your doctor to call for you. We discovered it because my husband developed pain with erections after prostate surgery for cancer. He just went into a cascade of negative feelings (it hurts, it's no longer a pleasure, I can't do it any more, I feel so guilty and worthless, etc.). The Flomax took away the pain entirely, and he's been able to slowly rebuild his confidence and ability to experience pleasure. Sex isn't quite as spontaneous or easy after that surgery, but the Flomax (and Viagra as needed) has helped us keep going as sexual partners. I don't know for sure if it can be as effective in women as in men, but I think it can be.
Posted by crushedout on September 9, 2004, at 22:46:15
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger* » daisym, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 19:18:10
In *heterosexual* sex, yes, that's true. (Sorry, just always have to point out when people forget about gay sex, which has a completely different dynamic, obviously.)
Posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 0:12:32
In reply to Sex therapy, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 13:15:26
I've just caught up with this thread. How brave of you, Dinah. I hope you'll keep us updated. I'm curious how a sex therapist can help.
Posted by daisym on September 10, 2004, at 0:14:24
In reply to help for painful intercourse » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 9, 2004, at 22:44:56
I have to ask, and of course, you don't have to answer...
Did you find dealing with your husband's sexual difficulties triggering at all? It seems that I take so much of his struggle on myself and it is just so hard to not get freaked about not being able to meet these needs. Even when the performance stuff is medically based.
Of course, I think I have to solve all the world's problems.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 0:39:09
In reply to Re: help for painful intercourse » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 10, 2004, at 0:14:24
I certainly did find it triggering. Before we got some help, I caught myself thinking *I* was actually the cause of his problems- for not being as young and sexy as I once was, (etc.) It's helped us a lot to have a doctor we can both see and confide in. He's also helped us face the realities of what prostate cancer can do to a man's sexual desire and ability- to lower our expectations some, and, most of all, to enjoy what we still can have together. I think the doctor (a specialist in physically-caused sexual dysfunction) helped most of all. He has had so much experience, and gave us a clear and very supportive message, that, while my husband had been through a serious illness (surgery followed by radiation), all was not lost. Shifting away a bit from performance-oriented sex to a more Tantric kind has also helped take a lot of the pressure off him. I love it because it emphasizes closeness
Posted by lucy stone on September 10, 2004, at 5:52:55
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
> I'm not far behind you. Forties. With same guy for 25+ years, married over ten.
>
> But my problems are so very basic. I couldn't kiss my dates back when I was dating because kissing felt like being smothered. My now husband was the only exception. But years into our relationship that smothering fear came back. Touching is an irritant. Intercourse is painful.
>
> And trying to do anything to make any of it better *feels* like I'm being a facilitator to my own... Oh never mind. But the upshot is that I sabotage any attempts on my part to make things any better.
>
> With that level of dysfunction and that much resistance to change, this latest effort is also doomed to failure and I might as well give up and cancel and save myself the money and stress.
>
I'm not fond of being kissed, even by my husband, but it sounds like you are more adverse to it than I am. I also don't find sexual touching particularly arousing unless I am doing the touching because of my control issues. That's where a vibrator helps us, he can do the stimulating without directly touching me. Dysfunctional, I know. I didn't say it was perfect, just better. You could get the surgery your gyn recommended to help with the painful intercourse. I'm resonably certain that she could find a way to code it that would make the insurance company pay. Do you think your T could help you with the resistance to change at all? I have told my T that sometimes I feel like giving up on the whole sex thing altogether and he says of course that's an option but I can tell he doesn't think it's one I should exercise. He wants me to live a fuller life in all ways and sex is part of that. If you T could help with the resistance the sex therapist is much more likely to be able to help the dysfunction.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 10, 2004, at 9:14:47
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by lucy stone on September 10, 2004, at 5:52:55
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
In reply to Dinah, I hope this endeavor helps! (nm), posted by gardenergirl on September 10, 2004, at 9:14:47
My therapist withdrew his support for the endeavor after discovering that I had absolutely no intention of discussing ego states at all. I was planning to discuss the meat of the matter, but not use those words, by saying "Intellectually I know that ...., but I can't stop feeling ...." To me, that's the same thing and I don't get what the big deal is.
But he says it's leading her to believe that she is dealing with one thing (ambivilance) instead of something completely different (a different attitude towards sexuality between two ego states that are neither of them the slightest bit ambivilant). I don't understand why that's important.
So I called and left a message to that effect. Well, not that I don't understand why it's an important distinction, but the ego state stuff. And told her I would completely understand if she didn't want to deal with such nonsense. Not that I put it exactly that way, of course. :) But she'll likely bail and the point will be moot.
And my therapist isn't as stupid as he sounded last evening. He did note the timing and guess that part of the intent was to lessen the shameful dependence on him, tho he put it differently of course.
So unless you hear otherwise, my sex experiment is likely over before it begins.
Posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 12:45:54
In reply to Quite probably over before it begins, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
this may be a dumb question, but why don't you want to talk about ego states with her?
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:10:14
In reply to Quite probably over before it begins, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
Hi Dinah,
Maybe she'll leave ego states out of it? It sounds like your therapist is trying to tell your potential sex therapist how she should work with you. Shouldn't the sex therapist determine that?
Just a thought.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
In reply to Re: Quite probably over before it begins » Dinah, posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:10:14
And probably need to lie down for a bit. But the overview is that my regular therapist thinks *all* therapists deserve to work with full information and that I would be misleading her particularly in this case because the resistance and fear, etc. is particularly related to ego states. He also thinks sex therapy just wouldn't work under those conditions.
Seems like the sex therapist agrees. She just called me back. Said she was "willing" to see me Wednesday as scheduled, wouldn't require that I actually talk about ego states as she thinks she understands what I mean, but would require that I sign a release allowing her to talk to xxx so that they could decide if it was in my best interests to continue on with her. There was a note of extreme caution in her voice that let me know the conclusion is pretty much foregone. Especially since my therapist didn't seem to keen on the idea today.
People just don't want to get involved in anything with ego states involved. It's scary to them. This is why I try to keep it a secret. My therapist is ok with it, but most therapists would run incontinently from the merest mention. H*ll, mine would have too, if he had known what he was taking on.
Sigh. So my fears of rejection over this issue are yet again confirmed. And my therapist wonders why I feel so much shame about it.
I'm going to bed.
Unless someone's able to meet me in Open to divert me until my therapist calls back, goodness only knows when. I'm trying to decide if it's even worth the bother. I imagine she doesn't want to take the time to talk to my therapist until I've forked over a fee. Because otherwise I can't imagine why she wants to go through the charade of seeing me before rejecting me.
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:58:14
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
All you wanted to do was help yourself and you end up feeling bad about yourself. Something is not right here and I don't think it's with you.
I can hang with you in open and try to divert you with stories of my worst job interviews or whatever I can think of that doesn't involve therapy. Or take a nap with Harry, I think he has healing properties.
Poet
Posted by partlycloudy on September 10, 2004, at 14:18:51
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
Posted by partlycloudy on September 10, 2004, at 14:45:36
In reply to I'm in open (nm), posted by partlycloudy on September 10, 2004, at 14:18:51
Can't get the darn thing to work and I'm nervous to try it at work. I'm here, though.
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:38:44
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
hi Dinah,
I'm sorry about this muddle you're in! I have no advice to offer; just my sympathies.I had to laugh when I read the line about "running incontinently" -- now there's a mental image for you! :)
I hope that the T gives it a chance, regardless of whether or not ego states are up for discussion. Maybe it would turn out GREAT? Hopefully it can't hurt to try it, right? I suppose it COULD hurt, in the sense that you might get exhausted and mentally drained and sad...but it's something so new. I give you a lot of credit for even having the courage to pursue this! :)
I was thinking about what your T said, along the lines of "all T's need to work with full information." I might disagree with him on what constitutes full information, and when it's needed.
When you started seeing HIM, there was no previous person to sit down and share notes and impressions, right? He had to build his knowledge of you from YOU, not a notebook?
Why shouldn't this other doctor do the same thing -- build an impression of YOU from meeting you, and not allow herself to be colored by xxx's impressions (which might be highly accurate, since you've been seeing him so long, but still!)
I know that professionals don't like to work in parallel to each other without talking because they're worried, perhaps, about reaching grossly different conclusions or steering you in a different direction.
But if a person could form such a different opinion if they didn't have notes to go on, wouldn't it be worth finding that out?
This is going to be a totally different scenario, but here's an example from my life of how professional conversing "behind the scenes" can color an impression:
One time a group of us at work were interviewing new-hires in an engineering team. One manager came up to a group of us and whispered, "Oh my god! The son of XXX manager is interviewing! We should all give him special attention and really listen to what he's saying, in case XXX wants to make a fuss if we don't hire him. He's kind of stupid but XXX really wants him to have a chance. I thought he was dull and didn't show creativity." He also continued on to tell us "Oh, and the other person? YYY applicant? She's kind of unstable and I think she got a DUI once. I heard her talking to someone on the phone and it didn't sound good. Just letting you know to probe for stability and stuff when you talk to her."
Naturally I coulnd't forget these things, even though I tried! It ended up that neither of the two got hired. I'm relatively sure it's because they were not qualified, but it's possible that the 'whispers' had something to do with it.
I know that's not a direct parallel at ALL. I just think that sometimes -- when people share thoughts BEFORE allowing each to make their own assessment -- it hinders individual and creative thought.
I don't know if that made sense or if it's in any way useful...just blurting out my thoughts.
Please keep us updated!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:50:57
In reply to Re: I'm feeling sick and dizzy » Dinah, posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:38:44
hi Dinah,
me again! Hey, I truly believe that YOU are the best person capable of determining whether it's "in your best interests" to see xxx, the other T, or both.I know they obviously have your care at the top of their minds, and they want to make decisions that will help you. But still, isn't it kind of presumptuous for two people to confer and make a decision like that without including you in it? I mean, you're a fully functioning adult -- a very intelligent and insightful one -- I might add!
I know it's probable that I'm reflecting my own insecurities and neuroses onto your situation (and I'm sorry for that!) It just seems that YOU should be the one making that choice with them. Am I totally off base here? I know that the situation is probably a lot more complex than I realize, and I apologize if I'm acting callous here or brusque.
I hope this all works out for the best, whatever that situation is! :)
JenStar
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 17:48:44
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
You seem to have gone from planning to take a wonderful step to losing all confidence in it- all in 24 (or less hours)- I feel so sad to hear it. I don't think an ego state disorder is in any way a contra-indication for sex or marital therapy. I feel I'm sort of one of PB's poster girls for ego state disorders- or dissociative disorders- just because I've been trying to post honestly about it here for more than a year. During that time, my husband and I have had sex therapy -mainly, but of course not entirely, to deal with the aftermath of his surgery and radiation for prostate cancer. It helped us a LOT, and. I think the thing about ego state disorders is that you have hidden, mostly unconscious cut-off feeling states from childhood. In day-to-day life, they don't ever make you seem like *another* person. I'm considered very reliable- always the *same*, almost to a fault, by the people who know me best. But inside, the feeling states are disconnected from one another- and from the adult conscious me. They cause me to often feel fearful and sad; it takes a lot of energy to keep them out of consciousness- all of my therapy is aimed at getting them into consciouness, and also truly validated by my analyst. That seems to be the key to having them become more integrated with *me*, and to get to where they stop causing so much pain. But, getting back to the sex therapy, my ego state disorder didn't interfere one bit with it- we benefitted tremendously as a couple and are extremely happy to have done it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't explore getting the kind of individual therapy you want. I actually can't understand your T's viewpoint on it at all. I hope you'll continue to be guided by your own intuition on what's best for you. Maybe two years ago, when I first met you here, it would have been too early to do it, but you've changed a LOT since then. How can it possibly hurt to try? From experience, I can tell you that the good sex therapists are very respectful of their clients; they go slowly and carefully, and pay a lot of attention to everyone's individual situations and realities
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 19:03:11
In reply to Re: I'm feeling sick and dizzy » JenStar, posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:50:57
I had Dr. Bob remove the name I accidentally revealed in my post. I hope you don't mind. :)
I understand my therapist's point, because he's doing a careful balancing act. He's aware that there's a fair amount of internal conflict over the topic of sex in general and going to a sex therapist in particular. So he's trying to protect me and at the same time validate any steps forward I want to make. I don't make his job easy.
He was in favor of it last night, but after hearing more, he just didn't think this was the right time.
I'm more than a bit angry, even though I understand the difficult position he's in. He says he would feel obligated to tell the other therapist that there was a significant degree of internal conflict. So what he says is going to come across as sounding like a thumbs down. She's not willing to see me without speaking to him. She actually said that at the beginning, too, although then she was talking about speaking to him at some point. Now that point is now. I can't imagine that she would be willing to go forward if he thinks it's not a good idea.
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