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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 22 to 46 of 53. Go back in thread:
Posted by lucy stone on September 2, 2004, at 8:37:37
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » lucy stone, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 0:20:35
Well, I'm not doing a "standard, traditional" analysis. I am doing a modern analysis. My analyst says that the only people he knows that do more than one analysis are ones that did a traditional one the first time. It's just that I do not think that my analyst believes that everyone has dissociated states. I suspect that he would say that some people have them but everyone. I think I will ask him about this today, I am interested in his response. I have talked here about what I call the "other Lucy", which is the public face I use in stressful situations, but when I talk use that term with my analyst, he always brings me back to what I am doing, why I need to act in a different way in stressful situations, what I need to do to use my authentic self at those times. It is indeed interesting how different approaches for for different people, and how important it is for a patient and therapist to be a good match.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:36:35
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on September 1, 2004, at 22:05:54
Gotta go shoe shopping, Daisy. Do what works!
The are a medium heel with a center seam on the toe with contrast stitching. Not too pointy but stylish.Take care, sweets!
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:49:47
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 22:36:39
Pfinstegg,
> She doesn't speak yet, but she does speak in dreams. In them, she has rearranged the analyst's office, bringing in her favorite toys and animals from her childhood, changed the couch to a different location, etc. Then she said, "OK! Now I'm at home. Now I can tell you things, and it will help me a lot". And she does, a bit more, each day.That is such a sweet image. Thank you for sharing it.
>
> I never thought of myself as having any kind of ego state or dissociative disorder! It's so easy to have one and not know it! Do you think other people here might have them, but that their therapists don't work in that way, and so they don't find out? I've always wondered about that, as I think it's just you and me who write about it.I had an experience recently when I was meditating about a metaphor for my pain. It included a volcano (don't ask!) and as I was sitting there, all of a sudden, my five year old self came up and tried to pull me away, saying "You'll get in trouble." I did the same thing you did...I sat with her and stroked her hair and told her things would be okay. I told my T about it because it was a bit freaky to me. I was concerned that it meant that my ego was fragmenting rather than getting stronger. He never mentioned disorder and actually believed it was good progress. That I was able to parent the child me that did not get that caring and nurturing in the past.
Now he doesn't work to try to talk to her, although he did mention we could analyze why it was that age, why she looked like she did, etc. But he focused on the self-soothing aspect and seemed pleased.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 10:07:15
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 1:33:08
Posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:00:24
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
Wow! This thread took off in no time, and I have so much to say. I really want to respond to everyone, but I have such little time.
So, as my T would encourage, I will just say what is on the forefront of my mind and that is the issue of my T advocating for young Aphrodite. The two child-like ego states that are wounded and frightened and need a lot of support need therapy. However, the adult, who foolishly thinks she's just fine, has to bring them. My T, then, has the difficult balancing act of helping the children without offending the adult me or causing me to flee. If he didn't address my younger parts, I would have left a long time ago and still carried the sadness of abuse and neglect with me.
My point is that it has nothing to do with therapeutic orientation. In order to literally save my adult life, he has to address the younger lives.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:15:26
In reply to Yikes! I'm late!, posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:00:24
I'm hoping the subject isn't closed. :)
"However, the adult, who foolishly thinks she's just fine, has to bring them. "
That statement made me snort diet coke out my nose. It's soooo much the way I think. :)
I was trying unsuccessfully last night to say some of what you said. I finally gave up without posting. I understand that therapists have to be careful about creating ego states. But if something already exists, ignoring it or treating it like it's a shameful thing can't possibly be helpful. If my therapist had refused to speak to my emotional self, or punished me overtly or covertly for speaking, I would have stopped speaking, but I wouldn't have disappeared. It probably would have been immensely harmful in that I would have gotten pretty rage-filled and self destructive at this new sign that I wasn't acceptable.
As it was, I had to talk around the subject for years because my therapist (tho he didn't say anything) was clearly uncomfortable with the concept. I think he was afraid of creating alters or escalating the number or something. I had to pretty directly confront him with how difficult his reluctance was making therapy for me before I was able to be really open with him. So he clearly didn't create anything in me. But thank G*d he didn't try to "discourage" me either.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 11:34:09
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by lucy stone on September 2, 2004, at 8:37:37
You are right. I misspoke. I didn't mean to say you are having a "standard, traditional" analysis; I was trying to say, rather, that I think you are having a modern, interactive,more usual form of analysis because childhood sexual and physical abuse are probably not issues in your past. If they are, I would be wrong on that, too, but I don't think you have mentioned them. Therefore, the question of dissociation would not come up. I am the one having a slightly unusual analysis by an analyst who sees mostly people who have serious abuse issues. I think everyone who speaks here of having some degree of dissociation- not to an obvious degree, like in DID, but to some degree, unconsciously, has a history of abuse in their pasts,
Posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:39:12
In reply to Re: Not late!! » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:15:26
I never pictured you as someone snorting coke, but you just never know about people:)
I think you hit the mark about any dismissal of these other states setting off destructive thoughts or behaviors. I know that one of my adult parts, a very crictical one, can be very abusive to the little girl. If my T dismissed the little girl, he would be collaborating with this abusive adult who would lash out at her in anger and embarrassment.
Have you ever considered, Dinah, how far along you've brought your T professionally? Think of how many "emotional" sides of others he can now address because he understands. You should get some free sessions or something.
I feel like I'm training my T sometimes. I think I can be quite a challenge:) I have only one friend who knows about therapy because she is a former therapist. She swears up and down he must be writing a paper, if not a book, on me.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:43:06
In reply to Re: Not late!! » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 11:15:26
I have a "life history" summary I wrote for my therapist shortly after starting therapy. Probably three or so months in, around the time therapy stopped focusing completely on "The Anxiety and Phobia Workbook".
In it, in highly coded language, it is clear that everything I believe about myself now, I believed then - but with less understanding and different words. For instance then I wrote something like "So during my time of difficulties as a young adolescent, after a year in therapy, and being unhappy with my life as it had become, and realizing that my behavior was not getting me what I wanted, I stopped. I stopped being crazy. I stopped misbehaving. I came up with socially acceptable reasons for avoiding situations that I wanted to avoid. I became what others wanted me to be. I sat back in amazement as I watched everyone believe that I was ok." Things like that. There is nothing inconsistent in my early reporting of what happened and either of my later theories of what happened. One is that the flawed emotional Dinah went into hiding at age thirteen or so, hurt and angry that no one noticed, and let a false front interact with the world. And that the false front eventually developed the delusion that it was real, and developed a limited range of emotions so that it could operate independently. The other theory is that the rational Dinah took what it wanted from the raw material, concentrated on will and intellect, and left what it didn't want behind, where it somehow managed to survive on its own (and without anything worthwhile because anything worthwhile had been stripped). Guess which theory belongs to each ego state? :P
There is also reference in that very early history to what could possibly be a third ego state and what I have always referred to as an alien being who took over my body in tenth and twelth grades. I have *always*, even in eleventh grade, referred to this stranger as Happy Dinah. But there just isn't enough evidence to tell whether it represents a third ego state or not. If so, it's probably where any sexuality I might posess resides.
So if it ever occurs to me that my therapist encouraged the creation of ego states, I look back to this writing which was done when my therapist had no influence over me whatsoever, and when I still had no idea what was going on in my innards.
Posted by Dinah on September 2, 2004, at 12:00:30
In reply to Re: Not late!! » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:39:12
Well, my therapist did enough work with DID, then MPD, back when it was more accepted to make him fairly well qualified at working with ego states. Actually, I think it left him gunshy from being overwhelmed. I think that's why he discouraged my talk of different parts when it first came up.
Of course, I don't have DID, and my ego arrangement, however unconventional, is very stable. I have never had any additional ego states beyond the two (or possibly three) that I always had some sort of awareness of on some level, however well hidden.
So I may have educated him, but it's about phenomenon lower on the dissociative scale than what he already had familiarity with, and if the writing on the subject has any validity, I'm not sure what he's learned will apply to anyone but me. :( I just don't "fit" anywhere.
Even to not having a history of abuse.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 12:30:39
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by gardenergirl on September 2, 2004, at 9:49:47
That's such a warm image. It sounds as though, occasionally, different *parts* do come up in your therapy and life. My analyst is very much like yours- he considers mental events like that as signs of more cohesion and health, rather than the opposite. And mine, like yours, emphasizes the comforting aspects of dealing with the parts- both the adult me comforting the child, and him comforting her. It's not the only thing that happens in analysis, either- it's interwoven with so many thoughts, memories and feelings from every stage of my life, which seem to be pouring out faster and faster, as my inhibitions and defenses decrease.
Are you really thinking of termination so soon? You've only been going about a year, haven't you?
Posted by daisym on September 2, 2004, at 18:58:25
In reply to Yikes! I'm late!, posted by Aphrodite on September 2, 2004, at 11:00:24
>>>However, the adult, who foolishly thinks she's just fine, has to bring them. My T, then, has the difficult balancing act of helping the children without offending the adult me or causing me to flee.
Exactly! We talked about this some more today. Because the adult still thinks it is really dangerous to let someone be this important to you. But he reminded me (again) that I have a strong core which has been gradually been adding supports over the past few months. So even though I don't think so, he isn't indispensible. But he acknowledge that my kid self doesn't believe that and doesn't really need to. Sort of like when kids think they will never want to move out.
I'm interested in how we get our adult selves to not be so harsh with the younger selves. I've been told to try to remember that "she" was just a child and couldn't do anything to protect herself. But I find it so hard to believe. And I'm pretty tired of all her sadness.
We also agreed today to take a break from the memories for a while. So we didn't talk about them specifically yesterday or today...and I don't see him again until Wednesday. I can feel my youngerself quietly freaking out...but I'm shushing her. (and no, she can't call either...)
Posted by shrinking violet on September 2, 2004, at 19:47:35
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
>>So do you think that was a strange thing to ask?
I haven't yet read the responses, so forgive me if I have missed anything that may have developed.
I think that was a GREAT thing to ask, and your T's response was perfect. I haven't asked my T that particular question, but we've talked about our relationship. I think *she* views it as "genuine, caring, and real" which were her words, but I tend to push it off and minimize it as "just" therapeutic. As far as I go, I'm not sure whether she truly understands how important she is to me, and our relationship...it's kind of weird, because whenever I try to convey how upset/sad/distressed I'll be when we terminate (prematurely, as I can't see her anymore once I graduate) she tends to get uncomfortable. I think she wants reassurances that she won't hurt me in any way, as I think that idea tends to get her anxious. So, in short, I think she knows she is very important to me, BUT she doesn't want the relationship to be so intense or hurtful that it ends up hurting me in some way (which, in my opinion, is inevitable). Since that's the case, I'm going to try to keep my feelings about it to myself until we get closer to the end, then I'll probably be a crumbling heap in the corner of her office. *sigh*
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 0:08:45
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » gardenergirl, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 12:30:39
Your therapist sounds great. It sounds like you are in a quite active place right now. I would love to be a fly on the wall in an analysis. I don't know if I would ever have the stamina to undergo the training, but there is a lot about the model that appeals to me.
My T brought up termination a couple of sessions ago. He said I appeared to be showing a "hallmark" of entering the termination phase. That is that I am less resistant of being open and talking about memories and thoughts and more resistant to the idea of giving up my dependence on him and on a few other significant people. I can see what he meant, as we were talking about the conflict between desiring someone to take care of me...what was it called? The Golden myth or fantasy? (gotta read that book someday!!!) and seeing the benefits of being independent or interdependent. For once, the idea of termination didn't scare the pants off of me (now there's an image....).
However, termination will take awhile. It's a phase of the therapy, and I expect it could take several months, if not the entire year I am still able to see him before I graduate (Crosses herself). Of course I just had to drop a doorknob bomb as I was wrapping up the session before last, which in some ways may be a resistance to termination on my part, or may be, as Daisy has suggested in another thread, the last big thing I need to work on. So I feel more in the middle phase again. We'll see...
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 0:09:24
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » gardenergirl, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 12:30:39
Your therapist sounds great. It sounds like you are in a quite active place right now. I would love to be a fly on the wall in an analysis. I don't know if I would ever have the stamina to undergo the training, but there is a lot about the model that appeals to me.
My T brought up termination a couple of sessions ago. He said I appeared to be showing a "hallmark" of entering the termination phase. That is that I am less resistant of being open and talking about memories and thoughts and more resistant to the idea of giving up my dependence on him and on a few other significant people. I can see what he meant, as we were talking about the conflict between desiring someone to take care of me...what was it called? The Golden myth or fantasy? (gotta read that book someday!!!) and seeing the benefits of being independent or interdependent. For once, the idea of termination didn't scare the pants off of me (now there's an image....).
However, termination will take awhile. It's a phase of the therapy, and I expect it could take several months, if not the entire year I am still able to see him before I graduate (Crosses herself). Of course I just had to drop a doorknob bomb as I was wrapping up the session before last, which in some ways may be a resistance to termination on my part, or may be, as Daisy has suggested in another thread, the last big thing I need to work on. So I feel more in the middle phase again. We'll see...
Take care,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 0:13:32
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » Pfinstegg, posted by gardenergirl on September 3, 2004, at 0:09:24
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 3, 2004, at 7:10:47
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important they » lucy stone, posted by Pfinstegg on September 2, 2004, at 11:34:09
I find that it hurts me that, after pointing out in a rather critical manner an error in my attempt to communicate with you, and after I acknowledge my (slight) misstatement, and try to write my thoughts more accurately, you do not reply to me. This has happened at least twice; it hurt more this last time because it appears to be an on-going pattern. Part of the hurt is the gradual realization on my part that while, as the only two persons in analysis posting on this board, I have made several empathic and supportive comments to you, and had hoped that we would together be able to let more people know what a powerful and life-transforming experience analysis can be, your comments, which appear directed to me although there is never a name on them, appear completely void of similiar positive thoughts or feelings. Once it is clear to me what feelings people are expressing towards me here, I never read their posts again if they do not contain at least some positive, helpful, or empathic ones.
Posted by lucy stone on September 3, 2004, at 8:45:18
In reply to not replying- lucy stone, posted by Pfinstegg on September 3, 2004, at 7:10:47
> I find that it hurts me that, after pointing out in a rather critical manner an error in my attempt to communicate with you, and after I acknowledge my (slight) misstatement, and try to write my thoughts more accurately, you do not reply to me. This has happened at least twice; it hurt more this last time because it appears to be an on-going pattern. Part of the hurt is the gradual realization on my part that while, as the only two persons in analysis posting on this board, I have made several empathic and supportive comments to you, and had hoped that we would together be able to let more people know what a powerful and life-transforming experience analysis can be, your comments, which appear directed to me although there is never a name on them, appear completely void of similiar positive thoughts or feelings. Once it is clear to me what feelings people are expressing towards me here, I never read their posts again if they do not contain at least some positive, helpful, or empathic ones.
Pfinstegg, I am sorry that you are hurt by my non-reply. If I am reading your post correctly, you feel that I didn't reply because I am deliberately ignoring you. I am sorry that you fell that way. The reality is that I sometimes take a very long time to reply to posts because I want to think carefully on my answer and make sure I am saying what I want to say. I have been doing that in this thread because I think I am a bit conflicted about the topic. I don't think I believe that everyone has dissociated states or different ego states, not even all people who have been abused. I don't think my analyst thinks that, and I wanted to ask him yesterday but we were too busy talking about other issues to get to it. I don't think I know enough to get in an intelligent discussion about it, and I don't want to hurt inadvertently with a post. I think it is better for me to remain silent than to post an ignorant and inadvertantly hurtful comment. Also, I have a very busy life like many people do. I can occaisionally look at posts at work but don't often have time to reply. Yesterday I was out of my house from 7 AM until 10 PM, and didn't have time to post here. Again, I am sorry if you felt I was deliberatly not answering you. As for analysis, it has been a very powerful experience for me and it is life-transforming, but I hesitate to post that. Analysis is not for everyone and not everyone can be helped by it. A more complicated issue is that the vast majority of people will not have the time or money to undergo an analysis. My insurance pays for 24 visits a year, which I use up in six weeks of 4 times/week analysis. I pay the remainder of the costs out of my pocket. I think there are very, very few posters here who could pay for 4 therapy sessions a week! Doing an analysis with someone in training is an option for some, but in my medium sized city there is no analytic training institute so that is just not on option here. There are 6 working analysts in my metropolitin area of over 1 million, so access is also limited in that way. There is also the time factor. I work for my husband and he is very supportive of my analysis. I work part time in order to allow me to leave 4 times a week and go to sessions. Sometimes when I come back I have to close my office door for the remainder of the day and work in privacy because I don't trust myself to be around people. The whole red, swollen eye thinng, you know. My husband understands why I do that, but it wouldn't be possible in losts of other work settings. I just feel very uncomfortable telling people that analysis is wonderful (it is, for me), knowing that many will never have the opportunity to do it. I probably deliberately downplay my positive feelings about analysis primarily for that reason. I'm sorry again if I hurt you, that was not by intention.
Posted by Poet on September 3, 2004, at 12:39:05
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
Hi Daisy,
I don't think it's a strange question.
My therapist does understand how important she is to me. I have trouble letting anyone get close to me and it's an issue that's tough to work on because that closeness includes my therapist. When I just sit and stare at her and apologize for being a therapy failure, she reminds me that she isn't going anywhere and won't abandon me.
I think what you and your therapist talked about will make the relationship stronger. You weren't questioning his professionalism, you just needed assurance of his compassion. Nothing wrong with that.
Poet
Posted by pantt on September 4, 2004, at 16:34:29
In reply to Re: Does your Therapist understand how important t » daisym, posted by Poet on September 3, 2004, at 12:39:05
How can you ever be brave enough to let someone be that important to such vulnerable parts of yourself?
I'm terrifed he'll die and I'll be left alone and in a heap of pieces with no way to go back and then I'll get mine for ever trusting anyone.
So we talk about the weather I guess.
There's a Nancy Griffin song
If I promise not to cry
Will you look me in the eye
And tell me that you've known me?
I was your late your lonely child
I am enhanced by all you've shown me
....And will you sing this song again?
Let us sing it hand in hand
While the band is still playing
Before the light can loose your hand
Before I lose my voice again
Let us sing it while it's playingI kept hearing that song and feeling quite moved by it. But I read the liner notes and it's about her mother dying of Alzheimer's. And yet isn't that what I wanted from a therapist to be known...for someone to hear my voice. But sometimes I wonder if he ever really heard me anyway then what a fool I've been and how could I ever try again or how could I even survive in a world where I could misjudge someone so gravely??
And what if you run out of money will they care then or will it all end as they show you out the door naked and defenseless?
and that's why i'm watching the weather channel before i go into see him.
Posted by lucy stone on September 4, 2004, at 18:02:26
In reply to Are you ever afraid your therapists will die?, posted by pantt on September 4, 2004, at 16:34:29
I am sometimes afraid that my T will die, not so much so now as in the beginning. Then, I used to be terrifed when he went on vacation, that he would fall off the mountain or drown in the river or something (he fly fishes). We would talk about it, and he said that if something happened to him I should immediately call his partner, that she would know what to do to help me. Does your T have a plan for his patients if something did happen to him? Maybe you should talk to him about this. If he knew there was a plan to have someone care for you if something happened to him it might make you feel a bit better. The money is a harder issue in some ways. After all, that is how they make their living and supplying therapy for free for specific patients is a boundadry crossing. I have asked my T what would happen if I could no longer afford to see him, and says that we would work something out...not sure what that means, though.
Posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:22:28
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid your therapists will die?, posted by lucy stone on September 4, 2004, at 18:02:26
I don't think he has any kind of plan. He doesn't have a partner. He said if he died his receptionist would call me and I could go the funeral if I wanted to ( I asked him about that). He laughed when I asked if I could throw myself on the coffin weeping and scream at his wife that he really loved me best and that sort of ended the conversation. I think talking about his own death made him uncomfortable as is natural but I'm a pretty primitive person sometimes
I'll probably die first although he's older.
He'll see me as long as I want no matter what the money situation. He was criticized for that by someone I saw briefly but I don't think that is a boundary crossing really. It's just always been that way. I don't think I'm being infantalized I all ready am a huge confused finacially unendowed infant. If that changes I will be glad to pay him.
> I am sometimes afraid that my T will die, not so much so now as in the beginning. Then, I used to be terrifed when he went on vacation, that he would fall off the mountain or drown in the river or something (he fly fishes). We would talk about it, and he said that if something happened to him I should immediately call his partner, that she would know what to do to help me. Does your T have a plan for his patients if something did happen to him? Maybe you should talk to him about this. If he knew there was a plan to have someone care for you if something happened to him it might make you feel a bit better. The money is a harder issue in some ways. After all, that is how they make their living and supplying therapy for free for specific patients is a boundadry crossing. I have asked my T what would happen if I could no longer afford to see him, and says that we would work something out...not sure what that means, though.
Posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:28:38
In reply to Re: Are you ever afraid your therapists will die? » lucy stone, posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:22:28
My new imaginary friend says I'm being a little hard on myself here so I guess I should add that I'm not always primitive I'm not ever a huge infant etc. I got a late start in life and I'm having a hard time catching up.
Posted by Susan47 on September 6, 2004, at 20:54:21
In reply to Does your Therapist understand how important they, posted by daisym on September 1, 2004, at 20:17:56
I just caught up with this thread. The conversations you're having with your therapist are beautiful. :()
Posted by B2chica on September 7, 2004, at 12:55:51
In reply to Are you ever afraid your therapists will die?, posted by pantt on September 4, 2004, at 16:34:29
YES!!!
my problem is i think that the more i see him, his odds of dying are worse. i feel that cuz he's seeing me, something awful will happen to him. that i'm a sort of jinx. that because of me he will die.
...hmmm, maybe that's part of why i don't talk, maybe that's why i'm constantly wanting to stop seeing him?
oh well.
but yes, i am terrified that something horrible will happen to him.
it was worse in the beginning, but on lessened from constant fear and blame to "mostly" constant fear and blame....hmmm.
ok, not much improvement but this thread has made me think, and maybe i need to talk to him about this again.
thanks.
b2c.
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