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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Miss Honeychurch, posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 21:19:40
Rigby,
My thoughts are mixed on this. I think asking the last name might be going a little too far. It seems like it made you uncomfortable, and that, like others said, is a sign to pay attention to. I suppose there are times, though that I have been curious, and perhaps it just got the best of her?Regarding her saying she thinks about you outside of therapy...I don't know if I would tell a client that. But, I do think of clients outside of therapy. It's hard not to, when you love what you do and are stimulated by it. Also if you are still learning, which I think a good T is always doing. That said, I don't think I would frame it like she did. If I had a specific thought I wanted to share with the client, I might say something like "I got to thinking about you and ....". To keep it more focused and specific.
Now, I just have to share an experience I had with my advisor at school that your post reminded me of and perhaps speaks to the dangers of sharing outside life with clients. My advisor told me once when we were having some boundary issues ourselves that he does a lot of his best thinking while in the shower. He then proceeded to tell me an insight he had about our working relationship and recent problems. OMG! He was thinking of me while he was in the shower! was all I could think. Ewwww, the visual image!
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 22:50:57
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
Posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 22:56:03
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
The thought of my ex-T in the shower just sends me. I'm sick and he's gorgeous. Life.
Posted by steelmagnolia25 on August 21, 2004, at 20:49:47
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
> My advisor told me once when we were having some boundary issues ourselves that he does a lot of his best thinking while in the shower. He then proceeded to tell me an insight he had about our working relationship and recent problems. OMG! He was thinking of me while he was in the shower! was all I could think. Ewwww, the visual image!
>
>I echo OMG! I had a somewhat related conversation with my ex-T. He told me once that he "takes me home with him" when we were discussing his feelings for me. A few sessions later I told him that I would prefer that he only use direct statements with minimal ambiguity because I hate guessing what he means. He asked for an example, so I said, "When you said you take me home with you, does that mean you think about me during off-hours with a normal therapist's concern, or are you thinking of me while you're in the shower?" Well, to be honest it might have been a bit more bawdy than that, but fortunately, we both got a good laugh out of it, and he clarified that he wasn't referring to his shower!
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:11:46
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by lucy stone on August 20, 2004, at 13:59:39
Hi Lucy,
Thanks for your response. Yeah, I think that asking the therapist's name wasnt' a huge, huge deal but I think it just triggered her boundary stuff from way back more than anything. And she immediately brought it up this past week so I didn't even need to so that was a good catch on her end.
But yeah, I do think the, "I think about you alot" as an example of her admitting that she bends rules was and is a bit odd. I guess it's okay--as long as her extreme interest helps me I'm okay with it. She has told me that she has a therapist and somewhere along the line I think she said something about her discussing this with this person so she does get some level of supervision or advise from someone else (a good thing.)
When she instantly responded that I wanted this guy to fall in love with me it just seemed so hair-trigger. I dunno. Maybe she is empathizing but it felt like her emotions--her own emotions--were involved. Just a vibe but it makes me think. She then said, "Now that you've landed your prey, what are you going to do with him?" and I thought that was pretty nasty--like I'm some sorta black widow spider (yuck!)
We've discussed some of the stuff already, like boundary violations. We've talked about her life in parallel with mine. Note: she doesn't self-disclose left and right but I was referred to her by a friend who was roommates with her so I know a few details--not a lot but some basics. And I found this website an ex-boyfriend put up about her so I've got that info too which has been very strange (be careful what you Google.)
I guess though, on the whole, she does have my best interests at heart. I do think she struggles though with making sure she keeps her boundaries clear with me and I don't know why (her stuff.)
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:19:48
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Rigby, posted by tabitha on August 20, 2004, at 14:29:29
Hi Tabitha,
Thanks for writing.
She did apologize for this pretty quickly so that was cool. And it did feel a bit gossipy but not horrible or anything. To me the worst was that it triggered my feelings of how poorly therapy went for me in the beginning--and how my therapist messed up her boundaries before.
We did talk about how her remark triggered me to think back on my therapy. I guess what I didn't talk about was exactly what I'm saying to you about boundaries. She was inconsistent; she got overly involved and admitted this--that I'd drawn her in and she was in too deep. Then she pulled way back, was as cold as she was warm and I reeled from that for a while. I finally was able to actually make some great progress from her doing that but maybe that was more like making lemonade from lemons than great therapy. Hmmm...
> I would be bothered by her wanting to know the full name of the therapist and commenting on it. I talk about a therapist friend sometime and I'm careful to never mention his full name. The sessions are supposed to be about me-- it seems like telling real names of other therapists would turn it into gossip somehow. People have different ideas about boundaries. Maybe it would be useful to tell her how you felt about this.
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:32:29
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 20, 2004, at 17:31:52
Hi Miss HC,
Yeah, I also thought it was a tad bit creepy. Especially in the context of finding an example for me of how she bends rules. To me it meant that she herself thinks it's unusual or something to be thinking about a particular client as much as she does.
My gut feel is, as you say, that I'm questioning her boundaries because there is reason to. I think she has to be effortful to do that with me for whatever reason. Part of me just really wants to ask her what the deal is. I wonder if she'd answer honestly.
> The comment about how she thinks a lot about you seems worrisome to me. While it may feel good to hear her say that, it is not professional. I also don't think she should be talking about rule bending.
>
> Before my current T, I saw a LCSW for a while and she treated me more like a girlfriend than a client. I really disliked that. I knew I needed strict boundaries and a relationship which was very professional. Others appreciate less strict boundaries and it works for them. So this is just my opinion.
>
> To me, when boundaries are crossed and rules are "bent", the therapy is no longer all about you.
>
> I have also learned that if you have to question something about boundaries, that usually means they have been crossed and the therapeutic frame has been compromised.
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:36:03
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by shrinking violet on August 20, 2004, at 18:57:20
Hi SV,
I think if a therapist says that they think of you it's one thing. I think that because my therapist gave me this as an example of her rule-bending for me, well, that's another deal. Like I've said in the other posts though, I think generally she's pretty good but I'm gun-shy given what happened in the beginning with her.
Thanks for your response!
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:40:56
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 20, 2004, at 20:33:11
Hi Susan,
I agree--I don't think she's trying to harm me or anything and I do think she has my best interests at heart so it's not a dumb opinion at all!!
Thanks for responding!
Posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:49:02
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by gardenergirl on August 20, 2004, at 22:46:55
GG,
Sometimes I just wonder about her. Like I feel like she's following my story like you'd follow a soap opera (and god knows my life has been a pretty major soap opera lately) and it just seems like she says she has a problem sometimes remembering stuff but she knows every freaking detail and every name and everything I've said and every tiny incident I've mentioned. It's hard to describe but I sort of wonder if therapists get more interested in the "story" and get sidetracked there vs. helping the client?
Granted, I will come in there with a bunch of stuff that's happened and it *really* is like a drama unfolding. So maybe it's my fault or something. I'm not, however, trying to entertain her either. It's my life that's unfolding or unraveling or whatever.
Maybe I wonder if she's helping me that much lately gather insights. Maybe it's that answers are so hard to come by and I expect her to give me some or help me to guide me to some and lately I've not seen that.
Thanks for listening and for your response. And yeah, the visual of your therapist in the shower, assuming he's not exactly your type, is, well, a tad off-putting!!
> My thoughts are mixed on this. I think asking the last name might be going a little too far. It seems like it made you uncomfortable, and that, like others said, is a sign to pay attention to. I suppose there are times, though that I have been curious, and perhaps it just got the best of her?
>
> Regarding her saying she thinks about you outside of therapy...I don't know if I would tell a client that. But, I do think of clients outside of therapy. It's hard not to, when you love what you do and are stimulated by it. Also if you are still learning, which I think a good T is always doing. That said, I don't think I would frame it like she did. If I had a specific thought I wanted to share with the client, I might say something like "I got to thinking about you and ....". To keep it more focused and specific.
>
> Now, I just have to share an experience I had with my advisor at school that your post reminded me of and perhaps speaks to the dangers of sharing outside life with clients. My advisor told me once when we were having some boundary issues ourselves that he does a lot of his best thinking while in the shower. He then proceeded to tell me an insight he had about our working relationship and recent problems. OMG! He was thinking of me while he was in the shower! was all I could think. Ewwww, the visual image!
>
> Take care,
> gg
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:00:09
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » lucy stone, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:11:46
When you said this, She then said, "Now that you've landed your prey, what are you going to do with him?" I was shocked to think any therapist talks that way. I wonder what part of her *that* was from.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:09:16
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » gardenergirl, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:49:02
Rigby it sounds like you don't trust your therapist.. it sounds like you're going through some of the stuff I did in therapy. What's the very first thing she ever did, do you remember, that made her seem compromised to you? 'Cause I can remember with mine.
Posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 19:35:07
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » gardenergirl, posted by Rigby on August 22, 2004, at 12:49:02
You know, the way you describe your take on her reactions, it almosts sounds like maybe she is getting something out of your life vicariously? Her reaction to the new love is also a bit like that, or just projection on her part. I think your gut is telling you something, just not sure what.
Oh, and it was my advisor from school (boss, supervisor at one point, and now dissertation chair), not my therapist. Shoot, now I have an image of my T in the shower! Neither one is my type at all. ewwwww.
:)
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 1:09:16
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Rigby, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:09:16
I can't remember the first incident but there were plenty of them. The one I do remember though was when she said something like there being no way around how she felt about me--that I was special to her. She said she didn't have what she had with me with her other clients. When I asked what she meant she said she had more distance. She then pointed out some stuff I'd given her--a plant and a book. I said those were representative of my work in therapy. She said, "But you gave them to me!" (Bizarro.) After me being wigged out about it, finally, months later she apologized, saying she was on prednisone and it made her very wired and although she didn't take any of it back she did say she shouldn't have said it. She said that perhaps I didn't do well knowing how she really felt (I had wanted to know how she felt and when she finally told me it felt unsafe.) What did yours do?
> Rigby it sounds like you don't trust your therapist.. it sounds like you're going through some of the stuff I did in therapy. What's the very first thing she ever did, do you remember, that made her seem compromised to you? 'Cause I can remember with mine.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:23:10
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 1:09:16
Stared at body parts he probably shouldn't have. I understand men looking at women. I looked at his beautiful ass too. But I did it when his back was turned. Hmhm. He made a display of himself looking at parts of me. I don't know, maybe it was just honesty? But I read facial expressions, it's what I do. And he was in fantasyland.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:26:19
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 1:09:16
Rigby,
It sounds like your poor (and I say that consciously) therapist needs something from you. In a normal human relationship that's probably not unhealthy. Is it unhealthy in a therapeutic relationship? Can anybody answer this?
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 10:58:49
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:23:10
Wow. This is messed up. Are you still seeing him? Sorry--I haven't followed your story if it's on here!
I felt sexual chemistry with my therapist for a while but when I stopped feeling that way I stopped interpreting things that way or looking for it. So it could be a mix of what you feel/want and partly what he's feeling. Things look different though when you're not attracted. Are you still attracted to him?
> Stared at body parts he probably shouldn't have. I understand men looking at women. I looked at his beautiful ass too. But I did it when his back was turned. Hmhm. He made a display of himself looking at parts of me. I don't know, maybe it was just honesty? But I read facial expressions, it's what I do. And he was in fantasyland.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:39:32
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 10:58:49
but I have to ask, are you male or female?
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 11:44:15
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:39:32
I'm female. And I've been gay most of my adult life and in fact am in a long-term relationship with another woman. However, and I think due to therapy opening me up, I've become extremely attracted to a guy. My therapist was lesbian for a while, like for all of her 20s, somehow "switched" and ended up marrying a guy.
I am sleeping with this guy and am open with my partner about it. We're trying to work through this.
For me this is a hugely unexpected and complicated turn of events. This is why now, more than ever, I need her to not screw up with me.
> but I have to ask, are you male or female?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:50:24
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 10:58:49
I felt like he'd violated my trust when I saw him looking that way; however I could never tell him that, and part of me wanted to respond to what I was interpreting, and it did. But when I told him that and he actually seemed happy about it, I totally shut down. I became paranoid, schizo, anxious. Afraid. Distrustful. But I couldn't stop seeing him, I needed his unconditional positive regard. So I think subconsciously, I decided I could make him (a) see me as a person, not an object (at this point I'd decided he does this to every female who walks into his office), and (b) if he ended up disliking me in the process, so be it.
I worked really hard at making myself unlikable. I phoned his f***ing answering machine sometimes 30 times a day, every time I thought I had an insight. I worked really hard on getting insights, too, so I wouldn't need him anymore.
I mean, here was this beautiful person who saw me as a *thing*! I'm a person too, just like you, look into my *eyes*!
It was so so hard. I remember once when I was making a call to his machine, someone said "Leave that poor man alone" and my reply was "He deserves it!". I really felt that way. I really wanted him to learn to care about *me* not my physical appearance. Although I understand that my physical appearance showed signs of my mental life too. Ah. This gets so complicated. But I know I've got it figured properly, at least so far as my own motivations were concerned.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:53:11
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 11:44:15
Life sounds really exciting for you right now. I thought you were female, but your writing aura was male. I was really attracted to that aura. I find the females on here are for the most part really spiritually lovely and intelligent people who don't seem to be afraid to meet the truth either in themselves or others. I really like that.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:55:43
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 11:44:15
Okay, in light of what you said about your therapist being lesbian for a while, then marrying a guy, that changes everything. Now everything you've said about her therapeutic relationship with you and your feelings around that seems more focussed.
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:07:32
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Rigby, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:50:24
So do you still see him then? It sounds like a mix of how he really acted perhaps and also your past experience with men? In either case, it sounds like you saw to it that you would benefit from this experience and did it--good for you!!!
> I felt like he'd violated my trust when I saw him looking that way; however I could never tell him that, and part of me wanted to respond to what I was interpreting, and it did. But when I told him that and he actually seemed happy about it, I totally shut down. I became paranoid, schizo, anxious. Afraid. Distrustful. But I couldn't stop seeing him, I needed his unconditional positive regard. So I think subconsciously, I decided I could make him (a) see me as a person, not an object (at this point I'd decided he does this to every female who walks into his office), and (b) if he ended up disliking me in the process, so be it.
> I worked really hard at making myself unlikable. I phoned his f***ing answering machine sometimes 30 times a day, every time I thought I had an insight. I worked really hard on getting insights, too, so I wouldn't need him anymore.
> I mean, here was this beautiful person who saw me as a *thing*! I'm a person too, just like you, look into my *eyes*!
> It was so so hard. I remember once when I was making a call to his machine, someone said "Leave that poor man alone" and my reply was "He deserves it!". I really felt that way. I really wanted him to learn to care about *me* not my physical appearance. Although I understand that my physical appearance showed signs of my mental life too. Ah. This gets so complicated. But I know I've got it figured properly, at least so far as my own motivations were concerned.
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:10:28
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:55:43
When you say more focused, what does that mean to you? Does it seem weird that my life would parallel her's like this?
> Okay, in light of what you said about your therapist being lesbian for a while, then marrying a guy, that changes everything. Now everything you've said about her therapeutic relationship with you and your feelings around that seems more focussed.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:13:46
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:10:28
No, weird isn't a word I want to use. Honestly, I wonder whether your therapist identifies very strongly with you and is having a problem with that.
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