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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 9:34:38
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 9:00:02
It sounds encouraging for you, gg. And I'm glad. :) I hope you are able to fly free with a genuineness that feels comfortable and natural to you.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 9:41:46
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:51:27
Not annoying at all, Dinah. I was stuck for so long in such a severe depression, with the same painful, horribly negative thoughts just reverberating around and around. My T pointed out to me just last week that anyone who was as depressed as I was is at very high risk for a relapse; even though he's an analyst, and doesn't prescribe any anti-depressants, he wants me to continue taking low doses of Lexapro and Wellbutrin, and to consult my pdoc if the depression starts to get worse-right away. This is in spite of all the intensive work we are doing in therapy, which seems to me like it is really healing the old wounds.
Your father sounds like mine: he was absolutely awful to my son- taunting him, finding every possible fault in him- but, at bottom, I think he was very jealous, too. I never allowed my son to be alone with him. So far, he's doing fine. (my son, I mean). My father died ten years ago without ever growing or changing one bit. He was smart, too- but not psychologically smart at all. It makes me feel so sad to think of all the missed opportunities- but it does take two if things are going to change in a healthy direction.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 10:24:20
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 9:41:46
I can really understand your posts and your struggle, Dinah. I never was eloquent enough to be able to put my selves into the language you've expressed; you did that really well in the lst couple of days and don't beat yourself up for going back and forth and being insecure about what's best. I hope you work it out without hiding your real self, because I think if you go with the fake Dinah, although the world might be able to handle her and she gets what she wants (which is what, by the way, I don't think you ever did say. In your first post you said the fake Dinah gets what she wants. Which is what?) the real Dinah will suffer even more. She needs to come out and be accepted, not just by her T, but real people who're self-sufficient enough that they don't need Dinah to be all fake.
Posted by fallsfall on August 22, 2004, at 11:27:09
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 10:24:20
I think there is value in being who you really are. Because if you aren't who you are, then who-you-are is lost to the world. I think you are saying that perhaps the world wouldn't be losing much if the real you *were* lost. But, to get slightly spiritual (which I don't usually do..), I think that the real you was put on this earth for a reason and that the real you has things to contribute. So if the real you is lost, then the world loses that contribution. Sort of like endangered species? I guess that sometimes species disappear, and that is part of the evolution of the planet (i.e. dinosaurs). But sometimes they disappear because others on the planet are selfish and push them out (Time magazine has an article on how the populations of "big cats" is declining). Should we defend those species who are endangered - and maintain the diversity in the world? Or should we let "nature take its course" - and count on survival of the fittest to govern how the world evolves?
I don't know the answer to that question. I feel that fighting against the natural order of the world (i.e. fighting to protect a particular species of owl by "crippling" other species' abilities to grow to their potential) is counterproductive to the truth that our world does evolve. But I do have real sadness about the uniqueness that we extinguish by our callousness.
I guess I am worried about losing the real you. ***I*** WANT to know the real you. But I'm not sure that the real you is either Dinah-who-is-as-she-should-be OR Dinah-who-is-as-she-is. I get the feeling that they are both defenses. I know that you adamantly oppose integrating those parts of you. But I like *both* of them enough to wish that they could come to some agreement - so there would be less conflict inside you.
I guess that, for me, the benefit of you being genuine would be that the world would be blessed by your *youness*. I am compelled to save this particular uniqueness in this world - I just think that the world will be missing something if *you* is lost.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 13:04:30
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
> So what is the benefit in being genuine? If other people like me better fake and superficial, and it hurts less being fake and superficial, does being genuine serve any purpose whatsoever? Does the real me have any value at all?
I am going to go into mental rambling mode. I hope the walk through my gardens is a pleasant one.
The ancient Greeks used to present plays wherein the actors wore masks with exaggerated facial expressions (you sometimes still see depictions of those, the happy and sad faces, at live theaters). Those masks were called persona, and from that, we developed these many centuries later, the concept of personality.
We all have persona. It's expected of us. What are manners, other than aspects of a socially determined persona?
I'd also hazard a guess that each of us has multiple other persona (I think the plural is the same word, but it might be personnae). You wear a daddy persona, or a husband persona, a professional persona, a drunk-in-a-bar persona.....every person in your world gets a different one.
Each persona confers benefits, but it also comes at a price. The magnitude of the benefit or cost is actually denominated in what I call "authenticity units". How much effort does it take to create and maintain the persona, versus how much the persona succeeds in getting your needs met. The authentic you is stretched just how far? to maintain that image, and to get exactly which needs? of the authentic you satisfied.
Sometimes we suppress awareness of some of the costs, because we wish to emphasize a particular benefit. Is that good or bad? Only you can say. It's not black and white, and never was, because there is no persona that is purely beneficial, and without cost....just as there is no persona that is purely adverse, and without benefit.
An example might be that stereotypical Mars/Venus-in-marriage thingie. He values her so long as she keeps the house clean, works full-time, has dinner ready, and puts out when he feels like it. She values the social position, additional financial security, commitment, and stability while raising a family. No one can say, other than the parties involved, whether the effort to maintain the persona is sustainable, given the return on the investment. Some people don't even want to think about it. They don't want to know.
Dinah, I see you asking such a question. Is the authenticity cost of maintaining your present situation greater than the cost you would assume by dropping that persona, and becoming more authentic? That's what I'm "hearing" you ask.
I'm sure everyone has a superficial persona. The one that does all the "small-talk" that we do every day. Look at the language itself. *Small*-talk goes with superficial. It's easier, certainly, but can it ever be satisfying? I suspect your question would not even arise, but for the fact that you know the answer already. You're not satisfied.
You question the transition, from old persona to new, and understandably so. The terms of your own questioning, though, seem to be external. What will the effect be on others, if you become more authentic, or on your relationship with those others, if you become the real one? But also, what will be the effect on you?
From experience, I've found that when I become more authentic, life becomes very much simpler. I don't have to interpret myself in terms of the multiple personnae (that looks right, so I guess the plural *is* personnae). Along with that comes a loss of superficial people. The people who only valued me when I "did their bidding", via adoption of the "approved" persona, fall away. I no longer meet their needs. That can be good, that can be bad. If you want certain people to remain in your world, you must decide if you are willing to pay the price, in "authenticity units", but you'll start to do so overtly. You'll see the price clearly. That's what a shift towards genuine gives you.
You already do that, Dinah. Your dear friends are the ones that let you wear the most comfortable personnae.
The types of relationships I now have with people are different than before. My friends are those who meet this definition of friendship, "they still like me, even after they've gotten to know me well." Those friends do meet my needs. I get more benefit than I pay, that's for certain. I don't have to guess any more why someone might like me. And, if they don't, it's their loss, not mine. I become less dependent. Not lonely, but valuing solitude. And welcoming, when those dear people come back.
Yes, I see finding "the genuine self" to be an invaluable goal. The "genuine you" still carries personnae. That won't change. But they'll fit better. They won't chafe so. They'll be more comfortable. And they'll allow you to love yourself, just as you are. Not conditionally, through playing a role, but unconditionally, just for being you. As Mastercard says, "Priceless."
I think I'll end the garden tour, here.
Hugs, Di.
Lar
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:25:35
In reply to Re: The real Dinah, posted by fallsfall on August 22, 2004, at 11:27:09
> I think there is value in being who you really are. Because if you aren't who you are, then who-you-are is lost to the world. I think you are saying that perhaps the world wouldn't be losing much if the real you *were* lost. But, to get slightly spiritual (which I don't usually do..), I think that the real you was put on this earth for a reason and that the real you has things to contribute. So if the real you is lost, then the world loses that contribution. Sort of like endangered species? I guess that sometimes species disappear, and that is part of the evolution of the planet (i.e. dinosaurs). But sometimes they disappear because others on the planet are selfish and push them out (Time magazine has an article on how the populations of "big cats" is declining). Should we defend those species who are endangered - and maintain the diversity in the world? Or should we let "nature take its course" - and count on survival of the fittest to govern how the world evolves?
The species that are endangered are most often as a result of humanity's activities, I believe. Could be wrong. But if I'm right, then don't we have a responsibility to pick up the pieces? Trouble then is, how far back do you go and what action can you take? And will your counter-actions mess things up even further?
>
> I don't know the answer to that question. I feel that fighting against the natural order of the world (i.e. fighting to protect a particular species of owl by "crippling" other species' abilities to grow to their potential) is counterproductive to the truth that our world does evolve. But I do have real sadness about the uniqueness that we extinguish by our callousness.I'm thinking that we're part of the natural world and our brains stimulate themselves to do certain things in a more radical way than other species so even though I believe we're on a crash course for a bad end, that would be a natural consequence of who we are. Because we're part of the world. We're here. Can we change history and be different? Time machine, anyone?
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:33:36
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 13:04:30
I'm sorry for quoting you, you said "Dinah, I see you asking such a question. Is the authenticity cost of maintaining your present situation greater than the cost you would assume by dropping that persona, and becoming more authentic? That's what I'm "hearing" you ask."
I'm not even finished reading your post yet but I wanted to tell you I think you have a very thoughtful interpretation here. I could be wrong.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 16:42:09
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » Larry Hoover, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 16:33:36
> I think you have a very thoughtful interpretation here. I could be wrong.
You're not wrong. <big wink>
Posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
In reply to Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :(, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 8:26:07
Dinah,
I'm sorry you're feeling conflicted! I'm glad you feel better after some sleep (I hope you do, anyway!) and I'm also glad that you posted your questions -- really glad. :)One good thing to see is the overwhelming response to your post! It appears that EVERYONE here feels somewhat the same way -- that we all have a 'fake' or 'public' persona in addition to the 'genuine' one, that we all kind of accept that this is normal, and that we also kind of hate that it has to be so.
Hopefully that is somewhat comforting, in a small way? Knowing that you're not alone in the weird spiralling thought mess of me vs. me?
I often think about the exact questions you asked. I too have the Genuine JenStar and the Visible JenStar. The visible one is sort of a mud-hut thatched-roof patchwork combination of the real me and the social me and the me-I-want-to-be and the me-of-this-moment-trying-something-new-let's-see-how-this-feels.
The more I get to know someone, the more I let out the real JenStar. I disclose bits little by little, and if the person doesn't run away screaming, I feel happy & want to disclose more. Sometimes I'm feeling risky or frisky and I loose a lot of truth all at once, just to see what happens. Of course, the other person is disclosing too...and sometimes I like the 'real them' and sometimes I don't. It's not always a match.
And I think that's why it is kind of scary to show the 'real me' -- that's it, that's the root, there's nothing else in there...and if you don't like it, wow - that's real rejection! I can't mask it by saying "it was just my fake persona I showed you, no big deal that you didn't like her"...it was a judgement about the real me. Scary.
I know what you're saying about the fake person being designed to fit into society. I do that too...and it sounds like we ALL do!
Sometimes I used to feel despair at work because I felt that the 'real' person was becoming too far buried under the lacquer of the 'socially acceptable' person. I didn't LIKE the lacquer (some people do like it...bully for them, right?) and started feeling suffocated. I wasn't confident that I could do as well at work if I let out the real JenStar, esp. after burying lots of her for so long. It would certainly be a shock -- at least -- that I was acting differently...and might not be taken well. Could be seen as signs of insubordination, inability to get along in a team, not playing along with company values, blah, blah.
I sometimes think about this stuff, gloomily and deeply, and then wake up the next day full of bright cheerful resolve and a devil-may-care attitude about the various personae. Screw them all! I think. Let's just enjoy the day! :)
I guess we can't think about this stuff all the time or we'd a)go nuts and b)overanalyse every action, movement, gesture, tone and word we use -- overthink and overplan -- until we go crazy.
But don't you think that maybe the fake Dinah doeesn't hide the real one as much as you want or think she does? I mean, I could be wrong (often am...) but when I look at people I've gotten to know: I'm not usually TOTALLY wrong about my impressions. I always learn more, find the depths, the fears, the funny side, the thoughts, the prejudices...but sometimes their fake self doesn't REALLY hide it as well as they think it does. I'm sure it's that way for me, too: Despite all my talk of the genuine and the social jen, they're probably closer than I know.
Anyway, whichever Dinah posts here -- I like her. Send in the rest of them, too, but I'm willing to bet that they're all smart and cool. :)
All the JenStar(s)
PS - About what your T said about finding the true self: Sometimes when I'm fake I get angry at myself. Why should I have to censor the true self just because I feel weird about a situation? I mean, it's not like I'm psychotic or dangerous or creepy in the 'real me' -- I'm maybe just different from what I think the social norm might be. It wouldn't be BAD to be true to myself -- so why don't I do it more?
When I do it more, I feel great and energized and strong and happy. At those times, I think: Hey! That felt good!
I can't answer the questions about your hubby liking the other Dinah better. But...you DID say that you were feeling esp. depressed lately...are you SURE that isn't getting in the way here - maybe making you feel that when it might not be true? Sometimes when I get depressed I think I'm unlovable or less lovable. It sounds like you kind of do the same. It's wrong of me to presume to make judgements about your relationship (pls forgive!) -- just wanted to say that you're a cool person. Don't let sadness & tiredness blot out your pretty Dinah-ness. :)
> It doesn't even make any sense to me. I was very tired. I think the Provigil that has upped my productivity to almost acceptable levels has also disturbed my sleep pattern.
Posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:37:44
In reply to Re: Being genuine » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on August 21, 2004, at 20:04:51
Mel,
I like this post of yours and the other follow-up you wrote. You put into words very succinctly what I wanted to say!JenStar
Posted by AuntieMel on August 22, 2004, at 19:02:49
In reply to Re: Being genuine » AuntieMel, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:37:44
Posted by henrietta on August 22, 2004, at 19:11:23
In reply to Re: Being genuine » AuntieMel, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:37:44
Taking a break from "Ordinary People" (DVD) to add another, less personal point of view. As a person who was called inauthentic from birth (good old mom), the question of authenticity has been one of the major intellectual and spiritual questions of my life..... but then, that's personal and I said I was going elsewhere, didn't I? (Remember being obsessed by Molier's "Alceste" in high school??)
Dictionary synonmyns: real, true, authentic, not counterfeit or artificial, sincere, frank honest.
I say it don't pay to be authentic. You kin become president of the UUUnited states by being
inauthentic, dishonest and ungenuine. Or you kin try to be honest to yourself and your experience and get trashed by those lovely elephants. Yeah, all and all I say being genuine ain't profitable.
Now back to a theatrical presentation of the consequences in personal, family life of never troubling to be authentic. (Ordinary People, on DVD at your local video store NOW.)
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:32:05
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
When I read this, "One good thing to see is the overwhelming response to your post! It appears that EVERYONE here feels somewhat the same way -- that we all have a 'fake' or 'public' persona in addition to the 'genuine' one, that we all kind of accept that this is normal, and that we also kind of hate that it has to be so." I was validated in what I've been feeling since I melted down (and am hauling self back up). What a lovely meeting of minds.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:44:12
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
You wrote, "Sometimes I'm feeling risky or frisky and I loose a lot of truth all at once, just to see what happens." What happens with me is *always* I take someone aback and suddenly they're behaving differently. Uncomfortably. And what always amazes me when this happens, is that I don't think I've said anything particularly strange. Just true. Truths we all know but don't want to think about. I usually end up saying them. Maybe it's my timing, maybe it's their comfort level with bald statements of fact, but in any case unless the person who so reacted has adjusted behaviour next time we meet, it's usually sayonara I know I can't trust that person again. Oh gosh this happens all the time. Does anyone know what I'm talking about or am I out in space? I can take the truth.
Posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:48:05
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
Posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 19:59:33
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 9:34:38
That's very sweet, Dinah. I wish the same for you.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by daisym on August 22, 2004, at 21:30:41
In reply to Re: The real Dinah » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on August 22, 2004, at 19:59:33
I think being genuine really means knowing yourself and DECIDING when and with whom you "let it all hang out." I don't want most people to see my vulnerabilities or my deep feelings. It is sort of like talking about sex...there are few people I really do that with. It is a difference in depth. There is surface me, and then there is inner me. I think the more I know myself and have accepted all parts of me, the better I can regulate those parts in any given situation.
I think that is the real value in being genuine. It allows you to choose, and to change. It is harder to change (and grow) if you are meeting everyone else's needs. Because who you are is dictated by who you think they want you to be. And if they change their mind, (grow too), you have to "guess" for awhile to become who you think they want again. It is much easier to know yourself but govern your action.
You and I have talked about marital fights. We both choose mostly to walk away. BUT, we know why we choose that and where we draw the line in the sand. That is a genuine choice. It works for the main part of ourselves for private reasons.
I think you are on a path to authenticity that gets painful sometimes. I'm on that same path. The "real" you needs to make the journey. But, you aren't going to ever find the cave that the "real" you is hiding in. Because the journey is what it's about, not the destination.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 1:57:05
In reply to A slightly different take, posted by daisym on August 22, 2004, at 21:30:41
After a few nights of little sleep, I think I'm going to have to pull an all nighter to get out the work that was supposed to be out last week. :(
I'm not going to think about the stuff due at the end of this week.Right now I'm buzzing like crazy, so I may have to crash tomorrow. But I'll be back soon. I didn't want anyone to think I was purposefully ignoring.
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:08:30
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » JenStar, posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:44:12
Yes, I do know what you mean. I think that's why I usually try to 'go slow' when meeting someone new (apart from those risky/frisky times!) I know that I personally tend to get overwhelmed and then back away when I learn too much too soon, and see the same from others. But if I go slow, those same things that were overwhelming or off-putting or just down-right scary become easier to handle.
It reminds me of the famous saying about the frog in boiling water: (sorry for the bad paraphrase!) If you put a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will try mightily to leap out. However, if you put a frog into a pot of cool water and heat it up to boiling, he will stay in there and cook.
So I suppose the parallel I'm making is...getting to know me is perhaps like a frog (YOU) getting slowly boiled (getting to know all about me!)
That's a really negative comparison, though. I'm going to have to come up with something that hits the same note but sounds a lot more positive...
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:08:59
In reply to JenStar you're very eloquent (nm), posted by Susan47 on August 22, 2004, at 19:48:05
Posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:20:06
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine? » tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 22, 2004, at 0:15:41
Dinah,
your emotional color view is very interesting to me! It sounds very thorough.I've read about people who mentally assign color to alphabetic letters or to musical tones from the time they are babies (for some, "A" can be bright blue, etc.)
Do you have color-assignations in other places besides emotion?
JenStar
> I have trouble with middle ground too. Like Linehan's wise mind.
>
> And I wouldn't exactly say Fake Dinah suppresses all feelings or doesn't express any. It's just the relatively limited range of emotions that helped get me labelled schizotypal. Dinah Who Is As She Should Be does righteous indignation superbly. :) And definitely has a better sense of humor than Dinah Who Is As She Is.
>
> Long before I could name my emotions, I used colors to describe them. I did this whole color wheel using a full range of crayola colors, with differing shades and intensities. Then I assigned a name to describe the color. The first few years in therapy, I'd consult the chart to say "I'm feeling brick red... ok that's resentful." Anyway, Fake Dinah has a full range of emotions, but in the bright glittery range. Excitement, amusement, irritation, indignation. Real Dinah has a full range of emotions in the warmer range - and darn it I still can't describe those well. But lavender rather than blue, or crimson rather than fire truck red.
>
> Ohhhh, I'm not making any sense even to myself.
>
> What you said made perfect sense, and when I read it I couldn't figure out why on earth I wouldn't want that for myself. I'm going to have to think about it more.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:00:53
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Susan47, posted by JenStar on August 23, 2004, at 11:08:30
Actually I really thought the analogy worked. Isn't that how we get into bad relationships? Best foot forward, moving too fast, next thing you know you're boiled.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 23, 2004, at 12:39:44
In reply to Re: Everthing I wrote last night is best ignored. :( » Dinah, posted by JenStar on August 22, 2004, at 18:34:01
One thing you wrote caught my attention:
"Sometimes I used to feel despair at work because I felt that the 'real' person was becoming too far buried under the lacquer of the 'socially acceptable' person. I didn't LIKE the lacquer (some people do like it...bully for them, right?) and started feeling suffocated."
In cases like that I LOVE the lacquer. I don't WANT to be up close and personal with people I work with. That part of me is saved for the few. And for the most part workmates aren't part of the few. It would be just too uncomfortable if they found a part of the "real" me that they thought strange. Laugh, joke, get along and do my work.
Imagine their surprise, though, when I had my breakdown, spent a few days in the hospital and took 4 months medical leave.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 23, 2004, at 13:48:11
In reply to What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 10:34:18
Dinah,
Do you think you could possibly be thinking TOO much? Be analyzing TOO much?? I simply ask this because one of the first things I blurted out in therpay was that I was the biggest phony on the planet and did such a wonderful snow job on everyone I met whom I exposed to the fake Laurel and never let them see the "real" Laurel. In short, I was genuine with no one.
I think a lot of this had to do with my depression and the more that lifted, and the more I got to like myself better, the more I realized that that the phony Laurel was in fact part of the real Laurel. I was not being disingenuous at all. I think I also stopped analyzing a lot of stuff and just let myself "be."
I have trained my husband to no longer use shoulds - he was a huge proponent of that. It has made life a lot easier for me and our relationship as a result.
So I guess I just want to say to give yourself a break and let yourself be. Make ANY sense?
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 18:39:52
In reply to Re: What is the point of being genuine?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on August 23, 2004, at 13:48:11
I'm still processing, but I have a preliminary question.
Does being fake require more energy? It's as easy as falling off a log for me. It's keeping access to my emotions open that is enormously difficult. Give me something to read, or a piece of work to concentrate on, and those emotions are gone and not to be seen again unless I really work at it.
Is the usual experience the other way round?
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