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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
I am fighting the urge to cancel my next session because my therapist said something that hurt my feelings.
Well, to be strictly honest, he said he never said that he thought what I was saying was true. I had said that I thought I behaved like an idiot in therapy, and that I was humiliated, etc. And that I agreed that my behavior might be silly. And he said that if I felt that way, I should change it. He was very clear in saying that he wasn't agreeing that my behavior was silly, but...
Anyway, my impulse is that if he wants me to stop acting in a silly way in therapy, that I just won't go to therapy and then I can't possibly act silly. But I sort of know that that sort of thinking is... silly.
The grown up thing to do is to go to therapy, either act the way I normally do or try to change, and either mention it or not mention it. But what's so all fire great about being grown up anyway?
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on August 13, 2004, at 15:38:46
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
I feel there maybe a rebellion thing going on. It's as if, "If I can't be silly in therapy well, I am not going. I will show him whose boss." hmmmmm What do you think Dinah? What is the real *issue* under the silly business?
Posted by mair on August 13, 2004, at 16:44:32
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
Dinah
Who raised this subject to begin with? Did he ask you what about your behavior that you found to be silly or idiotic? Did you have something specific in mind when you made your comment? Does this have anything to do with all the difficulties you're having now with your parents? Maybe an acting out on your part.
I sometimes say/think I'm being an idiot in therapy and of course, my T doesn't agree. But I'm not very tolerant of any of the inclinations I might have to act in any way which I associate as childhood or adolescent feelings. So if I'm feeling easily hurt, for instance, or rebellious, or particularly needy - I extrapolate that I'm acting like an idiot.
I think it's much better if you can acknowledge that it's ok in therapy not to always act the grown-up and accept this in yourself - clearly your therapist accepts it.
I'm reading over all this and it seems like so much psychobabble (for lack of a better term). I'm sure if I was a therapist I'd confuse the hell out of my patients, (-;
Mair
Posted by fallsfall on August 13, 2004, at 16:57:43
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
I am a little confused:
You said: my impulse is that if he wants me to stop acting in a silly way in therapy, that I just won't go to therapy and then I can't possibly act silly.
Right after you said: He was very clear in saying that he wasn't agreeing that my behavior was silly,
So who is it that wants you to stop acting in a silly way in therapy????
Personally, I like being childlike.
SOMETIMES you have to be adult, but I think a large helping of childlike makes one's life much better.
Posted by Aphrodite on August 13, 2004, at 17:52:47
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
I'd be interested in an example of what you do that you find silly. I have been tempted too to cancel to punish my T, but ultimately I am only punishing myself.
And you know in your heart of hearts that if you tell him how you felt, that he hurt your feelings, that you wanted to cancel, he'll say and do all the right things to make you feel better again. That's something about your T I am very jealous of.
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 13, 2004, at 18:50:41
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
I guess my question is what would have liked him to say to your question?
Do these questions resonate:
When I am being silly how does it effect you?Are you okay with and enjoy my being silly?
Or have you noticed me behaving in a silly way?
I liked what Kali M. said about asking for what you really want...did you want empathy? sympathy? support? etc.
Posted by Susan47 on August 13, 2004, at 19:26:56
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
You said you "agreed" that your behaviour might be silly. Did he actually say that to you?
Posted by daisym on August 14, 2004, at 0:47:49
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
Oh Dinah,
It sounds like a conflict between your more rational side and your emotional side. Why did that rational side decide to speak up in therapy? She must have been paying attention to what your emotional side was doing.
You always tell me that there needs to be room for both sides in therapy. That an agreement about whose turn it is must be kept. Maybe the need to be "silly" or childlike is what your emotional and younger-self needs and wants. After all, this is the part of you that NEEDS therapy.
My guess is that you don't act silly at all. You are just emotionally honest and this gets under your rational sides skin. You've also said that you see no need to integrate these two sides...so they both need room to be who they are, right?
Give yourself a break. I'm sure your therapist doesn't think you are silly at all. Nor did he mean to hurt your feelings. It is probably a case of him following your lead. I hate it when they "miss" like that!
Come out to Open and play sometime with little daisy. She misses you.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 13:01:28
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly, posted by daisym on August 14, 2004, at 0:47:49
I thought I was ready to think about this this morning after sleeping all day yesterday, but after reading the responses I went back to bed for another hour.
When I think rationally, I am embarassed at the way my emotional side talks, both the tone of voice, the pitch, the neediness, the illogical content of what is said. And I can hear myself mocking me in intonation, and after therapy I think I've been horribly stupid and my therapist must think I'm a silly idiot. And even my emotional self thinks that maybe that is true. So what I told my therapist is that Maybe I thought it was true, perhaps even I did think it was true. That I *was* embarassed.
It's not like I do it on purpose. I say what I'm thinking and that may not be logical or socially acceptable. And as I get deeper into therapy and more emotional topics, my voice changes and I do sound more needy and dependent. And yes, that's silly.
He said he felt manipulated, and maybe that's true. I feel ashamed about it, and I wanted him to say "Of course you don't appear silly to me. Please don't feel like you need to change. You're fine as you are." or something along those lines. Instead he said "If you feel that way, why don't you change." And "I didn't *say* I agreed with what you said, but if you feel that way, I think you should do something about it."
Now part of why that's upsetting is that I know my therapist and how he responds to things. If he crosses his arms and tells me that something is my choice, I know what he means and I fuss at him until he says something more helpful. I know that if he says "I know you feel that way" with no "but" afterwards, in a gentle tone but with finality he really means "I know you feel that way and I think you're completely wrong and I think it's sad but I also know that I'm just wasting my breath talking to you about it." I don't like it nearly as much as "I know you feel that way, but..."
I know that if I did something he thought was admirable or even just fine, and came in and said I was ashamed or embarassed, he would work on the shame or embarassment, not the behavior. So if I came in and said "I got my hair done, and a manicure, and makeup and I feel ridiculous, like a clown. This isn't who I feel I am.", he would tell me all the reasons it was wrong to be ashamed and why it was a good thing to try new things. If I told him I wasn't sure I could physically care for my father and I was ashamed of that, he would tell me that some people can and some people can't and I shouldn't be ashamed of not being able to do that. But I told him I was ashamed of looking silly in therapy and he commented on changing the behavior, not on not feeling ashamed. I have a good guess what that means because I know him (or therapy him at least) so well.
If I told him what it was I wanted him to say, he'd probably say something as close to what I said as he could honestly say. But this isn't something where I can really do that, because... I dunno. But I can't. It wouldn't really be the same.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 13:01:54
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly » daisym, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 13:01:28
Posted by Aphrodite on August 14, 2004, at 14:47:30
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly » daisym, posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 13:01:28
>
> When I think rationally, I am embarassed at the way my emotional side talks, both the tone of voice, the pitch, the neediness, the illogical content of what is said. And I can hear myself mocking me in intonation, and after therapy I think I've been horribly stupid and my therapist must think I'm a silly idiot.
Oh, OK, I get it now. Wow, I am the same way. Sometimes my therapist directly addresses the kid parts of me, and I will say something completely whiny and dependent. The cynic in me completely self-berates later and in the cold light of day, I'll think of what I said and feel like a complete fool. I've never told him I felt that way, but I certainly would not want him to tell me to change it. In fact, I would hope he would encourage it and discourage my cynic who is not only critical of him, but of my need to be in therapy at all.I hope it's a misunderstanding -- I think I wasn't completely clear until you said what I quoted above. I'm sure he would be sad that your rational side has mocked your emotions.
Posted by daisym on August 14, 2004, at 16:48:20
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on August 14, 2004, at 14:47:30
I think we all have therapy selves that we wish wouldn't show themselves to someone who is so important to us. The "rules" about being honest and talking about what ever is up conflicts with our need to have our therapist's like us, at least for me sometimes.
I'm pretty honest about this issue. I'll say something emotional or needy and then say, "but that is just stupid." And his standard answer is, "whose voice is that? Nothing is stupid in here."
I do try to make sure that he knows that I don't express myself this openly and honestly anywhere else. And he always says that is as it should be. It is interesting because it sounds like the part of you that you hate expressing is the emotional part. For me, it is the angry part. I can't see letting the anger into the room. I'm terrified how he would react to that behavior.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 17:04:33
In reply to Therapy selves, posted by daisym on August 14, 2004, at 16:48:20
My emotional self doesn't do anger well. I'll get intensely angry for short bursts of time, generally do or say something I regret or else nearly explode, then get scared and try to undo everything I've done and said. Fortunately I also get very inarticulate when I'm angry and don't manage to say as much as I'd like.
My rational side does anger rather well, I think. I get enormously articulate, and I think better when angry.
Does your anger come from your "emotional" self, Daisy? Mine usually comes from my "rational" self.
Posted by Dinah on August 14, 2004, at 17:06:50
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on August 14, 2004, at 14:47:30
He knew. In fact we were discussing it in context when this came up. Perhaps he was trying to smooth over internal conflict by reducing a source of irritation for my rational self?
My rational side is very critical of my therapist, too. :)
Posted by gardenergirl on August 14, 2004, at 21:48:12
In reply to Therapy selves, posted by daisym on August 14, 2004, at 16:48:20
> I'll say something emotional or needy and then say, "but that is just stupid." And his standard answer is, "whose voice is that? Nothing is stupid in here."
Oh my gosh, I do the same thing, although he has called me on it so many times, I sort of censor it now. And I don't think he's ever said, "who's voice is that?" But he has said, "why would that be stupid?" and then gone on about it.
It's mostly when I talk about feeling something, but the rational part of me says that there's not reason to feel that...I know better, etc.
gg
Posted by Starlight on August 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly, posted by fallsfall on August 13, 2004, at 16:57:43
It's a really good defense mechanism at work. As long as you're silly, you're avoiding what needs to be addressed. I find writing down, making a list of things I want to discuss with my doc can keep me more grounded, otherwise I tend to go into my 'everything's great and I'm loving life mode' rather than addressing certain issues that would be more pertinent to the session.
starlight
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 16, 2004, at 18:23:52
In reply to Re: I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Starlight on August 16, 2004, at 12:53:46
Hi, are you a therapist? You seem so clear and focused. Are you a new poster? Or have you been here a while?
I've been here since November 2003
Posted by Starlight on August 17, 2004, at 17:35:08
In reply to starlight, posted by Jai Narayan on August 16, 2004, at 18:23:52
Not a therapist. I've been here for a long time -started posting, I think a year and a half ago, and then quit for awhile and then came back after my Pdoc broke my confidentiality and I needed people to share the story with who would be understanding, since of course I couldn't share the information with many people.
I have been labeled BP II, but am not wholly convinced and think it's more likely that I have depression and anxiety (PTSD from growing up in an abusive home).
I've also been labled 'high functioning' whatever that means. I just think it means that I put my pains aside and just keep going.
If I sound clear and focused it's because journaling, playing music and studying a variety of philosophies (mainly eastern), plus studying and teaching yoga (and of course, deep self contemplation) have made me that way. Thank you for the compliment. Maybe I'll be a therapist in my lifetime after next - but the next one's reserved for me to be a doctor! ;>)
Cheers,
starlight
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 18, 2004, at 8:06:13
In reply to Re: starlight, posted by Starlight on August 17, 2004, at 17:35:08
Starlight becoming a doctor sounds like a plan. I had wanted to do that this lifetime. Oh well.
Posted by Starlight on August 18, 2004, at 15:16:10
In reply to Re: starlight, posted by Jai Narayan on August 18, 2004, at 8:06:13
This lifetime would have been good, but I wasn't good at math and was naturally gifted (I guess) at music and creative writing....
starlight
Posted by shortelise on August 19, 2004, at 1:48:53
In reply to I am being unbelievably silly, posted by Dinah on August 13, 2004, at 13:53:06
Dinah, you made me laugh! What indeed is the big deal about being grown up?
I am tired and just can't read through the long trail of responses you have here, so forgive me if I repeat what someone else has said already.
You kow you're projecting your feelings about yourself onto him, right? And you know that you feel you are being silly, right? So you think that you can't not be silly except by not going to therapy, right? That's why you want to cancel.
Sooooo, the solution is to go and - get this - talk about it!
Aha, right?
The great thing about a good therpist is, unless I am much mistaken, s/he knows it is all about you. I am sometimes ashamed of how hard I have been on mine, and it made me cry a few months ago when he said something about how normal, and acceptable how I acted was. I felt ... forgiven, though I guess there was nothing to forgive. It brings tears to my eyes just to write about it here.
Therapy is very interesting.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 10:15:29
In reply to grown up?? » Dinah, posted by shortelise on August 19, 2004, at 1:48:53
I talked to him about it last time, mentioned what it was that I had been wanting to hear and how what he said sounded to me. He said all the right things. But after you tell them what you're after, and they say it, it just doesn't seem the same, you know?
Posted by shortelise on August 19, 2004, at 11:31:49
In reply to Re: grown up?? » shortelise, posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 10:15:29
Mine doesn't always say what I ask to hear. That's proof that he's not my puppet, isn't it?
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2004, at 13:43:46
In reply to Re: grown up?? » Dinah, posted by shortelise on August 19, 2004, at 11:31:49
Well, I don't think mine is my puppet. :) He and I frequently and vociferously argue. I think that the problem here was that we were talking apples and oranges. I think when I made clear what I was trying to say, and what I heard him saying, that he tried to change the message he was sending.
But again, I think it would have been more effective if it had been presented differently. At the point he started talking apples rather than oranges, it was probably too late for his message to have meaning.
This is the end of the thread.
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