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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
I told my therapist today that I was very good at reading people and very, very good at picking up signals about how they needed or wanted me to be. For example, I had a conversation with a friend who is more intimately involved with my therapy progress than anyone else. She asked how things are and I told her and she reframed everything I said, with "well, you've accepted things. Life is hard. Now it's about taking action and moving on." I don't disagree with her, but it moves the conversation, for me, into only talking about the positives and minimizing the other stuff. My take on it is she wants me to acknowledge the positives and not dwell on the negatives. OK, I can do that.
When we talked about this example, my therapist said, "So you perceive what she wants and then you scramble to go in that direction." Exactly! I've done that my whole life. You don't disappoint people if you can figure out what they want and give it to them.
He then wanted to know if I picked up signals from him too, if I was worried about disappointing him. I said yes, sometimes I'll zig, and then realize he wanted me to zag, but that usually I try to tell him what I'm perceiving, to see if it is correct. The hardest parts are when I think he is thrilled about several "good" sessions in a row and then I go downhill. It is then really hard to come in and be honest and admit to being back in a needy place. Or, I know he doesn't want me to blame myself for what happened when I was a kid so I frame things by stating that: "I know intellectually it wasn't may fault, but..." I told him I was sure he was frustrated by the amount of times we've had the "it's OK to need therapy" conversation. And that I thought he saw progress as me handling more of these emotional roller-coaster rides on my own, with less contact, either sessions or on the phone.
He was quiet for a little while and then said, "I thought about you this weekend. I thought about the fact that I haven't heard from you much, but instead of being relieved, I just wondered what that really meant. If you were really doing OK or if you were holding yourself back again. And then we get in here yesterday (Monday) and you've had a terribly hard weekend and you are a mess. And you admit to wanting to call me. And we've agreed you do so much better when we have a lot of contact. So I have to wonder why it still isn't safe enough for you to call me? Because I'd much rather help keep you together than see you in pieces."
He talked about understanding my fears, and he knew that being so attached to him was scary and he promised (for the millionth time) that I couldn't need him too much and that he wasn't going anywhere. He said what progress would look like to him is for me to come in and just be myself. To be completely and totally open about what I am thinking and feeling and needing. No editing and censuring. He said he really wanted me to tell him if I was reading signals from him about expectations or frustration. Because the only expectation he had was that I would lean on him as much as I needed or wanted to and the only frustration he had was me protecting him from me. (He then took a heavy hand and said he was setting up contact again for a while because it seemed like it was easier on me than having me "just" reach out to him in-between sessions. Can I be secretly relieved about this? Like having me come back today. I was such a mess yesterday, I wanted to just spend the night! )
So the question is, how can you help reading into statements made by your therapist? Or picking up certain signals? Don't you think they develop certain expectations for you? As in wanting (or hoping) for progress? And how can they not get frustrated? I think we do want to avoid disappointing them, even if we know we should concentrate on what we need, not on what they want.
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 19:29:40
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
I think I'm good at reading his signals. I'm good at reading every change of mood. I'm good at knowing how he's reacting.
And I tell myself that I'm good at not molding myself to fit his needs, that I'm good at calling him on his reactions, that I feel comfortable with him to say "I know this will probably annoy you, but...". And heaven only knows I make him frustrated/angry enough to have feedback that I'm *not* trying to conform to his expectations. :)
But I wonder if I'm fooling myself about that. If maybe that's true for the little things, but if there aren't other, overarching, issues where I try to anticipate his reaction and not cause him displeasure.
Or maybe not, because I really am finally sure that he won't terminate me unless he moves or retires.
Hard to say. It's a relationship, and as in most relationships there are a lot of layers and a fair amount of interplay and dance to it. I work hard at making it work, while also keeping my behavior authentic. But I do think there are times when I might keep a session really light after a few contentious or emotional sessions more because I think he needs a break than because I do - to keep the relationship functioning at optimum. But maybe I'm wrong.
Posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 19:30:20
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
I'm sorry you're having a rough time.
Posted by rs on June 29, 2004, at 19:49:55
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
Oh Daisy. I am so sorry that your having such a hard time. I understand how hard this work is. Therapy is hard. It hurts so bad. Also IMO the fact of knowing that we are needy and need are therapist hurts also. We do not want to be needy but indepedent and strong. But Daisy was not our life like that? I mean were we not alone but strong in many ways? We had no choice. Now its ok to want someone to care and help. You deserve this. Please know that your T cares and wants you to need him. It will not always be like this. So what if it takes a long time. Did we have a choice how long it took to suffer and get hurt? Your T sounds like a wonderful person. You deserve nothing but a wonderful T to help you. Please know I am here for you. I know I do not post often but read your posts at all times. You are an inspiration for me. Please be easy on yourself. Hugs if ok.
Posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 21:28:37
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by rs on June 29, 2004, at 19:49:55
rs,
Your hugs are totally OK and appreciated. You are right, we were strong on our own for a long period of time. Which is why it is so hard not to want to be again. It is so much safer that way.
I think you are amazing. You seem to have connected to your therapist in a really open, healthy way. I hope I get there (and stay there!) very soon. Thanks for all your ongoing support.
*smiles*
Daisy
Posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 21:34:16
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on June 29, 2004, at 19:29:40
Even after all this time I still hear some struggle and question in your post around this. Maybe it will always be this way, that the nature of relationships *are* that we don't want to disappoint the other person.
He told me today that the MOST important thing we are working on is this fear. This fear that needing him, or anyone, will result in rejection and hurt. And he said he doesn't expect talking about 1, 10 or 1000 times will be enough. It will just take time.
I hope I get past that fear of therapy ending before I'm ready. I envy you that. It is hard to keep discovering there is *more* to let out. I have to check in to make sure he can still take it, that it is OK to actually tell him this stuff.
Maybe I should do what GG does and not wear my lenses. Then I couldn't "read" him so well.
Posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 22:20:38
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
Daisy,
I think that I understand what your T is saying. I think he wants you to turn of that switch and be yourself. I think it's great that you are recognizing what you are doing. That's half the process. The other half is reacting in a way that you really feel.
Sometimes, what we think our T is feeling is really our own feelings. I had those very thoughts over and over again about lack of progress with an old T. I told a T that I thought she thought I was just a stick in the mud. She said she never thought that at all. Actually, it was my own thoughts. I felt that I was making no progress. I don't know if we can see the real progress all the time.
Daisy, I think this is a positive shift for you. I think it's very positive. Your self-awareness is going to lead you in the right direction.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 30, 2004, at 1:12:05
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by shadows721 on June 29, 2004, at 22:20:38
Daisy,
I have found that when I think I am reading signals, I can never get a straight answer, or it shifts back to me, of course, evil man. But the signals I comment on are boredom, irritation, air of criticism, etc. And I find that I am usually projecting these onto him. Or in the case of boredom, he didn't think he was bored, but he wondered what might be defended that wasn't coming out, leading to somebody being bored. It gets so confusing at times.I have noticed a bit of a shift in transference lately. It's not all positive/idealized/dependent. Now, I am finding I feel like I need to please him more and worry more about criticism or that he thinks I'm hopeless. Last session he talked around this after noticing it, and then acknowledged that he talked around it. Which of course made me worry that he is uncomfortable with my dependence. Like maybe it's time to start gnawing at the cord at bit. So I am determined to talk about it tomorrow and see if he avoids again. It's not like him.
Ack, reading signals is hard. You are right, when I feel like closing my eyes or take my glasses off (hard on days I wear contacts! :) ), it's probably because I'm afraid of what signal I might see there.
Good topic.
And, as usual, kudos to your T.
gg
Posted by rs on June 30, 2004, at 6:07:16
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals » rs, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 21:28:37
Hi Daisy. You know in many ways I feel like you do about needing him etc. It hurts and feel its wrong. But then i feel its ok. It is a hard thing. I really think though that my T has set me up to need him in healthy ways. Remember your a good person and deserve his help. Thinking of you. I enjoy talking with you Daisy. We are working on the same issues and it helps me to read your posts.
Posted by cricket on June 30, 2004, at 8:50:28
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
DaisyM
I really, really know what you're talking about.
I think that I am very good at picking up signals too. I think abused children in general are. I know that at times my very survival depended on that skill.
So now of course I watch my therapists' every facial gesture, listen for every tone of voice, scan every body movement. That is of course when I am not staring at his feet which unfortunately tell me nothing at all. So at times I think I've seen it all or almost it all - caring, frustration, delight, anger, disappointment, approval, sadness and I think that most of the time I am right on.
But then at times I know I am projecting. For example, he puts his head down every so often when he's speaking (perhaps to collect his thoughts or maybe just to avoid my eyes during a difficult moment) and I always think okay here it is now he's going to tell me to leave. It's never happened, of course, but I guarantee that I will still think that next time he puts his head down.
I'm not sure why it's so important for me to try and figure out what he's feeling. I guess it's an old abandonment instinct. Figure out what makes the caregiver happy and you won't be abandoned.
Of course at the same time, I am always pushing my therapist away, shutting down, etc. So it's very complicated. Most of the time I am very much in the "Nyah, nyah, I don't need you" sticking my tongue out incredible brat mode. Now the question is - is he an equally good reader of signals so that he knows that I really mean "but oh yes, I do need you and I think it is going to kill me and I can't stand another minute of it and why don't you just throw me out now because you are going to do it eventually anyway."
Unfortunately we've never discussed any of this and I can't even imagine a conversation like you have with your therapist. So I guess I am not as far along as you are or maybe my therapist just isn't as wonderful as yours sounds.
Posted by Dinah on June 30, 2004, at 9:36:10
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by cricket on June 30, 2004, at 8:50:28
>
> I'm not sure why it's so important for me to try and figure out what he's feeling. I guess it's an old abandonment instinct. Figure out what makes the caregiver happy and you won't be abandoned.Wow. I really do understand. In fact, I think that is probably the root problem I have with standing up to "authority figures" that I was just discussing on Social. I think I need to substitute "caregivers" for "authority figures" and that makes it really easy for me to understand, given my intense fears of abandonment.
>
> Of course at the same time, I am always pushing my therapist away, shutting down, etc. So it's very complicated. Most of the time I am very much in the "Nyah, nyah, I don't need you" sticking my tongue out incredible brat mode. Now the question is - is he an equally good reader of signals so that he knows that I really mean "but oh yes, I do need you and I think it is going to kill me and I can't stand another minute of it and why don't you just throw me out now because you are going to do it eventually anyway."
>
> Unfortunately we've never discussed any of this and I can't even imagine a conversation like you have with your therapist. So I guess I am not as far along as you are or maybe my therapist just isn't as wonderful as yours sounds.I think you'd be surprised if you brought your post in and handed it to him. A lot of therapists are good at seeing through the surface to the underlying feelings. Mine wasn't. Until I told him those things explicitly, he was at a total loss to understand why I kept coming in when I so obviously wasn't getting anything from the experience. Therapy improved *a lot* when I told him how I really felt. It was scary, but with a good therapist the risk is really worth taking.
Posted by lonelygirl on June 30, 2004, at 13:03:17
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
That reminds me very much of my sister. She is ALWAYS trying to figure out what people want and go in that direction. Some people really do want that -- I'm sure she learned it because my dad always expects people to read his mind -- but the problem is that sometimes I just want to know what SHE thinks, and she'll never just tell me -- even for things with no importance! For example, I'll ask her what movie she wants to watch, and she'll say, "Well... what do YOU want to watch?" I'll ask her what she wants for lunch, and she'll say, "Well... what do YOU want to make?"
It's very difficult to drag it out of her; I usually have to "suggest" a few things, hoping that one of the things I say will be what she *really* wants and then she'll feel comfortable saying so. But geez, it would be a whole lot easier if she would just come right out and say it when I ask. Then there are times when she tries to read people's minds and guesses wrong, and nobody wins. For example, I take her places or do things with her, thinking I'm doing something nice for her because she SAYS she wants to do it, but later I find out that she only said she wanted to because she thought *I* wanted to, and she actually hated "having" to spend time with me.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that perhaps there are times when you read into things that aren't there, because you want/need to read something. You may be right about your friend; it sounds like you made a legitimate conclusion from the conversation patterns. You are probably right a lot of the time. You may have people in your life who are like my dad and constantly expect you to read their minds. But SOMETIMES -- and I would imagine this is the case in therapy -- people aren't trying to go in any direction at all. They just want to know what you really think! Sometimes you have to be the one to set the "direction," but if you're used to going about your life trying to figure out what people want, and that's how you make all of your decisions, it's hard to express your unbiased feelings, even to say, for example, what you want for lunch. It’s probably weird, and maybe unsettling, for you to be in a situation where other people are completely neutral.
I also think it sort of works the other way around. If you always deal with people by trying to figure out what they want and acting on that, and you're reluctant to give your real thoughts, people may feel compelled to throw something out there, even if it's not necessarily what they want, just because they sense that you want them to decide. And then you, in turn, may perceive that as the direction they want to go, when it actually doesn’t matter to them.
> When we talked about this example, my therapist said, "So you perceive what she wants and then you scramble to go in that direction." Exactly! I've done that my whole life. You don't disappoint people if you can figure out what they want and give it to them.
Posted by pinkeye on June 30, 2004, at 14:00:08
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals » DaisyM, posted by lonelygirl on June 30, 2004, at 13:03:17
Wow, this thread has been wonderful. It has been so informative. I have lived a lot of my life responding to what other people need mainly because of my dad. He was such a powerful person, that is was difficult to do anything he didn't wish me to. And the worst part was, he always said I could do what I want verbally, but emotionally I always knew he expected me to do things which he liked.
I never really know what I really want to do with my life. But it is so important to know what you really want to do in your life..because a few days back, I was feeling so low, about to give up on everything in life and it occurred to me that all that ever matters in your life is doing what you like to do. That is the only thing that will give you happiness and pick you up from your worst moments.
So I made a decision to atleast know for myself what I really love about my life and what I would like to do. Not for showing others, not for prestige, not for making you look superior, but just for the sake of loving it. Whether you have the courage to follow that or not is even not that important. But to start with, atleast you should identify what you like.
I also keep expecting my T to stop writing to me, to stop caring about me. I keep feeling like I would irritate him so he would throw me out. Even though I haven't irriated him at all. I have been very easy with him mostly. But I worry anyways.
Posted by daisym on June 30, 2004, at 14:03:25
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by cricket on June 30, 2004, at 8:50:28
I think it might be important to talk to your therapist about your need to push him away. It will most likely be uncomfortable but ultimately it will be helpful. In retrospect, I guess I am glad my Therapist brought it up, but at the time I was mortified. He was pretty direct about asking about my "need" for him and we've spent hours discussing attachment theory (part of my master's thesis as applied to moms and babes) and how it correlates into adult therapy. It really helped when he introduced the concept of "little kid feelings" that continue to live in the adultme. It was easier to admit to those somehow. Like it isn't as shameful because I could understand how a little kid would intensely need someone to take care of them.
It is still a struggle. I told him yesterday that I sometimes still feel the need to hide my attachment to him, even from him. It gives him too much power to hurt me. He just calmly says, "I know. But I won't hurt you." I also told him that while I am pushing myself to be more honest and direct about this topic, I do leave and think "I can't believe I admitted that to him. What must he think now!!" He teases me about black marks in my file, because I have this need to be the "perfect" therapy client.
You can do it. It will move things forward. It is hard but I bet you'll be surprised about how much your Therapist already recognizes this about you.
Posted by daisym on June 30, 2004, at 14:21:41
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals » DaisyM, posted by lonelygirl on June 30, 2004, at 13:03:17
LG -
I think you are right in that this pattern of pleasing is difficult to not do with everyone. I'm sure it does drive people crazy at times.
For me, it isn't about "doing" it is more about "being." The difference being I don't think you care what I eat but you care if I'm cranky or sad. I hide the parts of me I think people won't like. My therapist compares it to the chameleon that can "hide" in plain sight.
I guess that is why sometimes I feel more intensely lonely in a crowd. It is exhausting being on for other people all the time.
Posted by daisym on June 30, 2004, at 14:27:08
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by pinkeye on June 30, 2004, at 14:00:08
I think you are absolutely right - knowing what makes you happy is the first step to getting it. And then allowing this to evolve and change overtime is easier. This means knowing yourself, your true self. If you've spent a great deal of time being all things for everyone else, it is hard to find your real self. Who you are at your core and what makes you happy. It seems so much easier to identify what doesn't make us happy.
I wish you well on your search. I'm on that journey myself.
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 1, 2004, at 18:11:14
In reply to Reading your Therapist's signals, posted by DaisyM on June 29, 2004, at 18:57:37
Interesting thread! As someone in analysis, mostly lying down on a couch, a lot of what my analyst and I do is interact with one another- verbally, but also by repose or movement of one another's bodies, and the tone of each other's voices, as well as by the feeling of the silences between us- whether it it tense and fearful, or peaceful and comforting. Now that he knows most of what has happened, emotionally, to me in my life, the sessions are mostly taken up by our reactions to one another- not just mine to him, but also his to me. We continually share these, which allows both of us to correct misunderstandings we may have. I tend to have all the same doubts as everyone else here- especially, I tend to feel that I may have "outlived my welcome" there, and may be unwanted or disliked. He really wants me to tell him these feelings as they occur; he won't correct me, but he'll say something like, "those are the experiences you had with your parents- it's hard for you to imagine that I'm not like them". Then I begin to realize that I naturally wouldn't imagine anything that good- but I have the freedom to do so there. It's just little by little, but it's helping a lot. Talking *to* one another *about* one another seems to be a mainstay of the new psychoanalysis!
Posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:13:15
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals » DaisyM, posted by Pfinstegg on July 1, 2004, at 18:11:14
We do a lot of that too, examining "our" relationship. He told me on Tuesday that it was the "alpha and omega" of therapy. Trusting and needing and then being OK with that.
Signals are confusing. Today was spent tying up some loose ends of the week and sorting out my attempt with my hubby to explain "what was so bad." (It didn't go the way I'd hoped.) It's been a tough week and near the end of the session my Therapist tried to make a couple of jokes and tease me about something. I smiled but I also thought, "What is he doing? Is he sick of the sadness this week has brought?"
Ok, I know what he was doing was getting me ready for the long Holiday weekend. But it is hard not to read more into it. I can't imagine trying to read everything without seeing him. I've said it before, you are very brave.
Posted by Pfinstegg on July 1, 2004, at 23:25:20
In reply to Re: Reading your Therapist's signals » Pfinstegg, posted by DaisyM on July 1, 2004, at 21:13:15
Your T. seems to be saying exactly what mine is saying. He just recently commented that psychoanalysis had completely reversed itself about interactions and enactments between patients and analysts. It used to be, maybe 30 or more years ago, that there weren't supposed to be any of those- and now they are considered the most important thing that happens! It seems hard to believe that I am lying there telling him just what I am feeling and thinking about him, over and over, and he is listening very carefully, reacting quite spontaneously and often according to the thoughts and feelings which my feelings and thoughts produce in him. It is a lot like how a mother and baby interact- heightening all sorts of feelings, and then calming and regulating them. I'm not especially brave at all- he is very kind and trustworthy; if he weren't, I wouldn't be able to do it.
I do know what you mean about having uncomfortable, worrisome endings before weekends. I think it's because we are allowing such young and dependent parts of ourselves to be *there*, and, for those parts, endings and interruptions can seem almost catastrophic. I wasn't aware of how true this was until I saw how he always made a point of talking about them at length. For example, when he went on vacation to Ireland recently, we spent the entire week prior to that talking about how terrible, angry and abandonned I felt that he would do such a thing to me! Then we were able to shake hands and have a positive parting for ten days- it just took a week of work to get to that point! - and even then, it wasn't very easy. I'm just becoming a lot more cognizant and respectful of how powerful these infantile forces are- in me, and I'm assuming, everyone who has had a difficult childhood. I do give him a lot of credit for understanding it so well, and for helping me understand it.
This is the end of the thread.
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