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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 10:42:01
I really respected my T - we had misunderstandings but nothing too bad. I thought she really understood self injury, and me. But it feels like she's turned on me.
I felt really disconnected from the session yesterday. I felt quite good for the first time in a while, and wanted to stay that way. But I came out feeling useless and like I'd wasted the session - and I wanted to cut.
She said she thought I must be cutting because I enjoyed keeping things from other people and I liked the thrill of not being found out, but being close. I cut for the pain and the blood - I hate having these stupid scars to hide all the time.
She didn't understand how I thought SI was helping me cope at the moment. I'd probably be dead without it. She seemed really frustrated and I don't think either of us wanted to be there.
I haven't felt this low for so long, and I hate it :(
Posted by Penny on January 30, 2004, at 10:46:59
In reply to My T turned on me, posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 10:42:01
Hmmm...
How very frustrating for you to feel as though your T doesn't understand the purpose for your SI, especially when you thought she was understanding.
Perhaps she was having an off day? How long have you been seeing her? When do you see her again? I think you should bring this up when you do. Tell her exactly what you told us.
I'm sorry you're hurting. Keep posting and take care of yourself.
(((cubic_me)))
P
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 10:50:07
In reply to My T turned on me, posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 10:42:01
Ugh. I'm sorry. My therapist is just slowly learning about self injury, through me.
Ask her to read this site:
Or maybe print out some links. Especially the Bill of Rights.
There is unfortunately still a lot of ignorance among some therapists about self injury. I think my pdoc thinks it's manipulative. At any rate he seems to think that talking about it would encourage it. But the good thing is that ignorance can be cured. If you're open and honest with her, and if she's willing to do some research, maybe she can come to understand.
Posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 10:54:08
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » cubic_me, posted by Penny on January 30, 2004, at 10:46:59
Maybe she was having an off day - I can't blame her for that. I've been seeing her for about a year on and off (because I'm at uni away from home). I'm seeing her again next week.
I suppose its not even the judgements that she made about me that I mind most, its my reactions to those judgements - why do I let it get to me? I hate it that how I feel can be so heavily influenced by a person who I hardly know and who I only see for 50mins a week.
I'll try and discuss it with her, its just hard to say what I really mean without getting all muddled up in my head.
Posted by Penny on January 30, 2004, at 11:05:32
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » Penny, posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 10:54:08
> I suppose its not even the judgements that she made about me that I mind most, its my reactions to those judgements - why do I let it get to me? I hate it that how I feel can be so heavily influenced by a person who I hardly know and who I only see for 50mins a week.
What I want you to do right now is to try to realize that your reaction to her judgment is perfectly appropriate! You are going to feel however you are going to feel - don't beat yourself up about her judgments getting to you.Even if she was having an off day - you are entitled to feel hurt or offended or let down or misunderstood or whatever it is you feel about that session, her judgment, etc. You are entitled to your feelings.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try to keep things in perspective, but I think it might help if you could be kinder to yourself regarding your feelings about this. I think it's quite normal to let what a therapist says get to you, even tho' you only see her 50 minutes a week. I also think that therapists often forget how even the smallest things they say or do sometimes can have a huge impact on how we feel as their clients. They are important to us. What they think is important to us. Isn't that why we pay them?
I guess what I should say is that therapists shouldn't have 'off days'. :-) yeah, right. But seriously, do you see how you have made this into a wrong that you are responsible for? It's not. You've done nothing wrong.
And I apologize if I'm completely off-base with my interpretation of your email. I am constantly beating myself up for even the smallest things, but it pains me to see others do it.
Take care of YOU.
P
Posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 11:28:53
In reply to Re: My T turned on me, posted by Penny on January 30, 2004, at 11:05:32
You're not off base at all, I know I beat (or cut!) myself up about stuff that isn't really my fault. I suppose I also feel guilty for wasting the session. I was so detached and just couldn't concentrate, my mind was drifting off all over the place. I wish I could just say to her that she is wrong about some of her judgements, but I fear that even if I tell her that, she will still hold those views, and I'd prefer to know what she is really thinking than what she would like me to think she is thinking (if that makes any sense at all).
you take care of YOU too!
Posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 11:32:39
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » cubic_me, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 10:50:07
From what she had said in previous sessions it sounded to me like she knew quite a bit about SI and the reasons behind it. It feels like she thinks everyone else does it for valid reasons, but I do it for a kick or to feel like I am manipulating other people.
I might ask her how much experience she's had of SI next session - or I might chicken out!
Posted by justyourlaugh on January 30, 2004, at 12:25:14
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » Dinah, posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 11:32:39
it sure would be nice if your t treated you as you and not as a cutter..i cant understand why you cut anymore than you can why i do..
we are individuals and all different...
it shouldnt matter if she knows or understands why others do it,,she should try to understand why you do it..
of course we hide it?
cant she see that if we didnt the butterfly net people would be after us!
and yes i do "get a trill" not being locked away in the hospital..
j
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 14:55:19
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » cubic_me, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 10:50:07
> Ugh. I'm sorry. My therapist is just slowly learning about self injury, through me.
>
> Ask her to read this site:
>
> http://selfharm.net/
>
Dinah,
Thanks for posting this. I will be starting to work with someone who cuts next week and I am feeling unprepared. I plan to check out this site. Any other recommendations for me?Anyone else have tips to help me to understand my client better?
Thanks,
gg
Posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 18:20:08
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 14:55:19
I am not a classic self injury case, by any means, but I do know a bit about what it feels like, from talking with friends over the years. What we always talked about was that whatever we were doing that was self destructive, it was an effort at a sort of self-medication. Cutting to relieve a perceived need for a focus to the pain, shooting up because it felt right to hurt oneself with a needle, in my own case it was starving myself and exercising fairly constantly, but it all came down to a sort of a need to be able to identify pain that had never been validated. Do you see what I'm trying to get at?
All of us had a few things in common, but the most common quality amongst us was the fact that we'd experienced pain we couldn't process and that that pain had not been acknowledged by those around us. Self-starvation, self-injury, IV drug abuse -- these were all attempts to express our pain, and to make the pain we'd repressed visible in some way.
I hope that helps, if you can think of any questions that might help with clarity, please ask them.
Posted by jane d on January 30, 2004, at 20:08:36
In reply to My T turned on me, posted by cubic_me on January 30, 2004, at 10:42:01
When you think she misinterpreted something can you tell her that you think she's wrong and why? And if you do tell her does she listen to your reasons? I can understand a therapist getting the wrong idea about motivations - after all it really is a guessing game - but I would hope that any therapist would be willing to change that first guess in a minute after hearing from you.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:40:51
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » gardenergirl, posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 18:20:08
Thank you for sharing that. If I understand you correctly, it is a way to access, express, or try to get rid of pain that has accumulated and has not been validated by some significant other person (i.e. parent, partner, friend, teacher, etc?). SI then is a way to try to release it or access it?
If I understand that correctly, and please correct me if I don't, then would working in therapy to express the pain and having the T validate it be helpful?
gg
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 20:55:13
In reply to What it's like » Racer, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:40:51
I think there are many reasons people self injure. There are more than a few reasons I do it.
I do it because I'm overstimulated and it calms me down. It is often associated with anger for me. And most of the time there is a build up of tension which is discharged by self injury.
Talking about the urges helps me not to act on them. Talking about what else is going on in my life helps too.
The biggest help is that my therapist didn't overreact or threaten to terminate me or anything. And eventually, years really, I offered him the promise to try not to self injure as a gift.
I wish I could offer you more insight. That website is really good.
Think matter of fact. Matter of fact is good. It takes the shame and the need to hide your activities out of the equation.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 21:09:59
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 14:55:19
I used to SI from the time I was about 15 until about last year. I haven't since then :) I did it as a way to release emotions that I couldn't express. I know that in the family I was raised, I couldn't talk back to my mother for fear she would honestly kill me. So, the only way I could release any type of negative emotion was through SI. I wasn't able to express anger at all. I carried that through part of my adulthood, until I learned that I am allowed to express anger or fear in different ways. I remember a friend told my parents that I was cutting myself and they confronted me and I laughed. After that I found others ways to release emotions that were also SI, but didn't leave marks.
I know that since I started therapy with Bubba, I honestly don't feel the need to SI anymore. And we don't even discuss it at all. I think that just having someone who I can be [somewhat] honest with and express my emotions with, and someone who validates my feelings has made a huge impact on my life. Even since everything with my father has been brought out, I haven't once even thought about SI. It's great!
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:13:17
In reply to Re: What it's like » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 20:55:13
Thank you for sharing this. I was hoping my question didn't trigger anyone as I realized after the fact that it could. I really appreciate your willingness to help.
Matter of fact seems right to me. It almost sounds more like DBT, which I am considering with this client. Somehow I manage to be pretty matter of fact when talking about sexual matters with my clients despite my own hangups. Hopefully this will carry over.
Thanks again. I learn so much from you! I should filter some of my tuition to you. :)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:17:18
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 21:09:59
Karen Kay,
Thanks for sharing this. I am so glad that you have come so far with Bubba. It seems like validation is really key. I know that was the theme with a couple of clients I had today who don't SI but who definitely have invalidating environments and inner scars from it.I learn a great deal from you, too. Thanks! Hopefull you will make me a better T someday. One with good fashion sense and a sense of humor. :)
gg
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2004, at 21:26:12
In reply to Re: What it's like » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:13:17
I realized when I was responding to Rod, that some of what I was saying might be useful to you as well. So I addressed the post below to both of you.
It's my pleasure, you know. My pdocs, prior and current, aren't too good with self injury. And I've had to do a lot of training with my therapist. I'm happy to see therapists who don't have knee-jerk recoil responses to the subject.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 21:38:12
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » Karen_kay, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:17:18
Posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 21:52:48
In reply to What it's like » Racer, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 20:40:51
> Thank you for sharing that. If I understand you correctly, it is a way to access, express, or try to get rid of pain that has accumulated and has not been validated by some significant other person (i.e. parent, partner, friend, teacher, etc?). SI then is a way to try to release it or access it?
>Um, I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that any specific person didn't validate the emotions, more that the environment inhibited the expression of strong emotions, usually utilizing shame as a weapon. For most of the women I've talked to about this sort of thing, anger was a big trigger point. Most of us had experienced a situation or situations in which we were hurt, were not protected, and not able to express the pain of that betrayal. Many of us had experienced some sort of sexual trauma -- molestation or rape -- and were told that it was shameful, that we had to pretend it never happened so that no one would find out. Some of us were even told it had never happened.
The end result, though, was generally a feeling of being filled to overflowing with emotions that had to come out somehow. For myself, it was self starvation, so I'll try to tell you something about that. (I do think they come from the same place, just expressed differently.) First, there was a sense of hopelessness and helplessness, a sort of feeling of "please, someone tell me that you SEE me, see what I'm doing to myself, and make me stop!" There was also a sense that I could limit the amount of emotional overload by limiting my food intake. And, of course, I'll be "right" if I can be thin enough. That really was the last part, though, and I knew it even while I was doing it.
Of course, it's not an adaptive defense to the problem, and in my case -- and the cases of some of those other women -- it led to a vicious circle. For the SI women I knew, it usually led to hurting themselves much more because no one said anything about it. For me, I got thinner and thinner, until I was unable to comprehend what people were saying to me about being too thin.
> If I understand that correctly, and please correct me if I don't, then would working in therapy to express the pain and having the T validate it be helpful?
>You know what? If I had to give you advice about dealing with this client, it would be really simple: ask her if she knows of anything that can be helpful to her. Ask her if she wants to talk about it, ask her if she wants to build up to it, and respect her response. Validation doesn't mean saying, "I understand that you're in pain," necessarily, it can be experienced in a lot of different ways.
Speaking for myself, I never trust anyone who says something non-specific. I don't trust the "you'll be just fine" type of comfort, but I do trust "well, you are able to have insights as proven by [x], which is likely to lead to progress [y]" feedback. I guess that's being honest and matter of fact. (Of course, in my case, it's still part of the pathology... Oh, well...)
Good luck.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 21:55:13
In reply to As for that calculator watch.. (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by Karen_kay on January 30, 2004, at 21:38:12
Oh God! Sudden fear that my husband has read my posts as I think he knows my name on this board...
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 22:02:16
In reply to Re: What it's like » gardenergirl, posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 21:52:48
Racer,
Thanks for the additional info. and for helping me to understand.
>
> more that the environment inhibited the expression of strong emotions, usually utilizing shame as a weapon.This is very well put. I think that helps clarify for me.
> The end result, though, was generally a feeling of being filled to overflowing with emotions that had to come out somehow. For myself, it was self starvation, so I'll try to tell you something about that. (I do think they come from the same place, just expressed differently.)I would agree with that. And the way you described that cry to be seen creates a mental and emotional picture in me.
> You know what? If I had to give you advice about dealing with this client, it would be really simple: ask her if she knows of anything that can be helpful to her. Ask her if she wants to talk about it, ask her if she wants to build up to it, and respect her response. Validation doesn't mean saying, "I understand that you're in pain," necessarily, it can be experienced in a lot of different ways.Always the best way to go, but sometimes I forget or get caught up in my own agenda.
>
> Speaking for myself, I never trust anyone who says something non-specific. I don't trust the "you'll be just fine" type of comfort, but I do trust "well, you are able to have insights as proven by [x], which is likely to lead to progress [y]" feedback. I guess that's being honest and matter of fact. (Of course, in my case, it's still part of the pathology... Oh, well...)
If that's pathology, then I share it. I always want to really understand the why's and how's. I rarely take anything on blind faith.Thanks again. It means a lot to me that so many of you are willing to talk about your own painful experiences in order to help me understand.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 22:33:18
In reply to Re: What it's like » Racer, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 22:02:16
(Of course, in my case, it's still part of the pathology... Oh, well...)
>
>
> If that's pathology, then I share it. I always want to really understand the why's and how's.ROTFLMAO! I got a call for a political survey the other day, drove the poor woman off: here she is, reading questions from a form, like "based only on the following statement, would you choose to vote against [x]? 'Candidate [x] did not hold a competitive bidding for construction!' " I'm answering, "I can't tell you, because I don't know the context. Under what circumstances did he not get bids?"
I finally told her that I always did a lot more research on candidates and issues than her survey allowed for, so we might as well bail. I think she was relieved.
Still, it is a method of avoiding emotions. Just call me Spock-ette.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 31, 2004, at 7:58:18
In reply to Re: What it's like » gardenergirl, posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 22:33:18
Spock-ette,
I think I married your twin brother. Ever take the Meyers-Briggs Personality Inventory? My husband scored 20-0 on Thinking versus Feeling. After more than 8 years of marriage, I would bet he's now 18-2. Maybe 2.5.But he's a dear, and the best man I know.
Take care,
gg
Posted by Dinah on January 31, 2004, at 9:00:46
In reply to Re: What it's like » gardenergirl, posted by Racer on January 30, 2004, at 22:33:18
I thought I was the only one who found political calls immensely entertaining. Not for the major things like president or senator. But the small bureaucratic positions. The people calling for them generally have absolutely no idea why they would be ideally qualified for the position, and I generally try to let both of us have a good time while giving them a hint that they need to collect more information before they make calls. :) In the depths of my postpartum depression, I had one caller laughing so hard that she couldn't get out her final question "So, can we count on your vote at the polls?". It even cheered me up.
Posted by cubic_me on February 2, 2004, at 6:25:22
In reply to Re: My T turned on me » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 30, 2004, at 14:55:19
>Any other recommendations for me?
Try these sites, they are the best I've found from a self injurer's perspective, psyke at http://www.psyke.org/ is particularly good, if you want to go into more depth, have a look at the messageboards.
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/injury.html
http://www.self-injury-abuse-trauma-directory.info/Completed%20Files/Self-Injury-Link-Index.htm
http://groups.msn.com/YourNotAloneICut2/mythsaboutselfinjury.msnw
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