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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 0:01:31
perspective? The thought of someone dying who is close to me, or even myself just one day not existing, and every second I am drawing closer to that, is adding a ton to my already existing depression. I would really like to talk about this thanks. (Sorry, I didnt know if this belonged in the psychological or spiritual board)
Posted by ridesredhorses on September 30, 2003, at 9:55:23
In reply to How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 0:01:31
Hey Jonh,
Are you in therapy? I don't recognize your name from previous posts, but I am not a long- timer here.
Do you know the writings of Joseph Campbell? He writes about the intertwined circles of life, sort of. His writing has helped me see life as energy, and that has not really been a conflict with the religious belief I do have. Atoms don't go away when they are split (as in the body from the soul?)...that is when the real energy is tapped... Joseph Campbell. Look him up, if you have not already. Good luck.
Red
Posted by TF on September 30, 2003, at 11:15:57
In reply to Re: How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by ridesredhorses on September 30, 2003, at 9:55:23
I agree, Joseph Campbell makes some goods points... There are things that all human beings share, that make us all the same person in different respects. Each individual (including all life) is a unique combination of these threads.
Posted by JonW on September 30, 2003, at 12:43:57
In reply to How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 0:01:31
> perspective? The thought of someone dying who is close to me, or even myself just one day not existing, and every second I am drawing closer to that, is adding a ton to my already existing depression. I would really like to talk about this thanks. (Sorry, I didnt know if this belonged in the psychological or spiritual board)
Hi John,
Not to long ago I read the book "Plato Not Prozac" by Lou Marinoff. It's about philosophical counseling, and applying philosophy to everyday problems. I'll paste an excerpt concerning death that I found helpful.
--- QUOTE ---
McTaggart argued that there are two ways to conceive of time: the A-series and the B-series. In the A-series, every moment is either past, present, or future. Every past moment used to be a future moment and a present moment. Thus every moment has the property of being past, present, and future -- only at different times. But this is problematic since the terms past, present, and future already embody a conception of time. Now we need to understand how different points "in" time move "through" time. If we assert that past moments are finished, while future moments haven't yet started, then time dissolves into an evermoving present moment. As Chan points out, this isn't especially helpful for coming to terms with death -- it suggests that the present moment is all there is, and you need to be alive to experience it. When you're dead, your clock isn't ticking any more, so there's no time at all for you.By contrast, McTaggart's B-series takes a relational view of time: it asserts that every moment happens either before or after every other moment. When one thing has happened before another, then the things happen in this order for all time; the order of events cannot be altered by time's passage. Thus all events in a B-series are forever fixed in terms of their relation to other events. As Chan points out, this implies a sense of endurance or permanence, a kind of record that cannot be obliterated by subsequent events. If one's life is viewed in just that way, it becomes a thread in the tapestry of the B-series. Even when your life ends, it can never "unhappen." All events, including those of your life, are somehow preserved in the B-series of time. You have a slice of immortality -- and even a thin slice is better than none.
Chan finds this notion very comforting to dying people who do not believe in an afterlife but who cannot easily face the prospect of oblivion. No one lives forever, but one's life is preserved forever in the B-series. Although not everyone is philosophical enough to see how this can make a difference, in Chan's experience with terminally ill patients, it sometimes makes all the difference in the world. People come to better tems with dying when they see that although death ends life, it does not erase a lifetime. And of course you don't need to be at death's door to appreciate that your life is a sequence of events and that even though that sequence may have a final event, the whole isn't obliterated by that event. This is a way of conceptualizing the lasting meaning and impact of your life on the world without relying on belief in a soul that exists outside the physical limits of the body.
--- END QUOTE ---I don't know if that was helpful at all... but I thought I'd share it with you just in case!
Take care,
Jon :)
Posted by DaisyM on September 30, 2003, at 16:13:48
In reply to Re: How do you deal with death from a non religious » jonh kimble, posted by JonW on September 30, 2003, at 12:43:57
I think if you have children this is somewhat easier because you have a physical manifestation of yourself to "prove" your existance. Hopefully, some of your values and beliefs continue on in them.
But, if no kids, then I think you can think of the universal consciousness and the contributions we all make to that. I work with special needs infants and toddlers. The work we do here often doesn't result in measurable changes in the moment but the kindness, loving and giving towards these children gets reflected all around until it is almost palpable...and we all get to bask in it.
All of the things you have done, and will do, resonate in the universal consciousness, the smallest gestures can be the things remembered the longest. I have a friend who is a nurse. She tells me that when she was in school, she was doing her rotations through the hospital, trying to decide what kind of nurse to be. During her maternity rotation, a young mother had a perfectly normal birth and the baby was normal size, etc. The baby died unexpectantly 12 hours later, during my friend's shift. Her experience of grief and sorrow over this baby led her into neonatal nursing where she is now a researcher and has saved countless lives of other babies. Some 10 years later, she was covering at that same hospital in the maternity ward and that same mom was having her fifth baby. My friend went into the mom's room and told her that she believes her first child was put on this earth to help my friend find her path...and save so many other babies.
We are all here for a reason. We just don't know always what it is. Maybe we aren't suppose to.
Posted by Adia on September 30, 2003, at 16:32:28
In reply to Re: How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by DaisyM on September 30, 2003, at 16:13:48
DaisyM,
I just wanted to say that your post brought tears to my eyes...
Thank you for sharing that..
you've touched my heart,
Adia.
> I think if you have children this is somewhat easier because you have a physical manifestation of yourself to "prove" your existance. Hopefully, some of your values and beliefs continue on in them.
>
> But, if no kids, then I think you can think of the universal consciousness and the contributions we all make to that. I work with special needs infants and toddlers. The work we do here often doesn't result in measurable changes in the moment but the kindness, loving and giving towards these children gets reflected all around until it is almost palpable...and we all get to bask in it.
>
> All of the things you have done, and will do, resonate in the universal consciousness, the smallest gestures can be the things remembered the longest. I have a friend who is a nurse. She tells me that when she was in school, she was doing her rotations through the hospital, trying to decide what kind of nurse to be. During her maternity rotation, a young mother had a perfectly normal birth and the baby was normal size, etc. The baby died unexpectantly 12 hours later, during my friend's shift. Her experience of grief and sorrow over this baby led her into neonatal nursing where she is now a researcher and has saved countless lives of other babies. Some 10 years later, she was covering at that same hospital in the maternity ward and that same mom was having her fifth baby. My friend went into the mom's room and told her that she believes her first child was put on this earth to help my friend find her path...and save so many other babies.
>
> We are all here for a reason. We just don't know always what it is. Maybe we aren't suppose to.
>
>
Posted by pixygoth on September 30, 2003, at 16:55:41
In reply to How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 0:01:31
Fritjof Capra is another excellent author. The Web of Life is the book I have in mind.
I feel that since my molecules will mix with the universe when I go, my "mind" molecules will too (my consciousness).. so maybe I can mix with the universal consciousness and 'learn' the secrets of Life the Universe and Everything (hopefully not "42"...)
S
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 30, 2003, at 19:41:45
In reply to Re: How do you deal with death from a non religious » jonh kimble, posted by JonW on September 30, 2003, at 12:43:57
> Not to long ago I read the book "Plato Not Prozac" by Lou Marinoff.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 22:20:59
In reply to How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 0:01:31
Thanks you all so much! This is certainly more than I expected. These are great points. Im 19, and I dont many 19 year olds think about this much, and the thought of death is really a new one that i havent had a long time to explore. On the thought of time, time may be what will kill me, but it is also what brought me to life in the first place. It is the fact that death exists that new life has to come, and hence me and you. Life without death is impossible. Also, maybe your right that having kids will change the way I look at death (seeing a part of me live on.) again thank you all so much
Posted by DaisyM on October 1, 2003, at 0:50:47
In reply to Re: How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 22:20:59
Philosophically it is all interesting to ponder, but don't spend too much time on it. If I can share, my husband has two serious chronic illness -- Diabetes (43 years, he got it when he was 1) and Adult-onset Asthma about 12 years ago. He is falling apart, major systems are going and we as a family must cope with all of it everyday. My 12-year-old has probably struggled the most, and in fact, after months of therapy for anxiety, he finally was able to talk about his father's impending death...not today or tomorrow, but most likely in less than 5 years, if that long. His therapist gave him the best advice on a kid level I've heard: "re: Nintendo. In life, we don't have the "god code" so we don't get unlimited life. So make every shot, every move count. Use the time you have to do the most you can."
If you think about it, it isn't "beating" the game we all like so much, it is playing it.Please think about living...at least as much as dying. (OK, so it's a mom thing!)*smile*
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 2, 2003, at 21:39:47
In reply to How do you deal with death from a non religious, posted by jonh kimble on September 30, 2003, at 0:01:31
John,
You have a great deal on your mind. These are things that all of us will come to face whether or not we want to. One thing that helped me is that I'm not the first to need to think about it.
One book that helped me a great deal was one that we studied in High School. The book is "On Death and Dying" by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. It deals with the stages that we all go through while dealing with dying.
One other thing that helped was the words of a friend. His Father had died, and he was taking it with great difficulty. He was walking one day, and a native american man stopped him and mentioned that my friend was looking exceptionally gloomy. My friend went through the story of His Dad's death, and the Native Man told him that in his culture, we are never as close to someone as we are after their passing. When we pass, we become again a part of the earth and the air and the water and our spirit spreads out to everywhere. We all exist surrounded by those whom we love.
I hope this helps some,
Dee.
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