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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 20:26:36
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2003, at 17:14:22
I agree with you guys that the therapy relationship is unlike any other. I am really facinated by it--I try to read everything I can about the therap. alliance, transference, etc. It seems that *most* of what's out there (with the exception of "In Session") is heavy duty psychoanalytic and not incredibly helpful. I think there is so much more research to be done on the topic--what exactly is it about the interaction that makes it work?
Also, I agree that most good therapists care or even love their clients, but in a professional way (if there is such a thing). One thing that gave me even more respect for my therapist was realizing that it must be tough for her too b/c her needs can't always be met by our relationship either. A few months ago, I was in a cranky period and just blew off therapy. Even tho she was angry and I know she wanted to express it, we spent all the follow up time talking about my feelings (as we should). But I found myself thinking what a sort of unnatural sacrifice therapists have to make & how draining that must be for them. Don't remind me... I know that I pay a healthy sum for that kind of treatment, but still...
Posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2003, at 0:48:48
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 20:26:36
>>>Even tho she was angry and I know she wanted to express it, we spent all the follow up time talking about my feelings (as we should). But I found myself thinking what a sort of unnatural sacrifice therapists have to make & how draining that must be for them. <<<
no need to worry about them... they all probably have their own therapist where they go complain about us!
But back on topic, I feel so left out of this thread. I've never had romantic feelings toward my same-sex therapist. I've never felt maternal type transference either. I barely think about her as a person. Am I missing something?
Posted by allisonf on July 17, 2003, at 9:53:32
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2003, at 0:48:48
I went to my current therapist for 2 years, stopped for 2, went again for 1, stopped for 3 and have now been back for almost 2. In all that time, I never had any strong transference type feelings for her (that I noticed) until this past year & 1/2. I think the dev't of it in my case has something to do with the recent diagnosis my bpII, the bpII itself, and the more vulnerable state I've been in. I don't think it really speaks to the quality of the therapy experience (therapy was really helpful for me even in those years when I didn't have strong feelings for my therapist), but more where you are personally, why you are in therapy, etc.
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2003, at 10:02:31
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No., posted by Tabitha on July 17, 2003, at 0:48:48
Maybe it depends on your level of development, Tabitha. Maybe you are past that transference stage. :) Or maybe it's how you view her - as a consultant maybe?
There was a part of me that just sees him as a therapist, and thinks he could easily be replaced by another one, maybe even a better one. But there's another part of me that thinks he's magic. That I feel bad and see him and feel better. Definitely a very early childhood maternal transference.
For what it's worth, I tried a couple of times to use him as an erotic fantasy. I mean, it's almost de rigeur to fall in love with your therapist, right? But it didn't work, *at all*. Yuck. It just felt icky. So erotic transference I just can't do with him - it feels too incestuous. But maybe a maternal transference is just a different way of falling in love.
Posted by BBoo on July 17, 2003, at 11:12:32
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on July 17, 2003, at 10:02:31
Hi, I can relate so well to all of you. I was SO attached to both my therapist (female) and doctor (male) that when I lost them 3 years ago, I almost died. My therapist decided to move, and I decided I couldn't live without her and tried to kill myself. I ended up in ICU. While I was there, my doctor "fired" me. I spend the next 4 weeks in the psych hospital totally devastated. I still get very upset now when I talk about it. I had been with them for over 5 years. I felt like they were the only ones who cared if I lived or died...
Posted by Penny on July 17, 2003, at 12:22:23
In reply to I can relate, posted by BBoo on July 17, 2003, at 11:12:32
Your doctor 'fired' you????
I suppose I can *sort of* see due to liability issues how it can make a doc not want to work with you anymore, but I didn't realize that one would actually stop seeing you as a patient due to a suicide attempt. As though THAT would help matters...
Oh my...
Well, I'm certainly glad you survived that ordeal. Did you find new clinicians you are happy with?
Posted by Dinah on July 18, 2003, at 8:23:20
In reply to I can relate, posted by BBoo on July 17, 2003, at 11:12:32
I can relate totally. That is my greatest fear - that my therapist will move away.
I have a recurring nightmare where I enter his office and there's another person there. He introduces her as his replacement.
I'm really sorry for the loss of your therapist and the betrayal of your doctor.
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 0:57:31
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » pinkeye, posted by allisonf on July 16, 2003, at 2:56:35
I just wanted to see if there are any follow up comments with this thread about communicating these feelings to the therapist. I can't say I'm in love with mine at all, because I really just refuse to think about it, but I can say I love her, and our upcoming termination (due to me having to move) is making it more necessary, but not easier, to talk about what I'm feeling with regard to the relationship. I have just about given up on it however.
I had never really thought about my feelings being "transference" until I realized last week that I hadn't felt this miserable since I left my ex. And though I've phrased it that I left my ex, which I did, the separation was due to a long-lasting and continual betrayal (of which I was aware and, for way too long, hoped for change) and ultimate refusal to change. Though neither of us wanted to be parted from each other, I know we both ultimately felt rejection -- my ex because I was the one to leave, and me because my ex refused to change the things that hurt me. And I'm realizing right now, for the first time, that emotionally the situation is similar to being forced to terminate due to a necessary move. And transference or no, it is true that my therapist has taken over in some ways the emotional role of my ex, which was the reason I went into therapy.
If you've had any luck talking with your therapist about your feelings, I'd love some suggestions on how to approach it. Morgen.
Posted by noa on July 24, 2003, at 6:07:30
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » allisonf, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 0:57:31
Printing posts to show or read to therapists is something that a number of babblers have done when they don't know how to express something to their therapists.
Print out your post and bring it to her. I think your insight about the association you made between the feelings toward the therapist and the feelings about the break-up, is fantastic!
Posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 7:42:41
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » allisonf, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 0:57:31
Noa's right. I always used to print out my posts and bring them to my therapist. Now we've gotten so that I rarely feel uncomfortable telling him anything, but at one time it was very helpful.
And what I discovered was that it was *always* better to share things than to keep them to myself. It hurts so much to keep things to yourself. (Assuming you have a good, professional, therapist.)
And, as Noa said, good work on identifying the parallels in your feelings.
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:05:03
In reply to Re: Same sex therapist? No No. » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 7:42:41
Fine, I won’t write you, I’ll write thin air.
I will remind you that you were the one who initially offered for me to write you when I was upset. Granted, you didn’t have it in mind that I would be writing to complain about you. But turning me away when I do so points out to me that you may very well be in part the problem concerning my inability to talk with you about our relationship. You get defensive. I’ve seen it happen in the office. It probably just happened over email. There was no misunderstanding, there was nothing to misunderstand, I was just venting, again. Not only was your reason disingenuous, but you also picked one hell of a time to make me experience my first rejection from my therapist. I actually thought to myself Wednesday night, when you hadn’t answered my email, oh good… she’s helping me do what I said I wanted to do in my last email… put this whole thing away and not think about it until I’m done doing the work I need to do. Apparently, not the case.
But that’s fine. You need to take care of you and I understand that, and I can certainly understand how being angry with you over e-mails can be too burdensome, and I know you’re not getting paid for it. But my email said I was scared. It said I was concerned. It said I wanted you to be concerned. It said things are not good. It didn’t specifically say I was suicidal, but since when would I ever specifically say that. Point is, you relied on my “highly functional form of coping” that you’ve mentioned so frequently lately. You relied on it, just like everyone else does. And maybe your right, surely I’ll pull through just like I always have before – see, now I’m relying on it too. But what no one seems to realize, or perhaps seems to care, is that I might not pull through. It is actually possible for me to fail at something.
Problem is, I was absolutely unable to communicate my anger to you in person. You just eliminated my easiest mode of communication, making me believe you’d rather I not communicate at all. You get your wish. I’m not coming back, I’m not going to answer your emails, and I’m not going to go through some sort of sadistic goodbye session. And not only that, but I’m leaving with anger and pain and hatred in my heart, in part because I know I’m only hurting myself, and it’s a stupid thing to do. But somehow its just a little bit satisfying to think that at least you’ll have the knowledge that you failed me miserably, and that I’m going to hurt about this for a long time.
And I know you don’t deserve it. Somehow, I can’t force that to matter to me and change how I feel. Call it transference, because I’m sure that’s what it is, but somehow its as if you _are_ my ex. And like my ex, further contact with you is painful and unwanted. And emotionally, I am right back where I was when I sought out counseling in the first place, making me feel that the past year and more has been not only worthless, but destructive. All's unwell that ends unwell.
Posted by fallsfall on July 24, 2003, at 20:21:46
In reply to Self-indulgent rant to therp (very long), posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:05:03
Wow. I'm so impressed. Did you send that?
There are so many things I should want to say to my ex-therapist, but it is so intimidating to me that I can't even think what they are.
Do you feel better?
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:56:12
In reply to Re: Self-indulgent rant to therp (very long) » Morgen, posted by fallsfall on July 24, 2003, at 20:21:46
I'm ranting about a new prohibition on email communication -- that _would_ be pretty gutsy to ignore her prohibition and send that email back to her. But I'm more passive-aggressive than that. Tonight I just want to prove to her, eventually, that that was an unfortunate decision.
Morgenada
Posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 21:18:25
In reply to No no, I didn't send it. » fallsfall, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 20:56:12
What happened? I thought she was ok with the email and took responsibility for letting you down? Did something happen since then? She's prohibited you from emailing her when it was allowed in the past?
I'm sorry. I'm confused...
(and kind of glad that i've always gotten mad at my therapist over the phone or in person, and that he's always remained true to his commitment to our therapy and our therapeutic relationship.)
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 22:14:48
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 21:18:25
Apparently she was okay with one angry e-mail, but not with two. I sent her a second e-mail along the lines of one of the posts I made here, about how it was really dissapointing to me to hear her accept blame because I was secretly hoping she had some sort of magical plan she hadn't let me in on, and really wasn't failing me at all.
Actually, my second email wasn't really very angry at all, just sad and dissapointed (and therefore, I admit, blameful, but to a lesser degree) and upset. But clearly, it was too much.
I got this very formal email, that from here on out I'm to only use email for scheduling issues as it has become a source of misunderstanding. Now, I know I am really just hurt, but that makes me so angry! She writes two-liner responses to my emails (at the most!), which is fine, I'm really just writing to vent and feel heard and I've never expected a lengthy reply from her, but I certainly don't think I've misunderstood anything in them. This is why I think her reason is stupid and dishonest -- really, she just doesn't want to deal with my emails anymore.
I think I've mentioned my difficulty with rejection.... I know I'm being overly sensitive, but I'm still really hurt over it.
So I found myself a masseuse and scheduled a massage for tomorrow. I've never had one before, but I am so upset and I just want some sort of healing contact where I won't have to talk about why I'm upset.
Morgen
Posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 22:33:03
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » Morgen, posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 21:18:25
Maybe she's just frustrated that her first email didn't pacify me....
Posted by Dinah on July 24, 2003, at 22:41:08
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » Dinah, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 22:33:03
Well, I hate to sound like a Pollyanna, but maybe her reason was more therapeutic.
Perhaps she feels you're using the emails to avoid talking to her directly. And that it would be more productive to say these things face to face. Maybe she feels that dialog is more suited to the expression of this sort of feeling.
Just an idea... (since you said she's been a really good therapist)
Posted by noa on July 25, 2003, at 20:03:58
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » Dinah, posted by Morgen on July 24, 2003, at 22:14:48
>So I found myself a masseuse and scheduled a massage for tomorrow. I've never had one before, but I am so upset and I just want some sort of healing contact where I won't have to talk about why I'm upset.
COOL!
I love massages and find them extremely healing. I wish I could have them more often.
Posted by Morgen on July 25, 2003, at 23:10:58
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » Morgen, posted by noa on July 25, 2003, at 20:03:58
Got my massage today, it was great. Definitely less stressed.
Still wondering, though, if its totally unheard of and/or ridiculous to go see a different therapist due to a transference crisis with the first... what do you think?
Morgenada
Posted by Dinah on July 26, 2003, at 5:43:42
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it., posted by Morgen on July 25, 2003, at 23:10:58
Not at all, but generally they'll send you back to the first. (Or so has been my experience.) And since you can't go back to the first, I'd try to hash it out with her to begin with. Of course, since you're moving, the therapist couldn't send you back, and so would work with you on leftover transference feelings. So yes, it certainly isn't unusual to go to a therapist to work over issues left over from a previous therapist.
(But if you look at Psycho-Social Babble or Administration, you'll see plenty of examples of how the written word can easily be misunderstood. And if you read about online therapy, you'll see cautions about the same thing. Maybe that's all your therapist was trying to say. When do you next see her? Can you squeeze in a bit of time to try to talk of this?)
Posted by fallsfall on July 26, 2003, at 9:43:06
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it., posted by Morgen on July 25, 2003, at 23:10:58
During a transference crisis (after struggling for months with my therapist), I saw my pdoc and talked about it. That was marginally helpful. Then as it got worse I went to see an old group therapist (without telling my regular therapist). The group therapist was VERY helpful. She calmed me down, let me know that it wasn't an unusual situation and that these things often worked out just fine, and identified a theme for me. That meant that I could concentrate on working on the theme and wasn't so overwhelmed. She was happy to see me once, but told me that if I wanted to see her again that I would have to have my therapist's permission. This group therapist was originally a referral from my regular therapist - I saw them at the same time (years ago) - one for individual, one for group. When I saw my regular therapist I told her that I had seen the group therapist (and the pdoc). She gave me permission to see either one again if I wanted.
In general, I think you have to work transference things out with your therapist, but getting a second perspective is sometimes helpful. Could you ask you therapist to refer you to someone for that second perspective? (I was most afraid that my therapist would think I was going "over her head", or trying to find someone who would join with me in "ganging up" on her.)
I guess I would suggest that you tell your therapist that you need to talk to someone who has some distance from the problem. Have her suggest someone, or you suggest someone.
Good luck. This is not fun.
Posted by allisonf on July 27, 2003, at 16:10:32
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it., posted by Morgen on July 25, 2003, at 23:10:58
Morgen, Sorry I missed all this being out of town this week. It sounds like your emotions are running very high with respect to your therapist (understandably given your move), and it sounds like hers are equally as high if she is doing things like changing her e-mail policy and not proactively calling or seeing you to address the issues she has with it. But I agree with what everyone has said about face to face communication being the best thing. This can be tough tho. I have definitely tried to discuss my most difficult feelings with my therapist in therapy and there are certain places I can see she is a little afraid of going. Mostly she hangs on and brings down the emotional level, but one time she did end the session early (first time ever) and she looked pretty upset. I wish I had more helpful things to say.
About going to another therapist to deal with the original therapist--you are really in the best position to do that assuming you will be starting with someone new after your move. But I would definitely try to work out some of it with your old therapist. I have been on the verge of a new therapist so many times, but I truly believe patterns of behavior repeat themselves unless addressed. I have always thought if I found a new therapist instead of dealing with this one head on, I would just fall in love with her too. In the same painful way...
Best of luck to you. A
Posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 23:22:02
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » Morgen, posted by allisonf on July 27, 2003, at 16:10:32
Thank you for your note... I appreciate your thoughts. Its nice to have your perspective on the email situation, because I keep going back and forth on why she did that.... I keep hoping it _is_ only anger/emotion (so long as its temporary), because then she's more likely to invite me to use it again. I don't know how I can lose her _and_ email, and everyone else in my life.
I'll be out of town the next two days and trying not to think of this. Don't have to make a decision on whether or not I'm going to face her til later next week. I'm sure I'll freak out about it more then. Take care everyone.
Morgenada
P.S... a question for everyone's consideration. Do your therapists ever hug you? My best friend had three different therapists at different points in her life(two psychologists, one with just a masters (not sure what the title is in that case)), and they always hugged her at the end of the session. Mine never has, but I'm wondering if that's because psychologists generally don't, or because they generally don't when they have a person "oozing" with transference potential on their hands. (Dinah, you're right, that's not a very compassionate phrase). Thoughts?
Posted by Dinah on July 28, 2003, at 4:33:31
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » allisonf, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 23:22:02
Nope, no hugs or physical contact of any kind. He might if I asked I guess, but I don't like to be touched. Once I asked him for a handshake and he gave it.
Posted by fallsfall on July 28, 2003, at 10:42:11
In reply to Re: No no, I didn't send it. » allisonf, posted by Morgen on July 27, 2003, at 23:22:02
No hugs. 8 1/2 years and no handshake.
My new therapist shook my hand the first day as I was leaving, but hasn't done it again.
I think there is lots of room for getting into trouble with hugs - from sexual to maternal. The books are full of stories of problems, but there doesn't seem to be a blanket prohibition (like there is for sexual activity). It seems from their accounts that once it starts it is hard to stop.
I would have done anything for a hug from my first therapist. I was in turmoil over whether I could ask for a hug at our last session. But we never had the last session so it ended up not being a problem.
Usually Master's therapists are MSW - Master of Social Work. I don't think the degree would matter in the hug/not hug debate. Possibly the type of therapy (CBT, Psychodynamic, etc) would influence it.
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