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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mommyron on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:04
I'm happy to share my personal experience of the nutritional intervention that's helped me (you asked on the "Inositol for bi-bolar" thread). But first of all, I have to say I am VERY big on the concept of bio-individuality. Our bodies are just different and there doesn't seem to be a one size fits all approach for anything from mental health to weight loss. Bummer. (I was just reading on the "lamictal rapid cycling" thread of several people having success with fasting, which fascinates me. It throws my biochemistry all out of whack, so it's not for me. And yet it is an answer for others...)
The lifestyle/nutrition approach that has helped me the most is enough/a lot of sleep (8 hours minimum); regular exercise, enough protein (20 mg or more at each meal), NO sugar. Fresh vegetable juice too, whenever I can get it (I'm too lazy to make my own). The supplements that help me, in relation to depression, are green tea (threanine binds to glutamate receptors), B-vitamins (200 mcg of a good co-enzymated B-complex), and a high quality multi-vitamin. I also increased B6 & added manganese to pull down my own glutamate level (it's very high). I'm about to also add glycine, which I am hugely deficient in. Not sure if it will make a difference in mood, but I'm comfortable adding it in with lab work to validate I basically have none! Otherwise, I am not big on supplementing amino acids, especially in large amounts.
I would love to hear what has worked for other people too?
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:04
In reply to Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by mommyron on February 14, 2010, at 15:19:40
Well, first of all how do you know your glutamate levels are high?
>I also increased B6 & added manganese to pull down my own glutamate level (it's very high). I'm about to also add glycine, which I am hugely deficient in.
How do you know you are deficient in gylcine? Did you know that glycine is a NDMA receptor agonist - meaning it increases glutamate levels?
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:04
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by linkadge on February 14, 2010, at 15:26:36
Thanks for the thread. I have taken 50mg of B6 for many years for water retention, magnesium citrate, CA & MG with K and D2. Extended release c 2000mg a day. A plant based MVI for women. Both the bone one and Mvi are by new chapters all plant based. Oh the bone one also has stotium. Big in Europe. Stopped soy and whey are different opinions on hormones. Thanks again. Love Phillipa
Posted by janejane on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:04
In reply to Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by mommyron on February 14, 2010, at 15:19:40
Thanks so much for the info, mommyron! I also find lots of protein helps me, and I've been trying to avoid sugar as well. (I think hypoglycemia is a problem for me.) It's tough, though, being a former sugar addict. It's also been tough to get enough sleep since the prozac I'm taking now is giving me insomnia, and getting enough exercise has always been a challenge. I do agree that everyone is different, but I do like comparing notes.
The B6 and manganese stuff is interesting. I've tried supplementing with aminos in the past, and never got it to work, so it's interesting to see that you're not a big fan. It seemed like even small amounts of 5-HTP and tryptophan eased the depression at first, but after a while starting causing anxiety. It was weird.
I drink iced green tea like water (I make it pretty weak), and I have matcha when I feel anxious, to calm me. It works better for me than a theanine supplement I tried, which basically did nothing for me except possibly give me a neck ache (maybe it was coincidental).
Do you happen to know anything about copper deficiency? I asked my doc to get tested since I had read about copper excess and wondered whether I had it, but surprise, it turned out my serum copper was low. I supplemented an extra couple mg per day for 3 months, and tested it again, and it was even lower! (Not drastically so, but below the normal range.) The first time the doctor also tested my zinc and it was low normal. I'm not sure what's going on. I have an appointment next month and am wondering if I should ask for other mineral tests. I read iron deficiency and copper deficiency often go together and that's something I've never checked. Part of me wonders whether I'm drinking too much green tea since I read it can interfere with iron, which made me think maybe it can lower copper too. What do you think?
May I ask what multi you take? I usually go with Rainbow Light (one of the once daily ones) or Twin Lab Daily One. But I feel like the high amounts of B vitamins in them make me feel a little edgy.
Oh, and do you happen to know what can cause peeling lips (exfoliative cheilitis)? I've had this since childhood. I've read that it could be iron or B2 (is there a test for B vitamins?), or possibly systemic candida. Do you know of other possibilities? The only thing that I thought helped a little was fish oil but I couldn't tolerate it very well since it also made me feel anxious, plus it made my skin very oily. I tried krill too, and it did the same thing. I keep thinking this symptom must be a clue to what's going on with me, but I haven't been able to figure it out.
Sorry for so many questions. I'm so pleased to be in the presence of a nutrition expert, so I want to pick your brain. I hope you don't mind too much. ;-)
Posted by mommyron on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:05
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by linkadge on February 14, 2010, at 15:26:36
Dear Linkadge,
I know my glutamate level is very high (& glycine is very low) from lab work. I think glycine is an antogonist with glutamate for the same binding site, so it would actually inhibit the glutamate uptake. But I am quite ignorant in genetic/neurotransmitter expression, so I could be way off!
Posted by bulldog2 on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:05
In reply to Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by mommyron on February 14, 2010, at 15:19:40
> I'm happy to share my personal experience of the nutritional intervention that's helped me (you asked on the "Inositol for bi-bolar" thread). But first of all, I have to say I am VERY big on the concept of bio-individuality. Our bodies are just different and there doesn't seem to be a one size fits all approach for anything from mental health to weight loss. Bummer. (I was just reading on the "lamictal rapid cycling" thread of several people having success with fasting, which fascinates me. It throws my biochemistry all out of whack, so it's not for me. And yet it is an answer for others...)
> The lifestyle/nutrition approach that has helped me the most is enough/a lot of sleep (8 hours minimum); regular exercise, enough protein (20 mg or more at each meal), NO sugar. Fresh vegetable juice too, whenever I can get it (I'm too lazy to make my own). The supplements that help me, in relation to depression, are green tea (threanine binds to glutamate receptors), B-vitamins (200 mcg of a good co-enzymated B-complex), and a high quality multi-vitamin. I also increased B6 & added manganese to pull down my own glutamate level (it's very high). I'm about to also add glycine, which I am hugely deficient in. Not sure if it will make a difference in mood, but I'm comfortable adding it in with lab work to validate I basically have none! Otherwise, I am not big on supplementing amino acids, especially in large amounts.
> I would love to hear what has worked for other people too?What kind of doctor is supervising this diet? I'm assuming this person is in the field of alternative medicine. Also is this person covered by medical insurance? Thanks and good luck.
Posted by mommyron on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:05
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....) » mommyron, posted by janejane on February 15, 2010, at 11:43:21
Dear Janejane,
No no no!!! I am not a nutrition expert, not nearly, please don't think I am one!
The peeling lips...it sounds like you've tried a few things. Have you done allergy elimination?
I take VitaSynergy for Women by the Synergy Company. Only available directly from the company, online. They're not cheap!
I think more people are likely to have too much copper than not enough. As far as lab work, serum copper is not enough information--if you also test your ceroluplasmin you can calculate what your free copper is. Zinc chelates copper (they compete for absorption). If you are a vegetarian, your zinc can be low because it is low in vegetarian foods, and also gets bound by phytates in grains and beans. Maybe you should be taking a good multi-mineral chelate?
Posted by mommyron on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:05
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by bulldog2 on February 15, 2010, at 18:27:40
Dear Bulldog2 (I like your name!),
I have a psychiatrist, and I work with a holistic nutritionist on general health issues. Insurance covers the psychiatrist but not the nutritionist.
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:05
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by mommyron on February 15, 2010, at 18:34:55
Gylcine is a NMDA agonist (as opposed to magnesium and zinc with are NMDA antagonists). Thus, it can raise glutamate levels.
Also, I don't mean to disrespect holistic approaches but when they measure urinary levels of neurotransmitters and metabolites this is not an accurate indication of the CNS activity of the neurotransmitters.
I.e. low levels of serotonin metabolites does not mean low CNS serotonin, infact the opposite can be true.
Linkadge
Posted by mommyron on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:06
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by linkadge on February 15, 2010, at 19:00:37
What is your feeling about glycine supplementation? I would love some input... (:
Posted by janejane on February 21, 2010, at 13:06:15
In reply to , posted by on December 31, 1969, at 18:00:00
I'm not a vegetarian. I do drink filtered water, I think someone in another thread mentioned this could be bad because I don't get some minerals that way. (Tap water here tastes horrible, though, so I feel I must filter it.) I always make sure to take the copper supplement away from my multi, which has 15 mg zinc in it. Most supplements I take with breakfast, but I do the copper at lunch or dinner.
I will ask to test ceroluplasmin when I go to the doctor next month. Do you think I should also ask about ferritin, and other mineral tests? Should I hold off supplementing with more copper until after I get the results?
By the way, I really haven't experimented much as far as trying to treat the peeling lips. It's something I've been meaning to ask the doctor about but somehow we always run out of time before I can get to it. I read about the iron and B2 myself but didn't think it would be a good idea to supplement without checking to see if I'm deficient first. I've never tried allergy elimination. Is that the same as an elimination diet?
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2010, at 13:06:15
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....) » mommyron, posted by janejane on February 16, 2010, at 9:36:34
I don't really have anything against supplementation with gylcine, but...
One should be able to obtain all the vitamins and mineral one needs from food. I know what sounds obstinent, but there is good reason for the recomendation.
Deficiancies rarely exist in iscolation. If you are low in a particular nutrient it may be because you are not getting enough of a particular food group, or the food group you're eating is not nutritionally dense enough.
There is so much more to a ballanced diet then the nutrients themselves. Many of the plant phyochemicals in food help the body preserve and effectively utilise nutrients.
I believe the body manufactures glycine in the presense of sufficent b6. Oral conteceptives can depleat b6, so supplementation may be necessary.
Yet, if a wholistic test said you were low in b6, I would still ask your GP to order thorough lab work. I saw a 60 minutes special on how wholistic lab work can vary dramatically from one store to another. Ie. one test can say you are low in b6 and the next might say you are high on b6.
You must understand, there is a) no accountability for their tests and b) they are trying to sell you something.
As mentioned, blood levels of a nutrient do not necessarily correspond to the CNS activity of the substance.
For instance, you may have high blood levels of serotonin but very low synaptic levels of serotonin. There is no way to measure the activity in the CNS.
IMHO, the urine (or hair) tests that are done by wholistic practitioners are only useful in that they sell supplements. If these tests were acurate predictiors of clinical improvement with one nutrient or another, they would be offered by GP's. A good GP will look for likely deficiencies such as b6, iron, or b12 (in the elderly).
I dunno.
Linkadge
Posted by janejane on February 21, 2010, at 13:06:15
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....), posted by linkadge on February 16, 2010, at 13:15:24
> One should be able to obtain all the vitamins and mineral one needs from food. I know what sounds obstinent, but there is good reason for the recomendation.
What do you think of this idea that produce grown today is not as nutritious as it used to be? New pesticides, high-yield GMOs etc. allow farmers to work the same land harder to produce more food, but it is less nutritious, and the soil becomes depleted in the process.
Recently I saw a piece that compared mineral levels in produce from today versus the 30s (not sure that's the right decade, but something like that) and in most cases, the values were much less. I think the link was in digg or you may be able to google it. I think there are old threads about this topic in the babble archives too.
OK, this is not the article I was referring to, but it popped up in google and gives a summary:
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1880145,00.html
Posted by bulldog2 on February 21, 2010, at 13:06:15
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....) » linkadge, posted by janejane on February 16, 2010, at 15:41:54
> > One should be able to obtain all the vitamins and mineral one needs from food. I know what sounds obstinent, but there is good reason for the recomendation.
>
> What do you think of this idea that produce grown today is not as nutritious as it used to be? New pesticides, high-yield GMOs etc. allow farmers to work the same land harder to produce more food, but it is less nutritious, and the soil becomes depleted in the process.
>
> Recently I saw a piece that compared mineral levels in produce from today versus the 30s (not sure that's the right decade, but something like that) and in most cases, the values were much less. I think the link was in digg or you may be able to google it. I think there are old threads about this topic in the babble archives too.
>
> OK, this is not the article I was referring to, but it popped up in google and gives a summary:
>
> http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1880145,00.htmlThere are places that sell good quality organic food. You pay a little more but the food is free of hormones, pesticides and crops are properly rotated.
People in different parts of the world who have the greatest life spans and have good health basically follow peasant style diets. If you can find stores that sell these foods that is your best bet for good health.
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2010, at 13:06:15
In reply to Re: Nutrition + depression (janejane asked....) » linkadge, posted by janejane on February 16, 2010, at 15:41:54
>What do you think of this idea that produce >grown today is not as nutritious as it used to >be? New pesticides, high-yield GMOs etc. allow >farmers to work the same land harder to
Well, to some extent I agree, but I think it depends on many factors. I do think that in certain locations, mineral content has dropped but I don't necessarily think this is the case overall.
A lot of people abide by that mentality and yet eat crap (sorry to be blunt). I would say the typical american diet falls short on many nutrients, but with a few good habbits there is no reason anybody can't get all they need from food:
For instance. According to the nutritional information on some of the foods I eat (non fortified foods):
My breakfast (2 omega3 eggs and 2 slices of country harvest bread with pb) contains a total of:
vitamin a: 20%
Iron 24%
thiamin: 40%
vitamin e: 122%
riboflavin: 35%
niacin: 57%
b6: 17%
folate 82%
b12: 168%
magnesium: 40%
selenium: 70%
zinc: 30%By lunch (an orange a carrot, 1 cup of kidney beans and a glass of milk) would put me at:
vitamin a: 242%
vitamin d: 25%
Vitamin C: 166%
Iron 50%
thiamin: 65%
vitamin e: 122%
riboflavin: 35%
niacin: 57%
b6: 17%
folate 139%
calcium: 40%
b12: 188%
magnesium: 70%
selenium: 70%
moybdenum: 177%
zinc: 30%An afternoon, a snack of a banana a piece of toast and a glass of milk would put me at:
vitamin a: 244%
vitamin d: 50%
Vitamin C: 166%
Iron 56%
thiamin: 73%
vitamin e: 126%
riboflavin: 67%
niacin: 79%
b6: 50%
folate 153%
calcium: 40%
b12: 212%
magnesium: 82%
selenium: 70%
moybdenum: 177%
zinc: 45%If I have a piece of salmon (medium), brown rice and a cup of chickpeas for dinner I will have a total of:
vitamin a: 249%
vitamin d: 758%
Vitamin C: 166%
Iron 112%
thiamin: 97%
vitamin e: 141%
riboflavin: 123%
niacin: 243%
b6: 129%
folate 188%
calcium: 140%
b12: 542%
magnesium: 156%
selenium: 294%
moybdenum: 177%
zinc: 85%ok, so I am a little low in thiamin and zinc. A good choice of a snack would fix this.
or
Note, none of the foods I eat are fortified. Changing to fortified grains, or sprinking wheat germ on my salmon would put me well over for thiamin and zinc.
This is not eating a whole lot of food, but it is healty choices each step of the way.
Linkadge
Posted by Lao Tzu on February 24, 2010, at 10:33:11
In reply to Re: Nutrition depression (janejane asked....) » mommyron, posted by janejane on February 21, 2010, at 13:06:15
There is such a thing as a hair mineral analysis to check for mineral levels, but I wouldn't rely exclusively on this test. It is a good one, though. Don't supplement with too much copper until you find out if you are low in it. Too much copper can exacerbate depression symptoms if you are high copper. A little zinc and manganese are essential for good mental health. Some people need higher zinc dosages than others.
Posted by willey on February 26, 2010, at 1:35:41
In reply to Redirect: Nutrition, posted by Dr. Bob on February 21, 2010, at 13:08:32
Link your are right on the money the whole thread.
RDA,recoemedned allowance of nutrients are low,and ur body will get them,unless you have a specific deficancy such as b12 found by your gp,many of the nutrients your mentioned are not needed if you instead have a blanced diet,fact is people even get the rda from eating crappy.
GLycine has both excitatory and inhibitory actions,so its not something a mere supplment is gonna help,if it were designated a to be a true asset,it would be made a drug,and attacthed to a carrier to perfrom at a specific site.
In fact dmg is di methy glycine,glycine attatched to di methly group,which then carres it into the brain,its very potent,fda took aim at it for a med,company stood up and pushed back,it is extremly useful in autism.
I have no idea why you wold not have a gp do these studies but rather a holistic i dont know what else follows,doc,person,dunno.I think many of us traveled the road of natural in our stuggle,i id,and my holistic doc cost me 300 bucks,and no insurance almost never covers them,why should they?
Since being a weight lifter,i study both the nutrients and drugs.
There are a few natural substances worth taking,picamilion is gaba attatched to nicacin to cross the brain,l theanine does not need to be in tea,bought alone as a serperate single amino is much more logical.
Having been deep as u can get into natural,knowing every amino,how they work,the precurors they are,etc,ive been through the many fads such as the absurd amount of inosotol 12 grams a day ocd,that cost me a few hundred,then well i got tryptophan,l theanine,b 12 shot,potent sublingual b complex,the famous fish oil era,i came out of it with depression ten fold worse,at 3 grand in the whole.
I swear if you look,there is a link of depression to almost every nutient,amino acid, that exsist,i promise.Its a matter of what u look for,they all appearently can be the cause,and usualy on the page of the product.
Good diet,good sleep,moderate to high cardio,and a gp testing of everything from even toxic metals in ur blood would be to me the better option.Your body is a machine,it gets the nutrients it needs,unless its a specifc defc,i hope u end up better then me.Going back to my maoi,the very day,i felt a thousand times better.
Posted by Lao Tzu on April 14, 2010, at 11:02:55
In reply to Nutrition depression (janejane asked....), posted by mommyron on February 21, 2010, at 13:05:04
I thought your post very insightful, janejane. I have not had success with amino acids either, except glycine in the past. I can't really take it now, but years ago it did help me with anxiety. It's worth a try if you're not on a lot of medication. I also find green tea somewhat helpful. And you're right, exercise, no sugar, a high protein diet (for some people) and an overall good diet with lots of veggies is very helpful. For some reason, I do tend to crave a lot of protein instead of carbs. Don't know why, but may be related to weak adrenals. You've given some very good tips to staying healthy. Thank you.
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