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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sunday on August 30, 2006, at 12:38:50
I'm up to 800 mg/day but I'm not sure it's making a difference yet. I thought there was some improvement when I first started at 400 mg/day but now I'm not sure. I've read that the efficacy rate for major depression is about 1600 mg/day. Expensive but I'd be willing to do it if I thought it might work. I've been on all of the SSRI's, WB, Serzone, Reboxetine, and Effexor. Side effects just are not worth it for the partial response. Anyone used SAMe with good results?
Posted by circusboy on August 30, 2006, at 17:05:27
In reply to Does anyone think SAMe works?, posted by Sunday on August 30, 2006, at 12:38:50
I decided to give SAMe another try last week, since I was spiraling down and about to reach for those not-so-old bottles of Prozac and desipramine in my sock drawer...
So I've been taking 800mg of the Jarrow Formulas brand since last Thursday, and... well, I think it's starting to work. Since Monday my mood's been brighter and I've had noticeably more energy, and the dull ache on the left side of my head above my temple has diminished. (I mention this because I think it's connected to my uh, issues: desipramine, Strattera, and nortriptyline have made this headache vanish).
I've ordered another two boxes, but I'm remaining skeptical. Let's use this thread to check in as our experiments continue.
-cb
PS - I'm also experimenting with other supplements concurrently, but I'm going to try to be both empirical and cautious -- if this stuff is actually working, I don't want to take anything that will interfere!
My current regimen:
500 mg tyrosine + 800mg SAMe first thing
Multi with breakfast
~500 mg fish oil with dinner
2-3 magnesium glycinate pills before bed
(I'm starting to think it's the glycine more than the Mg that's doing the trick...)I was taking inositol (2.25 grams with breakfast and/or lunch) until I realized it was making me spacey! I tried NADH recently, too. I might give it another go after I figure out the SAMe, but I quit because it made me irritable.
> I'm up to 800 mg/day but I'm not sure it's making a difference yet. I thought there was some improvement when I first started at 400 mg/day but now I'm not sure. I've read that the efficacy rate for major depression is about 1600 mg/day. Expensive but I'd be willing to do it if I thought it might work. I've been on all of the SSRI's, WB, Serzone, Reboxetine, and Effexor. Side effects just are not worth it for the partial response. Anyone used SAMe with good results?
Posted by tizza on September 9, 2006, at 20:33:06
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works? » Sunday, posted by circusboy on August 30, 2006, at 17:05:27
i have been taking SAMe for 4 days and it seem to be working pretty well so far, I was in a very bad place and now I'm feeling pretty good. I'm taking 800mg a day
Posted by spriggy on September 10, 2006, at 1:51:28
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works?, posted by tizza on September 9, 2006, at 20:33:06
I on on day 16 of Sam-E. But being the medical weanie that I am, I have started on the lowest dose.
So far, 200 mg has made a very ( very) minimal difference. But I do think this week I have seen a difference.
I'm going to bump up to 400 on monday. I'll stay at that dose for 2 weeks and if I see no improvement, i"ll go up to 600.
Oddly enough, the one thing I definitely notice on Sam-E is that my skin is fantastic!!!
How weird is that?
Posted by circusboy on September 19, 2006, at 17:49:56
In reply to re: Sam-E -- me too, posted by spriggy on September 10, 2006, at 1:51:28
Just an update:
I'm still taking Sam-e (which is some kind of record for me and supplements). I've recently gone up to 1200 mg/day, but I think I'm going to drop back down to 800 mg/day until I figure out what's causing this irregular heartbeat/thumping in my chest (something I've always gotten from time to time, but it's been worse lately).
Anyway, Sam-e has been unquestionably good for me: for my energy and motivation as well as mood. Still, it's not quite...enough. In terms of its antidepressant effects, it feels more like a weak desipramine than an SSRI. Which is to say it (again) makes me feel more motivated and competent, but *not* more clever, creative, spontaneous and friendly.
I'm going to experiment with adding 5-HTP and Rhodolia next (one at a time).
I've read recently that TMG (trimethylglycine) and an extra B6/B12/folic acid supplement is good support for Sam-e... anyone tried that? (All of those are supposed to help the body mop up any extra homocysteine that Sam-e supplementation might produce).
-cb
Posted by Sunday on September 19, 2006, at 19:48:07
In reply to Sam-e update, posted by circusboy on September 19, 2006, at 17:49:56
Interesting cb. I'm still taking 800 mg/day and I think it helps but I hadn't noticed until I read your post that I most feel improvement when I take a good multivitamin (extra B's) and folic acid supplements along with the SAMe. It doesn't happen right away but when it's all taken together (along with zinc which I think has some affect on depression also) I most definitely feel improvement in my symptoms. Guess I know what to do next....back to the full regime.
Posted by tizza on September 21, 2006, at 3:07:10
In reply to Re: Sam-e update, posted by Sunday on September 19, 2006, at 19:48:07
I found a new brand that comes in 2 bottles, the 1st is the SAMe(200mg) and the 2nd is called the SAMe booster which is full of folic acid, b6 and b12 and I also take a MEGA B. This brand works out a bit cheaper but the other brand I took had all of the above inclusive but was more expensive per tab.
Posted by sregan on September 25, 2006, at 16:29:49
In reply to Does anyone think SAMe works?, posted by Sunday on August 30, 2006, at 12:38:50
For those of you responding well to SAMe do you respond well to 5HTP/serotonin generally? I've tried Prozac and Paxil and even 5HTP gives me bad akathesia.
Posted by Sunday on September 25, 2006, at 18:06:01
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works?, posted by sregan on September 25, 2006, at 16:29:49
> For those of you responding well to SAMe do you respond well to 5HTP/serotonin generally? I've tried Prozac and Paxil and even 5HTP gives me bad akathesia.
I don't respond to seratonin at all.
No idea what akathesia is and quite frankly, not interested enough to look it up. So if you want to define the symptom, perhaps we can help.
Posted by circusboy on September 26, 2006, at 16:37:04
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works?, posted by sregan on September 25, 2006, at 16:29:49
I do not get anything that feels like a serotonin boost from SAMe. As I implied in my last post, it feels much more noradrenergic (like desipramine, but without the nastiness).
I'm a few days into a 5-HTP trial right now. The only thing I can say for sure about it is that when I take it at night, I have (paradoxically?) poorer sleep. I think I'm through with it. ..sigh..
I can't say whether I respond to serotonergic drugs "generally": the only SSRIs I've responded to are Prozac (the weirdest in its class), and very high dose Zoloft (but only with lithium). Desipramine was a revelation...but I couldn't sleep on it.
Anyway. I don't think you'll get any SSRI-like effects from taking SAMe. Let me know if you do.
-cb
P.S. - If you do try SAMe, I'd recommend the Doctor's Best or Jarrow Formulas brand (preferably the latter... and no, I'm not getting a kickback ;)).
> For those of you responding well to SAMe do you respond well to 5HTP/serotonin generally? I've tried Prozac and Paxil and even 5HTP gives me bad akathesia.
Posted by sregan on October 2, 2006, at 13:40:14
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works? » sregan, posted by circusboy on September 26, 2006, at 16:37:04
Here is some important info on 5HTP. http://www.lef.org/magazine/hotlines3.html
The article talks about how most 5HTP gets converted to serotonin in the bloodstream OUTSIDE the brain. Then it cannot get past the blood-brain barrier you are left with a ton of 5HT floating around in your blood and what symptoms that can cause.
> I'm a few days into a 5-HTP trial right now. The only thing I can say for sure about it is that when I take it at night, I have (paradoxically?) poorer sleep. I think I'm through with it. ..sigh..
>
> I can't say whether I respond to serotonergic drugs "generally": the only SSRIs I've responded to are Prozac (the weirdest in its class), and very high dose Zoloft (but only with lithium). Desipramine was a revelation...but I couldn't sleep on it.
>
> Anyway. I don't think you'll get any SSRI-like effects from taking SAMe. Let me know if you do.
>
> -cb
>
> P.S. - If you do try SAMe, I'd recommend the Doctor's Best or Jarrow Formulas brand (preferably the latter... and no, I'm not getting a kickback ;)).
>
> > For those of you responding well to SAMe do you respond well to 5HTP/serotonin generally? I've tried Prozac and Paxil and even 5HTP gives me bad akathesia.
>
>
Posted by mila s on October 7, 2006, at 20:11:07
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works? » sregan, posted by circusboy on September 26, 2006, at 16:37:04
> P.S. - If you do try SAMe, I'd recommend the Doctor's Best or Jarrow Formulas brand (preferably the latter... and no, I'm not getting a kickback ;)).
I just thought I'd chime in and say my response to SAM-E has been positive (at 1600mg/day along with vitamin B and TMG) but the Doctor's Best Brand gave me sever stomach aches. The Pharmaton brand worked great for me, however it has been discontinued.
Posted by circusboy on October 10, 2006, at 17:40:32
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works? 5HTP, posted by sregan on October 2, 2006, at 13:40:14
sregan,
Thanks so much for that link. It (along with feeling pretty crappy) convinced me to quit my trial permanently and throw the bottle away.
I'm just so used to regular drug trials, you know? Where you put up with weird side-effects for a while then hope they go away.
Anyway, still going strong with 800 mg/day Jarrow Formulas brand SAMe. I'm playing with other supplements around the margins, but here are the constants:
Before breakfast:
800 mg SAMe
500 mg tyrosineAfter breakfast:
10 mg methylphenidateWith breakfast:
multi
1000 mcg B-12 (methylcobalamin) lozenge, every other dayBefore lunch:
10 mg methylphenidateWith lunch:
2 fish oil capsules (total 450mg EPA / 300mg DHA)With dinner:
another dose of fish oilBefore bed:
Magnesium glycinate (total 200 mg Mg)Still trying to figure all this stuff out...
-cb
> Here is some important info on 5HTP. http://www.lef.org/magazine/hotlines3.html
>
> The article talks about how most 5HTP gets converted to serotonin in the bloodstream OUTSIDE the brain. Then it cannot get past the blood-brain barrier you are left with a ton of 5HT floating around in your blood and what symptoms that can cause.
>
Posted by sregan on October 22, 2006, at 10:23:29
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works? 5HTP, more » sregan, posted by circusboy on October 10, 2006, at 17:40:32
> sregan,
>
> Thanks so much for that link. It (along with feeling pretty crappy) convinced me to quit my trial permanently and throw the bottle away.If you want to raise 5HT levels inside the brain you should give Tryptophan a try. The latest thing coming out of the bodybuilding world (these guys are great willing guinea pigs for any new supplement in the name of muscle gain) is whey protein. The alpha-lactalbumin content has a round-about way of raising serotonin levels.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/nov2002_report_whey_01.html
http://www.qfac.com/articles/brink/whey_protein_will_brink_3.htmlAnd is cheap. I bought 5 pounds for $27 and can attest that it gives me a 5HT high as does the $30 per pound undenatured whey (ultra high purity) I bought previously to try to raise glutathione levels (thinking I might have CFS).
This is the stuff I bought:
5lbs cheaper stuff
http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=62undenatured expensive stuff:
https://www.immunesupport.com/shop/product.cfm/product__code/PH143Shawn
Posted by circusboy on October 24, 2006, at 9:41:34
In reply to Re: Does anyone think SAMe works? 5HTP, more » circusboy, posted by sregan on October 22, 2006, at 10:23:29
Shawn,
Thanks for the info on whey -- I'll keep in in mind.
I'm having some success with inositol (even at a low dose of ~2.5g). Idea behind that, of course, is to increase 5HT signaling/sensitivity by amplifying second messenger components behind the receptors. Jury's still out, of course. The only supps I'm absolutely positive about are SAMe, tyrosine (with some days off!) and high-EPA fish oil.
I suppose due to exaggerated rumors of its OTC demise, I never checked out tryptophan! Turns out Source Naturals and Doctor's Best still makes it.
Might try that even before whey, unless it becomes a cost issue (SAM-e alone takes a big chunk out of my supp budget)... Unless you can point to reasons not to?
-cb
Posted by sregan on October 24, 2006, at 9:49:50
In reply to Re: supplements to boost serotonin » sregan, posted by circusboy on October 24, 2006, at 9:41:34
> I'm having some success with inositol (even at a low dose of ~2.5g). Idea behind that, of course, is to increase 5HT signaling/sensitivity by amplifying second messenger components behind the receptors. Jury's still out, of course. The only supps I'm absolutely positive about are SAMe, tyrosine (with some days off!) and high-EPA fish oil.
I just ordered some SAMe to give it a try. I'm pretty sensitive to most drugs/supplements that work with serotonin. Even EPA fish oil affects me similar to 5HTP and Whey. I've tried tyrosine and not got the effect that I did with DL-Phenlyalinine.
> I suppose due to exaggerated rumors of its OTC demise, I never checked out tryptophan! Turns out Source Naturals and Doctor's Best still makes it.
> Might try that even before whey, unless it becomes a cost issue (SAM-e alone takes a big chunk out of my supp budget)... Unless you can point to reasons not to?No reason, amino supplementation should be the safest route to modifying your brain chemistry. Drugs produce dependence and side effects. Please let me/us know how it works for you.
Shawn
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