![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 38 to 62 of 73. Go back in thread:
Posted by Zillah on October 13, 2005, at 11:33:46
In reply to Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by barbaracat on September 25, 2005, at 17:14:39
Please excuse me for barging in... I stumbled across this thread while researching the effects of phenylalanine and tyrosine supplementation on depression.
Your descriptions of your mental/emotional states and responses to medications resonate thoroughly with my own experiences: anhedonia, fatigue, lack of motivation, (very) poor response to SSRIs, problems with attention, disordered sleep, social anxiety.
I've tried Prozac, amitriptyline, Serzone (awful!), Wellbutrin, 5HTP, St. John's Wort, and a myriad of vitamin/mineral supplements. The only thing that has helped me is Wellbutrin.
I've been on Wellbutrin for the past 4 years, but it just isn't working anymore. I feel keyed up and anxious all the time but still apathetic, unfocused, and exhausted. I only recently started researching other substances that work on the dopamine pathway... I'd never heard of macuna.
Are there other medications or supplements you would recommend? I'm currently thinking of talking to my doctor about methylphenidate, selegiline, and/or pramipexole. Any experience with these? What about desipramine or tianeptine?
Thank you,
Zillah
Posted by barbaracat on October 13, 2005, at 18:19:58
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by Zillah on October 13, 2005, at 11:33:46
Welcome, Zillah. Sorry you're having a poop out to Wellbutrin. I could not tolerate it, although my husband is thriving on it. Our depressions are very different, his lethargic, mine agitated.
I would give macuna a try. All other meds seem to eventually diminish in effect and any other med, such as Selegin or deprenyl, amphetamines, etc. that work on dopamine pathways seem to eventually deplete stores. I've found macuna to be very pleasant with no speediness and gives me an alert yet calm feeling. You can get it at www.herbal-powers.com. Good luck! BarbaraCat
> Please excuse me for barging in... I stumbled across this thread while researching the effects of phenylalanine and tyrosine supplementation on depression.
>
> Your descriptions of your mental/emotional states and responses to medications resonate thoroughly with my own experiences: anhedonia, fatigue, lack of motivation, (very) poor response to SSRIs, problems with attention, disordered sleep, social anxiety.
>
> I've tried Prozac, amitriptyline, Serzone (awful!), Wellbutrin, 5HTP, St. John's Wort, and a myriad of vitamin/mineral supplements. The only thing that has helped me is Wellbutrin.
>
> I've been on Wellbutrin for the past 4 years, but it just isn't working anymore. I feel keyed up and anxious all the time but still apathetic, unfocused, and exhausted. I only recently started researching other substances that work on the dopamine pathway... I'd never heard of macuna.
>
> Are there other medications or supplements you would recommend? I'm currently thinking of talking to my doctor about methylphenidate, selegiline, and/or pramipexole. Any experience with these? What about desipramine or tianeptine?
>
> Thank you,
> Zillah
>
>
Posted by Declan on October 13, 2005, at 19:34:44
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » Zillah, posted by barbaracat on October 13, 2005, at 18:19:58
Why not try low dose Parnate? No side effects to speak of. Insomnia's Ok if you take it on awakening. I take 10mg. Kinda like deprenyl with added warmth, but mild.
Declan
Posted by Zillah on October 13, 2005, at 21:18:00
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » Zillah, posted by barbaracat on October 13, 2005, at 18:19:58
Thank you for the welcome and for the sympathy, Barbara. Ordinarily my experience of depression is of the lethargic variety, but lately (even though I'm tired all the time) I've been anxious and absolutely unable to concentrate... I can't seem to accomplish *anything*. :(
The macuna sounds good... I will have to read up on it.
Thanks again,
Zillah
> Welcome, Zillah. Sorry you're having a poop out to Wellbutrin. I could not tolerate it, although my husband is thriving on it. Our depressions are very different, his lethargic, mine agitated.
Posted by Zillah on October 13, 2005, at 21:29:09
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by Declan on October 13, 2005, at 19:34:44
Declan,
Thanks for the suggestion... I will take it under consideration.
I was interested in specifically dopaminergic meds/supplements in the hopes that they might help both the depression and the attention/motivation deficits I'm battling.
Even though anxiety is a problem for me, I am reluctant to take anything serotonergic. I already have problems with low sex drive, and anything that might cause dysfunction in that arena is out.
Why do you recommend Parnate over Marplan or Nardil?
Zillah
> Why not try low dose Parnate? No side effects to speak of. Insomnia's Ok if you take it on awakening. I take 10mg. Kinda like deprenyl with added warmth, but mild.
> Declan
Posted by Jakeman on October 13, 2005, at 21:31:54
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » Zillah, posted by barbaracat on October 13, 2005, at 18:19:58
BarbaraCat,
I was wondering if you could say more about your experience with mucuna. Has it had any effect on your sleep, positive or negative? Do you take it on daily basis?
~warm regards, Jake
Posted by barbaracat on October 14, 2005, at 11:03:51
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » barbaracat, posted by Jakeman on October 13, 2005, at 21:31:54
Hi Jake,
I've been taking macuna a little over 2 weeks. I'd heard of it but it's always been touted as a 'sex enhancer' and I'm always suspect with all the flurry of ads I get on the subject. With the suggestion of Rick (Declan) I tried it and have been very nicely surprised.The first day was most noticeable but I'm still getting a good response on 2 pills a day, mainly when I feel I could use an extra lift. The feeling is smooth, calm, a warm glow feeling and yet I feel alert and with that unique head and spine tingle feeling I associate with a stimulant.
I have had no problem whatsoever falling asleep and I'm very prone to insomnia. Right now especially, since I've gone off Ambien and am trying to go au natural sleepwise. If anything, it calms my scattered thoughts down to where I can sleep.
It feels unlike anything else I've tried. Most meds that tinker with the more energizing pathways leave me feeling jagged and depleted afterwards, like I've emptied the stores. Macuna has a steady pleasant energized effect that also feels healthy, like it's repleneshing needed nutrients in the brain. The next day I feel fine.
The literature says to rotate it 2 months on and off. I'm trying for 1 week on and off because I'm not at a place right now where my ADD is acting up.
It will be interesting to get my husband's reaction from it. This morning I gave him 1 pill (from www.herbal-powers.com). He's been going through a great deal of stress at work and is feeling burnt out, exhausted, having trouble sleeping, can't focus. It would normally be a no-brainer, but I've been hesitating because he's already on 300mg Wellbutrin XR and I don't want to overload him in the dopamine dept. I decided it was worth a try because macuna just feels different, gentle yet powerful. I'll report back on his experiences since I'm sure there are many of us out there who have the same question about combining a dopamine enhancer with a dopamine AD. - BarbaraCat
>
> I was wondering if you could say more about your experience with mucuna. Has it had any effect on your sleep, positive or negative? Do you take it on daily basis?
>
> ~warm regards, Jake
>
Posted by Declan on October 14, 2005, at 19:21:32
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences?, posted by Zillah on October 13, 2005, at 11:33:46
Hi there
I thought of Parnate because you wanted something activating and dopaminergic. It doesn't affect sex adversely, rather the opposite. Not good for sleep, but I take my tablet the very first thing and sometimes sleep allright, if I get the balance of everything else right, don't drink too much and so on. It just has a nice feel. And low dose the side effects and problematic aspects are minimal.
Declan
Posted by gromit on October 14, 2005, at 22:48:25
In reply to Re: More from the Macuna front » gromit, posted by barbaracat on October 11, 2005, at 13:40:05
> **Alexathymia, now there's a new one on me. Is it that you really don't know, as in inattentive to the point of not noticing how you're feeling, or is it that you know how you feel but can't express it?
It's a bit of both, I don't pay much attention to how I'm feeling usually, and it's usually irrelevant anyway. I also have a difficult time sometimes recognising what my emotions are, sometimes I know but can't relay that verbally. It's more of a problem for others, like my wife.
> **The thing is, most of us are going around desperately pretending we're not as dorky as we feel. If we'd just admit it and get and give support this would be different world. Instead we torment those who have the same shadow characteristics we deny in ourselves.That gets easier as you get older and just give less of a rip what others think about you. I still think the kid we were is a big part or how things turn out as an adult.
> You're on the Alternative board so you must have also sought out alternative doctors and such to look into physical reasons. I'm aghast at how the majority of pdocs never consider physcial dysfunctions - hormonal imbalances, gut dysbiosis, viruses, allergies. They rarely if ever look below the neck.No I haven't tried any alternative doctors, several endo's who ran every test in the book. Couldn't find anything really wrong, high cholestorol, low testosterone. But these two things could be the result of low dopamine couldn't they? They were more concerned with cortisol levels which were low range normal every time.
> I also have fibromyalgia which could be separate or part of the whole package, but it put me hot on the trail to find out what was going on with me. I'm finally starting to get better and alot of it was how I was asimilating hormones, including thyroid, even though my TSH values cames back OK. It's been piece by piece detective work but I definitely had physical things going on that weren't obvious. As I clear them up my mood disorders are resolving also.I've wondered about thyroid, I have a benign growth on mine but the tests come back fine. I've asked to be pushed a little hyper but they wouldn't do it. Fibromyalgia sounds rough, it's bad enough to have chronic pain from something that you can see on an MRI.
> Point is, your mood issues could be symptoms of an underlying health issue that we both know won't get addressed by the typical physician or pdoc. I've had the best results from naturopaths, but they're not perfect either.
I've quit seeing the pdocs for years at a time because they just made me feel worse. I've had better luck with just seeing a GP but it's not great either. Not sure if insurance would cover a naturopath or I could afford to buy the stuff they might recommend.
> **Well, I took it for 3 years straight and it worked fine. Only took about 1 week of rebound insomnia to get off it. I still take it when I can't get to sleep. The complaints I've heard about Sonata is that it's like Ambien but wears of in 3-4 hours so you're likely to wake up too early. And forget Lunesta unless you like the taste of old pennies in your mouth all day long.
Sonata might be worth a try if ambien starts to poop out, I don't need help staying asleep, just falling asleep. I've had enough with meds that give a bad taste all the time so lunesta is out.
> > Amen, brother. Probably a good thing there isn't a Politics board on this site or I'd be spending too much time over there ranting and raving. Actually, I've pretty much just given it over regarding politics. It's enough to work on myself. I can't take on a corrupt and inept government. Cheerio! - Barbara
Well, I probably shouldn't say this but there is a Politics board on this site :) Don't worry, it's pretty quiet most of the time.
Rick
Posted by Zillah on October 15, 2005, at 14:08:05
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » Zillah, posted by Declan on October 14, 2005, at 19:21:32
Thanks for the reply... Very interesting. I've read up a bit more on the MAOIs since you suggested this, and I am definitely intrigued. I will ask my doctor about it when I go in next month.
Do you have to follow any dietary restrictions?
Zillah
>
> I thought of Parnate because you wanted something activating and dopaminergic.
Posted by Jakeman on October 16, 2005, at 13:58:39
In reply to Macuna experiences » Jakeman, posted by barbaracat on October 14, 2005, at 11:03:51
> Hi Jake,
> I've been taking macuna a little over 2 weeks. I'd heard of it but it's always been touted as a 'sex enhancer' and I'm always suspect with all the flurry of ads I get on the subject. With the suggestion of Rick (Declan) I tried it and have been very nicely surprised.
>
> The first day was most noticeable but I'm still getting a good response on 2 pills a day, mainly when I feel I could use an extra lift. The feeling is smooth, calm, a warm glow feeling and yet I feel alert and with that unique head and spine tingle feeling I associate with a stimulant.
>
> I have had no problem whatsoever falling asleep and I'm very prone to insomnia. Right now especially, since I've gone off Ambien and am trying to go au natural sleepwise. If anything, it calms my scattered thoughts down to where I can sleep.
>
> It feels unlike anything else I've tried. Most meds that tinker with the more energizing pathways leave me feeling jagged and depleted afterwards, like I've emptied the stores. Macuna has a steady pleasant energized effect that also feels healthy, like it's repleneshing needed nutrients in the brain. The next day I feel fine.
>
> The literature says to rotate it 2 months on and off. I'm trying for 1 week on and off because I'm not at a place right now where my ADD is acting up.
>
> It will be interesting to get my husband's reaction from it. This morning I gave him 1 pill (from www.herbal-powers.com). He's been going through a great deal of stress at work and is feeling burnt out, exhausted, having trouble sleeping, can't focus. It would normally be a no-brainer, but I've been hesitating because he's already on 300mg Wellbutrin XR and I don't want to overload him in the dopamine dept. I decided it was worth a try because macuna just feels different, gentle yet powerful. I'll report back on his experiences since I'm sure there are many of us out there who have the same question about combining a dopamine enhancer with a dopamine AD. - BarbaraCat
> >
>
>
> > I was wondering if you could say more about your experience with mucuna. Has it had any effect on your sleep, positive or negative? Do you take it on daily basis?
> >
> > ~warm regards, Jake
> >Hi BarbaraCat,
Thanks for your report about mucuna. I'm glad you've gotten a positive response, hopefully it will continue and will work for your husband as well. My situation sounds similar to his, dealing with job burnout, stress and insomia. The last antidepressant I took was Wellbutrin about six months ago. Since then I've been getting by with St.Johns Wort, TMG, and some other basics such as fish oil. Lately though I've been struggling more with depression and lack of focus and motivation. Part of the problem is that I often just forget to stay on my regimen.
I hope to try Mucuna soon and I can compare notes with you and others. Apparently some people are taking it to increase human growth hormone, that would be a desireable benefit if true since my levels of HGH are low. Like you though I'm always suspicious of supplements that are being touted to help a whole gamit of problems from sex to aging.
warm regards ~Jake
Posted by Declan on October 24, 2005, at 14:46:15
In reply to Re: Tyrosine vs. Phenylalanine experiences? » Declan, posted by Zillah on October 15, 2005, at 14:08:05
The dietary restrictions aren't a problem for me because my diet is vegetables, fruit, protein (unaged) and whisky. And that's it. Sometimes I like Parnate, sometimes I don't. ATM I'm feeling that I prefer 400mg SAMe and 1mg deprenyl. It's not such a bad combination and doesn't do anything awful to me.
Declan
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2005, at 19:48:11
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences » barbaracat, posted by Jakeman on October 16, 2005, at 13:58:39
Hi Jake,
You mention HGH and macuna. I read that in the data and it intrigued me because I'm using HGH by injection. My growth hormone tested really low too and it's one of the things sometimes seen in fibromyalgia. I think it's helped me alot because since I started taking it my hormones became more consistent instead of ping-ponging around. That tells me that my alot of my mood and health issues probably have something to do with a bum HPA-axis.What I'm not sure about is if it's a secretogogue or works another way. There's no sense using a secretogogue for HGH, like some of the aminos, if there's little to work with. Its like giving a woman fertility drugs when she's post-menopausal. Nothing can convince eggs that aren't there to do much of anything.
I relate to not always taking supplements. I have boxes and cabinets and countertops full of bottles containing next best thing that's going to solve all my problems. They sit there and become overwhelming to deal with so they just sit there more. One more thing to maintain. But But I never miss the HGH and my thyroid and other hormones because I definitely notice when I slack off.
I haven't been taking the macuna lately. I'm taking some time off like the literature suggests. It'll be interesting to see how things feels when I resume.
Sorry you're battling the blues. I think many of us deal with a slump around this time of year. I don't have SAD or anything and love rainy days, but wintertime has meant hard times since the beginning of time and we must be hardwired to dread it.
I got an Apollo sunlamp a few months ago and hope I remember to use it. It helps with if you don't have SAD since it supposedly makes serotonin. So does high doses of Vitamin D taken with B6. I take a professional high dose Vit D drops. Maybe that's one of the reasons we go into a slump in the dark days - not enough Vitamin D = low serotonin.
I also have some TMG sitting on my countertop but never took it long enough to decide if it was for me or not. I took Sam-e for a year or so and just couldn't tell. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Ciao! Barbara
Posted by Jakeman on October 26, 2005, at 20:21:54
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences » Jakeman, posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2005, at 19:48:11
Hi Barbara,
I got some macuna 2 days ago and have just started it. So far it have seems to give me a lift in energy-drive and clarity of thought, I guess like what one would expect from increased dopamine. I almost feels like my experiences from DHEA from several years ago. But DHEA aggravated my insomnia and so far that has not happened with mucuna.
I am thinking of combining mucuna with Mentat in a few days. By itself, Mentat gave me an antidepressant effect somewhat like my first experience with SSRI's before they quit working. Of course these herbal formulations may poop-out too but there's always hope. Maybe the key is to switch back and forth.
That's a good suggestion about getting sunlight and vit D. I find it makes a difference if I just take 15 minutes at lunch time outside with my face in full sun. That's usually not hard to do here in south TX, it just requires a little bit of self discipline.
For me the jury is out on TMG. I chose it over SAMe due to lower cost. I'm not sure if it's helped me or not, but the research shows it can help with depression and stress on the liver and heart. For now I taking a Solgar vitamin called homocysteine modulators which has TMG, B, and folic acid. Since my family has a history of heart disease and depression I figure it can't hurt.
I'm hoping my HGH levels will improve whenever I start getting better sleep (another long story) If not, I will look into injections. With me there are psychological issues that play in
which I'm also working on.I really appreciate your thoughts and hope you will continue posting about your experiences.
warm regards ~Jake
> Hi Jake,
> You mention HGH and macuna. I read that in the data and it intrigued me because I'm using HGH by injection. My growth hormone tested really low too and it's one of the things sometimes seen in fibromyalgia. I think it's helped me alot because since I started taking it my hormones became more consistent instead of ping-ponging around. That tells me that my alot of my mood and health issues probably have something to do with a bum HPA-axis.
>
> What I'm not sure about is if it's a secretogogue or works another way. There's no sense using a secretogogue for HGH, like some of the aminos, if there's little to work with. Its like giving a woman fertility drugs when she's post-menopausal. Nothing can convince eggs that aren't there to do much of anything.
>
> I relate to not always taking supplements. I have boxes and cabinets and countertops full of bottles containing next best thing that's going to solve all my problems. They sit there and become overwhelming to deal with so they just sit there more. One more thing to maintain. But But I never miss the HGH and my thyroid and other hormones because I definitely notice when I slack off.
>
> I haven't been taking the macuna lately. I'm taking some time off like the literature suggests. It'll be interesting to see how things feels when I resume.
>
> Sorry you're battling the blues. I think many of us deal with a slump around this time of year. I don't have SAD or anything and love rainy days, but wintertime has meant hard times since the beginning of time and we must be hardwired to dread it.
>
> I got an Apollo sunlamp a few months ago and hope I remember to use it. It helps with if you don't have SAD since it supposedly makes serotonin. So does high doses of Vitamin D taken with B6. I take a professional high dose Vit D drops. Maybe that's one of the reasons we go into a slump in the dark days - not enough Vitamin D = low serotonin.
>
> I also have some TMG sitting on my countertop but never took it long enough to decide if it was for me or not. I took Sam-e for a year or so and just couldn't tell. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Ciao! Barbara
>
Posted by brainfade on October 29, 2005, at 15:15:03
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences » Jakeman, posted by BarbaraCat on October 25, 2005, at 19:48:11
On subject of dopamine. Consider NADH supplemented with Green Tea extract for ECGC, COMT inhibition. Does wonders for me.
NADH enhances Dopamime production while the COMT inhibition keeps Dopamine around just a little longer.
BrainF
> Hi Jake,
> You mention HGH and macuna. I read that in the data and it intrigued me because I'm using HGH by injection. My growth hormone tested really low too and it's one of the things sometimes seen in fibromyalgia. I think it's helped me alot because since I started taking it my hormones became more consistent instead of ping-ponging around. That tells me that my alot of my mood and health issues probably have something to do with a bum HPA-axis.
>
> What I'm not sure about is if it's a secretogogue or works another way. There's no sense using a secretogogue for HGH, like some of the aminos, if there's little to work with. Its like giving a woman fertility drugs when she's post-menopausal. Nothing can convince eggs that aren't there to do much of anything.
>
> I relate to not always taking supplements. I have boxes and cabinets and countertops full of bottles containing next best thing that's going to solve all my problems. They sit there and become overwhelming to deal with so they just sit there more. One more thing to maintain. But But I never miss the HGH and my thyroid and other hormones because I definitely notice when I slack off.
>
> I haven't been taking the macuna lately. I'm taking some time off like the literature suggests. It'll be interesting to see how things feels when I resume.
>
> Sorry you're battling the blues. I think many of us deal with a slump around this time of year. I don't have SAD or anything and love rainy days, but wintertime has meant hard times since the beginning of time and we must be hardwired to dread it.
>
> I got an Apollo sunlamp a few months ago and hope I remember to use it. It helps with if you don't have SAD since it supposedly makes serotonin. So does high doses of Vitamin D taken with B6. I take a professional high dose Vit D drops. Maybe that's one of the reasons we go into a slump in the dark days - not enough Vitamin D = low serotonin.
>
> I also have some TMG sitting on my countertop but never took it long enough to decide if it was for me or not. I took Sam-e for a year or so and just couldn't tell. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Ciao! Barbara
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 30, 2005, at 1:06:01
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences, posted by brainfade on October 29, 2005, at 15:15:03
I used to do NADH when I was in the throes of fibromyalgia and it gave me a nice lift. I didn't realize it was dopamine. The other supplement that helps with energy is Co-enzyme Q at about 150mg. I don't think it affects dopamine, rather it works on ATP and mitochondrial efficiency.
What kind of green tea extract? You wouldn't mean L-theanine? How much NADH do you take?
> On subject of dopamine. Consider NADH supplemented with Green Tea extract for ECGC, COMT inhibition. Does wonders for me.
>
> NADH enhances Dopamime production while the COMT inhibition keeps Dopamine around just a little longer.
>
> BrainF
>
> > Hi Jake,
>
> > You mention HGH and macuna. I read that in the data and it intrigued me because I'm using HGH by injection. My growth hormone tested really low too and it's one of the things sometimes seen in fibromyalgia. I think it's helped me alot because since I started taking it my hormones became more consistent instead of ping-ponging around. That tells me that my alot of my mood and health issues probably have something to do with a bum HPA-axis.
> >
> > What I'm not sure about is if it's a secretogogue or works another way. There's no sense using a secretogogue for HGH, like some of the aminos, if there's little to work with. Its like giving a woman fertility drugs when she's post-menopausal. Nothing can convince eggs that aren't there to do much of anything.
> >
> > I relate to not always taking supplements. I have boxes and cabinets and countertops full of bottles containing next best thing that's going to solve all my problems. They sit there and become overwhelming to deal with so they just sit there more. One more thing to maintain. But But I never miss the HGH and my thyroid and other hormones because I definitely notice when I slack off.
> >
> > I haven't been taking the macuna lately. I'm taking some time off like the literature suggests. It'll be interesting to see how things feels when I resume.
> >
> > Sorry you're battling the blues. I think many of us deal with a slump around this time of year. I don't have SAD or anything and love rainy days, but wintertime has meant hard times since the beginning of time and we must be hardwired to dread it.
> >
> > I got an Apollo sunlamp a few months ago and hope I remember to use it. It helps with if you don't have SAD since it supposedly makes serotonin. So does high doses of Vitamin D taken with B6. I take a professional high dose Vit D drops. Maybe that's one of the reasons we go into a slump in the dark days - not enough Vitamin D = low serotonin.
> >
> > I also have some TMG sitting on my countertop but never took it long enough to decide if it was for me or not. I took Sam-e for a year or so and just couldn't tell. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Ciao! Barbara
> >
>
>
Posted by brainfade on November 6, 2005, at 5:02:02
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences » brainfade, posted by BarbaraCat on October 30, 2005, at 1:06:01
I use BioChem Green Tea Extract. Three tablets equal 270 mg of ECGC. I take this along with Co-E1 NADA at 5 to 10 mg per day first thing in the AM. I am taking mucuna at 60mg occasionally.
Its goes like this: tyrosine--to L-dopa enhanced by NADH----to dopamine to norepinaphrine to epinephrine. COMT is involved with the degradation of all of the transmitters, hence the Green Tea. With mucuna I bi-pass the Tyrosine to L-dopa phase... Naturally this is all layman stuff..yet there is ample evidence that dopamine and serotonin etc.. by nature decreases and COMT increases as we age resulting in a slow bitching decrease in the way one gets out of bed in the morning....I'm just trying to hedge old age......lol
There is definitely something with this combination so far as clarity, energy and appetite suppression....
Good on you.
Brainfade.
> I used to do NADH when I was in the throes of fibromyalgia and it gave me a nice lift. I didn't realize it was dopamine. The other supplement that helps with energy is Co-enzyme Q at about 150mg. I don't think it affects dopamine, rather it works on ATP and mitochondrial efficiency.
>
> What kind of green tea extract? You wouldn't mean L-theanine? How much NADH do you take?
>
> > On subject of dopamine. Consider NADH supplemented with Green Tea extract for ECGC, COMT inhibition. Does wonders for me.
> >
> > NADH enhances Dopamime production while the COMT inhibition keeps Dopamine around just a little longer.
> >
> > BrainF
> >
> > > Hi Jake,
> >
> > > You mention HGH and macuna. I read that in the data and it intrigued me because I'm using HGH by injection. My growth hormone tested really low too and it's one of the things sometimes seen in fibromyalgia. I think it's helped me alot because since I started taking it my hormones became more consistent instead of ping-ponging around. That tells me that my alot of my mood and health issues probably have something to do with a bum HPA-axis.
> > >
> > > What I'm not sure about is if it's a secretogogue or works another way. There's no sense using a secretogogue for HGH, like some of the aminos, if there's little to work with. Its like giving a woman fertility drugs when she's post-menopausal. Nothing can convince eggs that aren't there to do much of anything.
> > >
> > > I relate to not always taking supplements. I have boxes and cabinets and countertops full of bottles containing next best thing that's going to solve all my problems. They sit there and become overwhelming to deal with so they just sit there more. One more thing to maintain. But But I never miss the HGH and my thyroid and other hormones because I definitely notice when I slack off.
> > >
> > > I haven't been taking the macuna lately. I'm taking some time off like the literature suggests. It'll be interesting to see how things feels when I resume.
> > >
> > > Sorry you're battling the blues. I think many of us deal with a slump around this time of year. I don't have SAD or anything and love rainy days, but wintertime has meant hard times since the beginning of time and we must be hardwired to dread it.
> > >
> > > I got an Apollo sunlamp a few months ago and hope I remember to use it. It helps with if you don't have SAD since it supposedly makes serotonin. So does high doses of Vitamin D taken with B6. I take a professional high dose Vit D drops. Maybe that's one of the reasons we go into a slump in the dark days - not enough Vitamin D = low serotonin.
> > >
> > > I also have some TMG sitting on my countertop but never took it long enough to decide if it was for me or not. I took Sam-e for a year or so and just couldn't tell. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Ciao! Barbara
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 8, 2005, at 12:52:43
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences-reply, posted by brainfade on November 6, 2005, at 5:02:02
Verrry interesting. Something that could prevent the degradation of of neurotransmitters is intriguing. You've put me on a new quest. Do you have a good source for these products? I usually use IHerb for most things but haven't checked if they carry the Bio-Chem brands.
Another question, how does this interract with an anxiety condition? Or bipolar for that matter? I enjoy the brightening effect from mild stimulants but have to be careful that they don't aggravate the anxiety.
- Barbara
use BioChem Green Tea Extract. Three tablets equal 270 mg of ECGC. I take this along with Co-E1 NADA at 5 to 10 mg per day first thing in the AM. I am taking mucuna at 60mg occasionally.
>
> Its goes like this: tyrosine--to L-dopa enhanced by NADH----to dopamine to norepinaphrine to epinephrine. COMT is involved with the degradation of all of the transmitters, hence the Green Tea. With mucuna I bi-pass the Tyrosine to L-dopa phase... Naturally this is all layman stuff..yet there is ample evidence that dopamine and serotonin etc.. by nature decreases and COMT increases as we age resulting in a slow bitching decrease in the way one gets out of bed in the morning....I'm just trying to hedge old age......lol
>
> There is definitely something with this combination so far as clarity, energy and appetite suppression....
>
> Good on you.
>
> Brainfade.
>
> > I used to do NADH when I was in the throes of fibromyalgia and it gave me a nice lift. I didn't realize it was dopamine. The other supplement that helps with energy is Co-enzyme Q at about 150mg. I don't think it affects dopamine, rather it works on ATP and mitochondrial efficiency.
> >
> > What kind of green tea extract? You wouldn't mean L-theanine? How much NADH do you take?
> >
> > > On subject of dopamine. Consider NADH supplemented with Green Tea extract for ECGC, COMT inhibition. Does wonders for me.
> > >
> > > NADH enhances Dopamime production while the COMT inhibition keeps Dopamine around just a little longer.
> > >
> > > BrainF
> > >
> > > > Hi Jake,
> > >
> > > > You mention HGH and macuna. I read that in the data and it intrigued me because I'm using HGH by injection. My growth hormone tested really low too and it's one of the things sometimes seen in fibromyalgia. I think it's helped me alot because since I started taking it my hormones became more consistent instead of ping-ponging around. That tells me that my alot of my mood and health issues probably have something to do with a bum HPA-axis.
> > > >
> > > > What I'm not sure about is if it's a secretogogue or works another way. There's no sense using a secretogogue for HGH, like some of the aminos, if there's little to work with. Its like giving a woman fertility drugs when she's post-menopausal. Nothing can convince eggs that aren't there to do much of anything.
> > > >
> > > > I relate to not always taking supplements. I have boxes and cabinets and countertops full of bottles containing next best thing that's going to solve all my problems. They sit there and become overwhelming to deal with so they just sit there more. One more thing to maintain. But But I never miss the HGH and my thyroid and other hormones because I definitely notice when I slack off.
> > > >
> > > > I haven't been taking the macuna lately. I'm taking some time off like the literature suggests. It'll be interesting to see how things feels when I resume.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry you're battling the blues. I think many of us deal with a slump around this time of year. I don't have SAD or anything and love rainy days, but wintertime has meant hard times since the beginning of time and we must be hardwired to dread it.
> > > >
> > > > I got an Apollo sunlamp a few months ago and hope I remember to use it. It helps with if you don't have SAD since it supposedly makes serotonin. So does high doses of Vitamin D taken with B6. I take a professional high dose Vit D drops. Maybe that's one of the reasons we go into a slump in the dark days - not enough Vitamin D = low serotonin.
> > > >
> > > > I also have some TMG sitting on my countertop but never took it long enough to decide if it was for me or not. I took Sam-e for a year or so and just couldn't tell. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it. Ciao! Barbara
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by brainfade on November 11, 2005, at 15:58:47
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences-reply » brainfade, posted by BarbaraCat on November 8, 2005, at 12:52:43
Bcat,
Sorry for the delay. I use the Bio-chem Green tea extract and I believe you can purchase it at Iherb. It provides 90mg of ECGC per tablet. White label with green lettering.
I take one to three tablet every morning with 5 to 10 mg of NADH. You have to judge which combination works for you. The more ECGC the higher the effect of COMT inhibition hence the more jittery...you may feel. I have been taking 3 tablets totaling 270 ECGC/10mg of NADH first thing in the morning for the last couple of days and it appears to be a bit heavy. Yet I still sleep real well........which is not like me... any kind of stimulate..coffee at 4 pm and I am half awake all night.
It can have an accumulative effect from day to day use...the extract. I have been experimenting with this for about a week now and have reduced the ECGC to one tablet (90mg ECGC) for today along with the NADH 10mg. I have felt wonderful all day with no appetite but this is a day to day thing....again I am fine tuning...
MAO inhibition or COMT inhibition is most likely the best way to enhance neurotransmitters and L-dopa. This appears to be a natural way.
If you would care to try I would advise dropping 1 tablet of this extract and 5 mg of NADH on an empty stomach first thing in the morning and wait awhile... and go from there.....
PS: I assume the COMT inhibition will wane after a while and require more extract so I would stagger the dose, least this is my plan. The body has a way of compensating for the comt inhibition my guess is by picking up the MAO.
Posted by zefdie on November 13, 2005, at 14:08:20
In reply to Re: Macuna hatatta » ravenstorm, posted by gromit on October 10, 2005, at 15:16:52
I have a question based on one of Larry Hoover's prior responses about 5-HTP and the danger of flooding one's stomach with serotonin before it can get to the brain. He said that for Parkinsons l-dopa is taken with a decarboxylase inhibitor to prevent the same thing happening with dopamine. I'm wondering if this might allow daily, long-term use of mucuna pruriens rather than the rotating schedule people seem to be using; also, I imagine it would enhance the effect of the mucuna.
Anyone have any ideas? Here is some info about inhibitors, quoted from a Parkinson's site:
"L-Dopa is often combined with dopa-decarboxylase inhibitors such as carbidopa or benserazide, with these formulations known as 'Co-Careldopa' and 'Co-Beneldopa' respectively."
This apparently reduces peripheral side effects from dopamine: "Dopa-decarboxylase is stored in all adrenergic nerve endings)."
It also says that dopa-decarboxylase inhibitors can't cross the blood-brain barrier and therefore you can take lower doses of l-dopa with the same effect on the brain, experiencing fewer side effects. There is a "quicker onset of action" and a "more stable clinical response."
The information comes from here:
http://www.chemsoc.org/exemplarchem/entries/2003/nottingham_russell/2.html
> > This was posted at the end of the information on the supplement barbcat is taking:
> >
> > Caution: Not intended for use by persons under the age of 18. Mucuna Pruriens is not intended for long-term use. Do not take more than 2 months continiously. The long term side effects of Mucuna has not been studied. You may take the product on a 2 months on, 2 months off basis. If you are pregnant, nursing a baby, or have a serious medical condition, seek the advice of a health professional before using this product.
> >
> > Risk and adverse effects: Researchers have found that taking over 1g of L Dopa a day can cause undesirable side effects such as nausea and vomiting, uncontrollable motions , loss of blood pressure, mental disturbance, and increased cardiac risk. It is highly suggested that you follow the recomended dosage by not exceeding 2 capsules a day, and not take it longer than a 2 months period . If you are currently on medication, please consult your physician before taking any supplement.
>
> It seems like you're supposed to cycle quite a few supplements. Not many "alternative" treatments have been really studied long term it seems.
>
> > Right now, I can't take medications because of what remeron did to my stomach, so anything that could cause vomitting or nausea I probably can't take.
>
> I haven't noticed any stomach upset myself. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think those side effects are caused specifically by mucuna, it's just how too much dopamine effects people. It says over 1 gram of l-dopa per day, even with the high octane brand the if you take the max 500 mg you actually get less than 250 mg of l-dopa. So if you take 4 times the recommended dose bad things might happen but that would be true of many other things too.
>
> Man, that almost sounded like a sales pitch. Is your doctor open minded about stuff like this? I've only had one pdoc who didn't either shrug me off or get irritated if I mentioned any kind of natural thing.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 13, 2005, at 15:27:24
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences-reply, posted by brainfade on November 11, 2005, at 15:58:47
Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and order some green tea extract from IHerb. I'll also do a search on COMT since this is a new topic for me, but if you have any good references handy, pass them on. - Barbara
> Sorry for the delay. I use the Bio-chem Green tea extract and I believe you can purchase it at Iherb. It provides 90mg of ECGC per tablet. White label with green lettering.
>
> I take one to three tablet every morning with 5 to 10 mg of NADH. You have to judge which combination works for you. The more ECGC the higher the effect of COMT inhibition hence the more jittery...you may feel. I have been taking 3 tablets totaling 270 ECGC/10mg of NADH first thing in the morning for the last couple of days and it appears to be a bit heavy. Yet I still sleep real well........which is not like me... any kind of stimulate..coffee at 4 pm and I am half awake all night.
>
> It can have an accumulative effect from day to day use...the extract. I have been experimenting with this for about a week now and have reduced the ECGC to one tablet (90mg ECGC) for today along with the NADH 10mg. I have felt wonderful all day with no appetite but this is a day to day thing....again I am fine tuning...
>
> MAO inhibition or COMT inhibition is most likely the best way to enhance neurotransmitters and L-dopa. This appears to be a natural way.
>
> If you would care to try I would advise dropping 1 tablet of this extract and 5 mg of NADH on an empty stomach first thing in the morning and wait awhile... and go from there.....
>
> PS: I assume the COMT inhibition will wane after a while and require more extract so I would stagger the dose, least this is my plan. The body has a way of compensating for the comt inhibition my guess is by picking up the MAO.
>
>
>
>
Posted by zefdie on November 13, 2005, at 17:50:57
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences-reply » brainfade, posted by BarbaraCat on November 13, 2005, at 15:27:24
This site goes into COMT as well as the peripheral decarboxylase inhibitors I'm curious about:
http://www.epda.eu.com/medinfo-comtinhibitors.shtm
> Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and order some green tea extract from IHerb. I'll also do a search on COMT since this is a new topic for me, but if you have any good references handy, pass them on. - Barbara
Posted by zefdie on November 13, 2005, at 18:00:32
In reply to Re: Macuna experiences-reply, posted by zefdie on November 13, 2005, at 17:50:57
Here is further info about l-dopa from natural sources (fava beans, as discussed earlier) and absorption issues:
Posted by cardinaldirection on May 27, 2006, at 15:55:32
In reply to L-dopa, beans, and dopa-decarboxylase inhibitors, posted by zefdie on November 13, 2005, at 18:00:32
i JUST stumbled upon this thread, and its like learning that this uphill battle that im fighting w/ as much pride as possible given my brain chemistry is not being faught alone! where did u guys go? i have a few questions, and possible answers as well, but would like to make sure im still not alone... =D
Posted by BarbaraCat on May 28, 2006, at 2:26:24
In reply to where did u go?, posted by cardinaldirection on May 27, 2006, at 15:55:32
You're not alone. I haven't been too active in this board lately. I was too depressed and in pain (fibromyalgia) the earlier part of the year and now that I'm feeling better, I don't have as much time to contribute.
I know I speak for everyone when I say that we're always interested in anything new to share that might help us in our quest. Keep posting.
- Barbara> i JUST stumbled upon this thread, and its like learning that this uphill battle that im fighting w/ as much pride as possible given my brain chemistry is not being faught alone! where did u guys go? i have a few questions, and possible answers as well, but would like to make sure im still not alone... =D
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.