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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by OJ on December 13, 2004, at 2:20:40
Hi, I used to take Klonopin which really helped me a lot, in conjunction with Prozac, and I'm now looking for a Benzo alternative and wondering if Picamilon is considered the best GABA supplement available? If not, does anyone happen to know what is? I've read some great things about it (Picamilon) and would like to give it a try (together with tryptophan or 5-htp, haven't yet decided which one to try first) but does anyone know if it is available in Australia or will I have to pay big bucks to get it shipped from overseas? I've read that it is already quite expensive so if I have to get it shipped I might just try straight GABA or L-theanine instead. Also does anyone know if Picamilon or any GABA supplement a is safe for long-term usage, ie, the rest of my life. Thanks so much for reading my post and any advice whatsoever would be GREATLY appreciated!
Posted by LOOPS on December 13, 2004, at 12:04:52
In reply to Picamilon- top GABA supplement?? Buy in Australia?, posted by OJ on December 13, 2004, at 2:20:40
Hello!
Picamilon is great for anxiety in my experience, but I could only take it for awhile before it seemed to stop working.
Don't panic - I now think, looking back on it, it was because I kept my dosage too high for too long. I was taking 50mg 3xdaily, and sometimes 100mg if I was very stressed out/tired (note, DON'T take 100mg if you're just anxious and not tired or you could end up pacing the room!).
It's not supposed to build up in your system, but others have noticed that it may be DOES. One day I just felt very anxious on it, and came off it, and then supplemented with niacinamide 500mg, inositol 500mg and GABA 500mg which did the trick for awhile also to calm me down. Despite what people say about it being a nutritional supplement, I would still put it in the drug category, as where else do you get gaba bonded molecularly to niacin in nature? Still, doesn't matter - if it works go for it. I just wonder why it suddenly stopped working for me and I did feel more anxious coming off it (which I had to do because I was already getting very anxious on it - aaargh).
These days, I only use picamilon if I am very anxious, on an ad-hoc basis, and then I will use 1-2 50mg tablets, each at least 6 hours apart.
You can buy it from three places on the internet that I know of - one is cheap and the other more expensive. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to post them here - go to google and do a search for picamilon - then go to the 'smiley' page (you'll know what I mean).
BTW don't be put off by my rantings - I did find it very useful (still do), but just don't overdo its use - go carefully.
Loops
Posted by TeeJay on December 13, 2004, at 19:18:22
In reply to Picamilon- top GABA supplement?? Buy in Australia?, posted by OJ on December 13, 2004, at 2:20:40
OJ,
Plenty of stuff in the archives here on picalimon. Its a supplement i've considered many times but still not got around to trying yet. I'm not the only one actually as a few people here have expressed the desire to try it but few have..or if they have, they have neglected to tell us of their experiences.
My guess though isn that its a good "nudge supplement" ie as soon as you get benefits from it, its time to start radically scaling the dosage down or one tends to swing wildly in another direction after a while. With some meds, its very much a case of the least necessary to get the job done.......picamilon IMO is one of these.
Oh by the way......are you really innocent???? ;-)
TJ
Posted by OJ on December 14, 2004, at 2:43:59
In reply to Re: Picamilon- top GABA supplement?? Buy in Australia?, posted by TeeJay on December 13, 2004, at 19:18:22
Thanks Loops and TeeJay for all the great info and advice. At this point, I'm just going to try the first thing I can get my hands on once I get over to Australia (I'm currently in Thailand and the supplement selection is seriously lacking over here). Picamilon, Niacinamide, L-Theanine and Inositol all seem like solid options as far as enhancing GABA activity in the brain (and slowing down/quieting my chronic negative ruminations and concomitant anxiety) and serving as a Klonopin/Benzo alternative. I'm curious though, what do you guys think of Glutamic Acid/Glutamine, I read that it is the direct precursor of GABA? Wouldn't it make sense to just take supplemental Glutamic Acid or is it not that simple?
Alright, well thanks again for all responding to my last post, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!!! Take care...
OJ
PS- Innocent until proven guilty! :-)
Posted by tealady on December 14, 2004, at 8:10:28
In reply to Re: Picamilon- top GABA supplement?? Buy in Australia?, posted by OJ on December 14, 2004, at 2:43:59
> Thanks Loops and TeeJay for all the great info and advice. At this point, I'm just going to try the first thing I can get my hands on once I get over to Australia (I'm currently in Thailand and the supplement selection is seriously lacking over here). Picamilon, Niacinamide, L-Theanine and Inositol all seem like solid options as far as enhancing GABA activity in the brain (and slowing down/quieting my chronic negative ruminations and concomitant anxiety) and serving as a Klonopin/Benzo alternative. I'm curious though, what do you guys think of Glutamic Acid/Glutamine, I read that it is the direct precursor of GABA? Wouldn't it make sense to just take supplemental Glutamic Acid or is it not that simple?
>
> Alright, well thanks again for all responding to my last post, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!!! Take care...
>
> OJ
>
> PS- Innocent until proven guilty! :-)
Australia doesn't have a great selection of supps..and it does cost a bit to import them. Our supplement industry kinda halted about the mid 80's and not a lot of new stuff since then..also a lot of strange combos...
In Australia alternative medicine doesn't have the same "acceptance".. docs aren't qualified in as Gp's, no access to blood tests, medicare etc. for alternativeOut of that list you'd get niacinamide, inositol maybe... I haven't seen any of the others, but this list of Aussie mail-order sites should give you an idea of what's available.
http://www.thexton.com.au/product.php?product_id=490&category_id=&fromcategorymenu=&scrollposition= (enter search)http://www.healthstream.com.au/hl/supersavings.asp
I order form the Us about once a year as I can't get things like P5P B6, NADH, Methylcobalamin, coenzymated B's of any type...
Don't think one can get picamilon either..haven't looked.Here's the Oz govt regulations
http://www.tga.gov.au/docs/html/bringmed/persimp.htm#questionJan
Posted by LOOPS on December 14, 2004, at 8:14:24
In reply to Re: Picamilon- top GABA supplement?? Buy in Australia?, posted by OJ on December 14, 2004, at 2:43:59
Hi -
I think you want l-glutamine, not glutamate. Glutamine is the amino that makes GABA along with B6, zinc and taurine. However before it makes gaba it is excitory, which is odd. I didn't like it much - it was never very consistent, and I've heard some people go a bit nuts on it if taken too much (but that's what you get generally with messing with individual aminos too much). If you take too much, taurine is a good antidote (IME). If you take too much of individual aminos like these, you may find yourself getting angry and irritable - they are powerful stuff!
Hey, if you get l-theanine, try mixing it with the picamilon (you've probably seen that idea at smile2biz) - it does make it much more potent - like 50mg picamilon 90mg l-theanine. I did this and the effect was very nice, much better than l-theanine on its own which often makes me feel a bit flat.
Good Luck
Loops
Posted by OJ on December 14, 2004, at 20:51:52
In reply to Glutamine, posted by LOOPS on December 14, 2004, at 8:14:24
Thanks Tea Lady and Loops (again) for some more wonderful advice and info. What a truly great forum this is!!!
Tea Lady I checked out those Australian mail-order sites (thanks so much for including them by the way) and you're right the selection does look quite limited and surprisingly expensive as well. Major bummer!!! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they have at least one decent health food store in Perth which is where I'll be beginning my Australian odyssey. I found 5-htp on the first website link you sent (I forget the name) but they said it could only be shipped to Queensland which doesn't help me much. Any idea why that is?
Anyway, thanks again for your help and Loops, thanks so much for your help as well. If I can get my hands on Picamillon and Theanine in Australia (which looks unlikely at this point, especially the Picamillon) I'll be sure to try the combination you recommended. Based on your advice I think I'll steer clear of the Glutamine, as the last thing I need is to be more excited/anxious!
Ok, take care guys and thanks so much again!
OJ
Posted by jujube on December 14, 2004, at 21:44:52
In reply to Glutamine, posted by LOOPS on December 14, 2004, at 8:14:24
Loops,
I had seen an old thread of yours in which you talk about the success you were having on DMAE. How much were you taking at the time? Are you still using it?
I would love to get some Picamilon, but it can not be imported into Canada. However, I managed to get some Gaba Plus (Gaba with niacinimide, but I don't think it is molecularly bound) (in spite of the fact that one U.S. distributor had told me it would not make it past Customs). Have you heard of Gaba Plus? Do you think it would be as effective as Picamilon?
Thanks
Tamara
Posted by LOOPS on December 15, 2004, at 8:38:31
In reply to ? for LOOPS, posted by jujube on December 14, 2004, at 21:44:52
Hi jujube -
would that be the Twinlabs Gaba Plus?? I have some as well, but I never got round to using it, as I preferred taking different ratios - niacinamide 500mg, inositol 500, GABA 500mg, and I was still using up some NOW bottles of these. I found these quite helpful for anxiety, but they didn't really address the underlying depression I was going through.
Also the inositol seemed to be de-stabilizing me a little bit. Note - I don't KNOW if this is true, but when I look back through my journal I see I was very up-and-down at this period, which seemed to get worse coinciding with the inositol supplementation. I eventually seemed to get out of this rut by ditching the inositol and re-starting st Johns Wort with lithium orotate.
There are no entries in my journal for the next few months - probably because I was out of my depressive-phase. However eventually I started to feel numb and unmotivated, and that's when I started looking around for other things.
I recently have settled (I hope) on high dose fish oil (with low-fat wholefood diet), GLA, lithium orotate, 5htp (for sleep), Neuroclear ('brain' formula which contains the DMAE + small amounts of tyrosine/phenylalanine (to balance the 5htp in the morning)) and sjw which I am now phasing out as the fish oil really starts making some difference.
Ok, the DMAE - I DID find helpful for awhile, and it did solve quite a few problems, including lack of motivation, indecisiveness, lack of concentration, lack of willpower. HOWEVER, it made me a bit argumentative at times, and it also, with hindsight, made me quite inflexible and 'driven'. It did perk up my tennis playing quite a bit though!! What I mean is - i think if you take a very small amount, and mix it with other things, it can be very useful, but I won't touch the 'pure' stuff in any quantity with a bargepole now. I'd rather be thick than argumentative.
HOpe that helps. I have been through many, many supplements in the battle against anxiety, so if you want any more info about other things, please ask. NOte everyone's reactions are obviously different. I do know some people still taking DMAE along with sjw and finding it very useful. Side-effects increase with dosage I think.
Loops
Posted by jujube on December 15, 2004, at 15:23:27
In reply to gaba plus, posted by LOOPS on December 15, 2004, at 8:38:31
Loops,
Thanks so much for the response and the info. I did get TwinLab's Gaba Plus. I haven't started using it yet, but will be trialing it very soon.
I have been taking the DMAE for a few days now, and have found it to be somewhat helpful. I started with 125 mg and am now taking 250 mg. So far I haven't noticed myself becoming argumentative or rigid. Thanks for the insight though. If I notice it happening to me, then I will cut down on or eliminate the DMAE. I have also added NADH, which seems to be helping as well. I haven't gotten to my therapeutic dose yet I don't think. I started with 2.5 mg, increased to 5 mg on the third day and intend to go to 7.5 mg next and possibly 10 mg later. So, I'll see if I have continued or increased improvement as the dose increases.
Anyways, thanks again. It's so nice to hear about other people's experiences with natural supplements. It helps a lot when I am doing my own trialing. Take care.
Tamara
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 18, 2004, at 10:31:48
In reply to Picamilon- top GABA supplement?? Buy in Australia?, posted by OJ on December 13, 2004, at 2:20:40
> Hi, I used to take Klonopin which really helped me a lot, in conjunction with Prozac, and I'm now looking for a Benzo alternative and wondering if Picamilon is considered the best GABA supplement available? If not, does anyone happen to know what is? I've read some great things about it (Picamilon) and would like to give it a try (together with tryptophan or 5-htp, haven't yet decided which one to try first) but does anyone know if it is available in Australia or will I have to pay big bucks to get it shipped from overseas? I've read that it is already quite expensive so if I have to get it shipped I might just try straight GABA or L-theanine instead. Also does anyone know if Picamilon or any GABA supplement a is safe for long-term usage, ie, the rest of my life. Thanks so much for reading my post and any advice whatsoever would be GREATLY appreciated!
I think you should also seriously consider trying taurine supps.
If you play really loosey-goosey with the chemical language, taurine is GASA, gamma-amino sulphonic acid. It's the same as GABA, except with a sulphur-based acid group, rather than a carbon-based one.
There are dedicated taurine reuptake pumps in every synapse. Taurine does a very similar thing as does GABA. Taurine directly inhibits glutamate receptors.
If you've been under prolonged stress, your synthesis of taurine will be diminished, as it depends quite heavily on SAMe, and the trans-sulfuration pathway from cysteine, and ultimately, from methionine.
Taurine readily crosses the blood/brain barrier, unlike GABA, so you can have pretty speedy effects.
Lar
Posted by tealady on December 18, 2004, at 16:06:12
In reply to Re: Glutamine, posted by OJ on December 14, 2004, at 20:51:52
> Thanks Tea Lady and Loops (again) for some more wonderful advice and info. What a truly great forum this is!!!
>
> Tea Lady I checked out those Australian mail-order sites (thanks so much for including them by the way) and you're right the selection does look quite limited and surprisingly expensive as well. Major bummer!!! I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they have at least one decent health food store in Perth which is where I'll be beginning my Australian odyssey. I found 5-htp on the first website link you sent (I forget the name) but they said it could only be shipped to Queensland which doesn't help me much. Any idea why that is?
>
All states are independant as regards health, education etc. So each have their own policies. Queensland seems to be a bit more forward thinking.
I've lived in Queensland and NSW...so no idea abou WA.
But those 2 websites are the best I've found..I've ordered from both. Best prices and widest range that I know of. Some chemists have lines too, and supermarkets have begun stocking some basic supps but much the same pricewise so far and not as great a range.
Some compounding chemists have got in supps from the US for me with their orders and some will make up some for me too, and even put into capsules..but it does cost :-)
I see you are getting the picture <g>I've been thinking for a while of taurine too..or magnesium taurate...I think from o'seas (mag taurate definitely not in Oz), not sure if Mushashi have a line with taurine powder in it or not as yet.
That would be the only possibility for that one.Best wishes, Jan
Posted by tealady on December 18, 2004, at 18:39:06
In reply to Re: Glutamine, posted by OJ on December 14, 2004, at 20:51:52
This is the end of the thread.
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