![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 342 to 366 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:56:42
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:14:40
> dopamine supersensitivity as a breakdown in balance of D1/D2 receptors, possible caused by long term antidepressant use?...
>I read this as IMI was potentiating the stimulant effect of something else not that IMI was causing the hypersensitivity of the autoreceptors.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1979237The second one I read as having to do with a genetic problem causing the sensitivity, no?
Posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:58:38
In reply to Re: Hives » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 13:52:40
>
> . I wonder if taking adequate amounts of quercetin would do the job also or even Cromolyn Sodium. I should also be aggressively trying to counteract the inflammation occuring in my body as a result of this allergic condition, shouldn't I? It's so wierd when you get something out of the blue like this that you haven't had the rest of your life. If I could normalize my immune response, I could attack this at the start... Oh well, too many problems, too little time and money...
>
>
> Yeah, anything that stabilizes the mast cells that store histamine should help.
>
> RayDo you take anything like that or don't you have a need for it? I know that you take the anti-homocysteine (anti-inflammatory) supplements.
K
Posted by tealady on October 25, 2004, at 22:42:34
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 25, 2004, at 4:24:39
>
> > I can't seem to figure out what cholinergic drugs do? With me my bladder just retained urine..and I couldn't go..until the T3 (thyroid hormones) began to wear off and then I got a steady trickle for a day or so.
> > I went to 2 docs at the time but both just put a question mark in my records and did the usual pretend I didn't visit them them..errr except that the bill payment was recorded <g>. Apparently what I should have done is go to emergency and get catherised..now I know grr
> >
> > So with all of this I'm trying to work out if acetylcholine, choline, or even say lecithin will
> > have the same effect as cholinergic drugs??
> > Really I'm so lost here??
> >
> > Is this what you mean? I really don't understand the terminology. What is meant by cholinergic?
>
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> From what I've read just now on the net, acetylcholine causes contraction of the bladder muscles to initiate urination....is that how you see it too?I'm not sure Ray.
I spoke to Larrian on the net (she was a gyno-urologist) about this at the time and she said it was probably a combo of things..one linked to the fact that the bladder neck has numerous thyroid receptors ..which I guess maybe somehow reacted to the T3 in Armour. ..beats me.
I think the T3 helps with contraction of the bladder neck..but why one can't voluntarily release when you first encounter the T3 in Armour beats me...
(Larrian thought it may be related also to nerve damage from childbirth..years b4,combined with the T3 receptors in the bladder neck..she could be right, beyond me)What's really strange is that my own FT3 and Ft4 levels before thyroid meds weren't that low, although I had several symptoms of lacking thyroid hormones like the orange skin etc. which also has now disappeared.
I wonder sometimes if the antibodies alter ones thyroid hormones so they are not usable, but still show up as normal in blood tests..haven't heard of that one BTW..one of my dumb "theories"..but that whole thing is another topic, and one I doubt anyone has looked at!******************************************
Here's an old post of mine from when I had that bladder reaction
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=25868.253
"I'm on day 2 on Armour 1 grain. That's what I started on. Strange you mention the fluid/water retention. By lunchtime today my stomach had swollen up so it had a 7.5 months pregnant look- very taut as well. Then I got tired and lay down- fell asleep for 3 or 4 hrs. On waking I have been urinating lots and the bloating and tautness is gradually going down. I have only taken 1grain in the morning. It's 6 pm now, and the fluid retention has 3/4 gone"and an old post of someone else's.
"I have had terrible pains, muscle spasms, extreme fatigue, bloat and water retention, erratic heart beat etc. Im wondering if its because I was put one 1 grain and thats too much to start with or if its just that I cant tolerate any T3. Id been on Synthroid for many years and never had these problems..."
(yeah I went thru all of that too, just wanted to show I'm not the only one..but it is rare..only a couple of other girls have had this reaction that I've heard of in the past 3 years..so that probably makes it about a 1:10000 reaction <g>, at least <1:100)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=27696.1
"I find that my stomach (or bladder?) swells after the Armour. Actually I think it is my bladder as I cannot pass water until the Armour starts wearing off, and then only a trickle to start with. Before I'd run to the toilet at least you 15 times a day, same as you. And I didn't get much notice either- ie. I couldn't hole the need to urinate.
Now I can't pee(until the meds effect wears off). So in the afternoon it may trickle out , and in the middle of the night- you know about 4am , I am awoken by the need to burst and out it comes! Have you ever had this?
My face was extremely bloated before the Armour, especially when I was on T4 meds only(trialled for one month). At least I think it was when I was on T4- that was in August, it could have been before that. Sorry. So were my eyelids puffy.
Face and eyelids are no longer swollen on Armour. all facial swelling has gone. I'm still trying to figure out what is going on. I'm on week 3 of Armour, but I'm having that bladder/stomach swelling -urinating problem."
and one thing Larrian wrote about effects on bladder relating to celexa or other ssri and having difficulty in urinating ..sorry can't find original post(probably in one the forums that no longer exist)
"It's a very complicated issue of capillary endothelial response etc and serotonin/acetylcholine receptors in tissue membranes "..
it was all in a book and research papers she had written on cystitis apparently <g>
Here's the only paper I can find on a search..but I don't have cystitis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8220989
(put this paragraph in for Kara..probably not helpful)http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=25868.313
At one point, I had emailed Dr. Derry on behalf of one of my Texas members who was having problems with bloating on Armour. He replied to the effect that this would occur as healing was taking place, and that it would resolve itself in time.
*****************it does resolve itself it time..I just don't really understand what was happening...
It actually makes your ability to hold way too good for your own good..and your bladder stretches beyond where it is supposed to..I was holding up to 1100ml urine (supposed to hold about 300-400 or so apparently)<g> Hey, I got it down to only having to get up once during the night, sigh. I'd been told by docs to learn to hold on! ..and to drink MORE when I told them my symptoms!
Back to the MAIN point..
I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..
Now DO I want it? LOL..
Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>I tried to work this out last year
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/264169.htmlThe only thing I THINK I get is that T3 raises aceylcholinesterase?? Is that what you make out?
So the maybe it also allows more acetylcholine to be made ..or it to be made faster..or maybe it makes less?
>
> Found this abstract about thyroid and bladder...
>
> Influence of the thyroid state on the intrinsic contractile properties of the bladder muscle.
>
thanks for those abstracts Ray. Thanks for trying to help too<g>
Not sure what I make out of them..seem to be saying that thyroid hormones (T4) makes acteylcholine work better? like maybe thyroid hormones are needed sometimes too as receptors like in one of those articles they found "L-tri-iodothyronine(ie T3) nuclear receptors in fetal rat acetylcholinesterase-positive neurons" for the actylcholine to work ..
I note they used T4(and not T3 which is strange in research?)
and the effects I (and others) have noticed haven't occurred noticeably on T4..just on Armour ..strange>
> The enzyme which breaks down acetetylcholine is called acetylcholinesterase - pesticides and deadly nightshade foods contain inhibitors.as above with T3 <g> I think it helps with that one..not completely sure
>
> Vitamin B1 deficiency and alcohol consumption adversely affect acetylcholine (B1 is also needed to make NADPH)
>
Thanks again Ray.
I do have a bigger concern than all of this ..but this is a part of it.
My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine osmalality and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?
This is the reaon I had the concern with the bowel cleanse stuf..I don't think I need any more dehydration.Apparently to make ADH one needs Acetylcholine..so I was just trying to work it out, sigh.
Jan
>
>
Posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 3:20:06
In reply to Re: Hives » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:58:38
>
> Do you take anything like that or don't you have a need for it? I know that you take the anti-homocysteine (anti-inflammatory) supplements.
>I have taken quercetin in the past, but at the moment DHA and EPA work well enough. The quercetin worked brilliantly to start with, but after a while I also needed to take MSM to support it's detoxification, and not undermine sulfation of dopamine, for example.
I was wondering why you have symptoms of excess histamine, when noradrenaline should inhibit it's release - I was wondering if SSRIs or NSRIs could desensitize the noradrenaline receptor, so that histamine is released...this abstract seems to show that it might be possible....but then you can normally find an abstract to justify any line of thought!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6265809
Posted by tealady on October 26, 2004, at 4:58:23
In reply to Re: Hives » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 3:20:06
Hi Ray,
Just wondered if you had ever had one of these done?
The doc who is into the Gut-liver detox ran one on me,. It involved someting like a ECG I guess..stick circles on your hands etc and run something electrical..great description I know<g>It shows up a "Fluid Distribution" problem ..intracellular/extracellular water out by about 8.1% (maybe fits in with the osmolality serum test)
Also it showed "toxicity factor" was low , 3.1% with apparently <10% being good...which means my amalgams maybe aren't hurting me too much? No idea really<g>
Oh and my "Impendance Index" was too low...so I'm easy to electrocute I guess? LOL(OK no ideas)
Just wondered if you ever had one of these..or anyone?
This doc got the idea from a conference he went to lately in Vienna I thinkNo worries if you've never heard of it, don't expect anyone to <g>
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 26, 2004, at 6:35:56
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 22, 2004, at 17:29:39
>> > At a stretch I guess extra VitD could caus extra calcium (given sufficient amounts of other things..oestogen being one of probably lots)
>
> One thing I like about vitamin D is it's autoimmune reducing effect!
>
> > and calc could lower available thyroid hormones in those on T4 replacement..which may feedback to pit/hypo and raise TSH..if that pathway is working optimally!
>
> Why would calcium lower thyroid hormones? I'm not sure of the way it would do that? Saw in interesting idea reagrding vitamin A an article said thyroid receptors can become over sensitive during hypothyroid, so when T3 or T4 is supplemented, a person can be a little 'hyper' - vitamin A can desensitise the T3 receptor to help with this - not sure it would be good in some cases though!
>
hmm You'd think there would be a bit of spare carotene in the body anyway if you were hypothyroid, so that could provide any needed extra VitA as you became non-hypo? My orangy skin times disappeared with thyroid hormones.Re Calcium:
http://thyroid.about.com/library/weekly/aa100500b.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11716045Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 12:08:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 22, 2004, at 1:12:13
Due to worries about the excitotoxicity of glutamine, I've been looking for alternatives to glutamine to help my gut wall. I decided to try NAG (n-acetyl-glucosamine) to see if it helped - it did, but was amazed by what else it did! More brain clarity, better humour, reduced joint stiffness, warm joints, warm kidneys. I have tried glucosamine before but not noticed much effect - the n-acetyl-version seems to be wonderful for me!
Found that it promotes the synthesis of hyaluronan, a carbohydrate rich in most tissue, particularly skin, joints and bone. Also found it helps the function of dopamine and nordrenaline neurons..
"it is concluded that hyaluronan receptors exist in discrete nerve cell populations of the brain, including many noradrenaline and dopamine neurones."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8930339&dopt=Abstract
It's also involved in cell hydration (think betaine and taurine are too), seems to be low in hypothyroid as well. 50% of hyaluronan is in skin, and it helps nourish and detoxify the skin.
http://www.ctds.info/hyaluronic_acid_2.html
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 13:43:47
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 25, 2004, at 18:56:42
>
> I read this as IMI was potentiating the stimulant effect of something else not that IMI was causing the hypersensitivity of the autoreceptors.
>
I read it that perhaps anti depressants can damage dopamine/dopamine receptor balance and sensitivity - but perhaps I'm reading too much into it?!"The results indicate that chronic treatment with ADs potentiates the behavioural responses mediated by the stimulation of postsynaptic D2 receptors in the mesolimbic system and suggest that this behavioural supersensitivity is due to enhanced neurotransmission at the D1 receptor level"
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 13:49:11
In reply to Vitality and Longevity analysis? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 26, 2004, at 4:58:23
> Hi Ray,
> Just wondered if you had ever had one of these done?
> The doc who is into the Gut-liver detox ran one on me,. It involved someting like a ECG I guess..stick circles on your hands etc and run something electrical..great description I know<g>
>
> It shows up a "Fluid Distribution" problem ..intracellular/extracellular water out by about 8.1% (maybe fits in with the osmolality serum test)
>
> Also it showed "toxicity factor" was low , 3.1% with apparently <10% being good...which means my amalgams maybe aren't hurting me too much? No idea really<g>
>
> Oh and my "Impendance Index" was too low...so I'm easy to electrocute I guess? LOL(OK no ideas)
>
> Just wondered if you ever had one of these..or anyone?
> This doc got the idea from a conference he went to lately in Vienna I think
>
> No worries if you've never heard of it, don't expect anyone to <g>
I've heard of something called 'the quantum' that does similar things, but haven't heard of what your doctor uses - would be interested in what it's called!Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 14:02:57
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 26, 2004, at 6:35:56
> >
> hmm You'd think there would be a bit of spare carotene in the body anyway if you were hypothyroid, so that could provide any needed extra VitA as you became non-hypo? My orangy skin times disappeared with thyroid hormones.
>Thanks for the thyroid calcium links - useful to know!
I've got orangy skin, never when away after my carrot juice saga about 8 years ago!
I think vegetable and fish vitamin A sources are different - fish appear to have cis vitamin A which also seems to have a beneficial effect on acetylcholine receptors, and thyroid metabolism - dr megson has done a lot of research with autistic children.
http://www.megson.com/HYPOTHESIS/MEDICAL_HYPOTHESIS_ARTICLE.html
Ray
Posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 14:57:04
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?, posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 12:08:38
> Due to worries about the excitotoxicity of glutamine, I've been looking for alternatives to glutamine to help my gut wall. I decided to try NAG (n-acetyl-glucosamine) to see if it helped - it did, but was amazed by what else it did! More brain clarity, better humour, reduced joint stiffness, warm joints, warm kidneys. I have tried glucosamine before but not noticed much effect - the n-acetyl-version seems to be wonderful for me!
>
> Found that it promotes the synthesis of hyaluronan, a carbohydrate rich in most tissue, particularly skin, joints and bone. Also found it helps the function of dopamine and nordrenaline neurons..
>
> "it is concluded that hyaluronan receptors exist in discrete nerve cell populations of the brain, including many noradrenaline and dopamine neurones."
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8930339&dopt=Abstract
>
> It's also involved in cell hydration (think betaine and taurine are too), seems to be low in hypothyroid as well. 50% of hyaluronan is in skin, and it helps nourish and detoxify the skin.
>
> http://www.ctds.info/hyaluronic_acid_2.html
>
> RayRay,
I am blown away by how in touch you are with the effects of these supplements. How can you tell that your kidneys are warm?I had never even heard of NAG. Why is that "safe" when glutamine isn't even though they do the same job?
Kara
Posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 15:20:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 26, 2004, at 13:43:47
>
> >
> > I read this as IMI was potentiating the stimulant effect of something else not that IMI was causing the hypersensitivity of the autoreceptors.
> >
> I read it that perhaps anti depressants can damage dopamine/dopamine receptor balance and sensitivity - but perhaps I'm reading too much into it?!
>
> "The results indicate that chronic treatment with ADs potentiates the behavioural responses mediated by the stimulation of postsynaptic D2 receptors in the mesolimbic system and suggest that this behavioural supersensitivity is due to enhanced neurotransmission at the D1 receptor level"
>
> Ray
OK, I'll buy that. I wish that they had specified which type(s) of ADs rather than testing Immipramine and then stating that ADs in general (meaning all of them) can cause this problem. I'm wondering if this would pertain to the MAOIs.I got out my book last night on amino acid precursor loading to look up some information. I haven't give Norival a try yet. Are you still taking that? If so, how much and how often? Do you take any other amino acids now (besides NAG)? I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 25, 2004, at 22:42:34
>
> I'm not sure Ray.
> I spoke to Larrian on the net (she was a gyno-urologist) about this at the time and she said it was probably a combo of things..one linked to the fact that the bladder neck has numerous thyroid receptors ..which I guess maybe somehow reacted to the T3 in Armour. ..beats me.
> I think the T3 helps with contraction of the bladder neck..but why one can't voluntarily release when you first encounter the T3 in Armour beats me...
> (Larrian thought it may be related also to nerve damage from childbirth..years b4,combined with the T3 receptors in the bladder neck..she could be right, beyond me)Think I'm out of my depth here! This abstract says that hyperthyroid increases bladder emptying, hypo reduces....but not in your case! saw some references to antidepressants, inhibiting bladder emptying because of receptors for monoamine neurotransmitters in the bladder, and also the antagonism of acetylchloline.
Nitric oxide appears to be important...
'Physiologic role of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase in female lower urinary tract.'
with regard to t3 and cholinesterase, it seems that t3 upregulates both the production and degradation of acetylcholine. In your case perhaps the production side has failed, but degradation is still occuring, degrading acetylcholine faster than you can make it?
Have you ever tried the sugar mannose? it can help remove bacteria from the bladder and unriary tract, to help with bladder conditions.
>
> Back to the MAIN point..
> I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..B5 makes acetylCoA that transports the acetyl to the choline....manganese is needed too. Hope it helps!
> Now DO I want it? LOL..
> Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>Who knows!!! sounds like too little, but maybe not!
> My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine osmalality and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?yesterday posted some info about hyaluronan, a sugar that hold 1000 times it's own weight in water, to help hyrdrate cells - it's what holds the synovial fluid together in joints. Betaine and taurine are also 'osmolytes'.
Have heard that the immune system doesn't like squished cells, and destroys them, causing inflammation, free radicals and more squished cells! - hydrating them might get their shape back?
here's an abstract about how hyaluronan is involved in fluid regulation - not sure if it would be good or bad for you.. 50% of the body's hyaluronan is in the skin, and helps stop wrinkling of the skin. Other sugars are important in kidney and skin structure, also in the regulation of the immune system too - blood groups are only different because of the sugars attached
> Apparently to make ADH one needs Acetylcholine..so I was just trying to work it out, sigh.I did see an abstract that said acetylcholine metabolism can inhibit the actions of ADH - didn't see one that mentioned it's production.
Although not your condition, this abstract talks about the interactions of adh with thyroid etc...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11228040
Hope some of the info might help..Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 6:19:24
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
Jan have you heard of aquaporin? - the water channels in cell membranes.
Abstract about them ...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8815812&dopt=Abstract
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 10:52:34
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 14:57:04
> I am blown away by how in touch you are with the effects of these supplements. How can you tell that your kidneys are warm?Probably got more sensitive after a few years of kinesiology - think hypnosis and meditation helped too. For practice, turmeric, ginger, lemon and a magnesium supplement are good if held near different areas of the body, to get used to 'tuning in'!!
>
> I had never even heard of NAG. Why is that "safe" when glutamine isn't even though they do the same job?
glutamine can convert to glutamate in one step, but NAG is a sugar(even though it's made from glutamine), that is involved in tissue rebuilding (especially gut wall).
Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 11:02:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 26, 2004, at 15:20:32
> >
> I got out my book last night on amino acid precursor loading to look up some information. I haven't give Norival a try yet. Are you still taking that? If so, how much and how often?1-2 capsules a day (300mg of n-acetyl tyrosine)
>Do you take any other amino acids now (besides NAG)?NAG is really an amino sugar, or glycoaminoglycan (GAG). Sometimes take methionine with methylfactors, NAC (in thiodox), phenylalanine, and just bought some egg white protein to see how I do with that - I ought to eat more protein but struggle to eat animals!
>I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.As far as I know, it only goes one way - never heard of enzymes that work the other way, but is probably best to check with a few people.
Ray
Posted by Simus on October 27, 2004, at 15:46:17
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 10:52:34
> Probably got more sensitive after a few years of kinesiology
Ray, can you help me with this kinesiology concept? You are not the first person whose opinion I respect who trusts kinesiology. But my mind just can't grasp the science of it. If there was some sort of scientific explanation... I had a flaky woman (not flaky because of kinesiology - just flaky in general) once hold a bottle of some supplement up to me (through my coat and clothes if I remember correctly) and then made me hold my thumb and first finger together and she used the effort to pull them apart as the determining factor as to whether or not I needed the supplement. She wasn't very impressive, to say the least. But I have heard of so many trustworthy people relying on it to completely discredit it. Thanks in advance.
Simus
Posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 17:25:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 11:02:51
> >I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.
>
> As far as I know, it only goes one way - never heard of enzymes that work the other way, but is probably best to check with a few people.
>
> Ray
>My understanding is almost all of this pathways work BOTH ways, depending on the relative concentration gradients. I think there are a few that ONLY work in one way.., I think they say these are irreversible, but I'm not sure.
The enzymes act as catylsts to speed up the reactions ..mostly I think by lowering the thresholds for the reactions to occur, so that more converts along the pathways. I think they speed up reactions too though.
I'm not sure if the enzymes work in both directions or not?
So with say tyrosine, you add some in your body..this makes it way higher than the dopamine..so it converts..then if the dopamine is higher than the adrenaline..it will convert until the dopamine and adrenaline are in balance I guess. If you already have lots of adrenaline, it should stay as dopamine..but I suspect you always get a bit of conversion anyway.As I think you've worked out..its the adrenaline thats limits how much tyrosine one can take...or the thyroid hormones .
The tyrosine also goes into thyroid hormones along the pathway somewhere too. ..so if you are low of them it should shunt off that way too.
As I already take some thyroid hormones most of my tyrosine seems to go to the dopamine pathway..and then some to adrenaline..which limits me. Although some still converts to thyroid hormones...wch makes tyrosine a problem in those already on enough thyroid hormones, or who are hyperthyroid.
I doubt any adrenaline would convert back as adrenaline gets used up fairly quickly doesn't it? Not sure but I think it stimulates cortisol to lower it?
But if adrenaline is used up like that , it would make the amount of adrenaline relatively low which would make your body always favour converting some into adrenaline.
o I don't know what I'm talking about here, just how I THINK it may work.Now if you have low adrenals this may be fine, unless they need a rest I guess.
Anyway I think the answer to your question is yes they go both ways..but not usually.
I even suspect with me tyrosine may go to PEA as well<g>, but I haven't looked at that pathway lately.
The converions are sooo much mostly one way that everyone just assumes they only go one way.
I'm pretty sure I don't go the "right" way always too with these pathwaysIt has to do with whether you have enough of all the enzymes and cofactors as well as how much of the substrates(the relative concentration gradients) you have etc..which is why P5P is an important one with me.
Its also why you have to take supplements as a "group" and why usually just taking one thing doesn't work unless that was all you were short on.Jan
Posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 5:58:52
> Think I'm out of my depth here! This abstract says that hyperthyroid increases bladder emptying, hypo reduces....but not in your case! saw some references to antidepressants, inhibiting bladder emptying because of receptors for monoamine neurotransmitters in the bladder, and also the antagonism of acetylcholine.
Ray, thank you so much for looking at this and getting back to me. I feel "upset" about all of this at present.
It's just that when I described what happened to this bladder nurse, she said that's what happens to some people on cholinergic drugs. Before this, all I drew was a blank from the docs.
(The problem with this is caus I didn't get catherised my bladder got overstretched, but really get off topic <g>)
I looked up cholinergic drug reaction and bladder and got this yesterday
----------------------------------------
"acetylcholinesterase (AChE), an enzyme of fundamental interest for its biological activity and its special biophysical properties. It acts very rapidly to stop neurotransmission at cholinergic synapses like those found in the brain and at neuromuscular junctions--consistent with the need for speedy responses in the neuromuscular system.
Competitive inhibition: A competitive drug can compete with the substrate for the active site of the enzyme. If the drug bind to the enzyme site it prevents binding of the normal substrate. The drug will just occupy the active site and then leaves it unchanged. Another drug or a substrate will then take its place. The action of the enzyme is slowed down by the number of times it get occupied by a competitive substance.Drugs can exert their effects by an interaction with an enzyme and therefore altering a physiological response. The neurological disorder myathenia gravis, for example, is characterized by profound muscle weakness due to acetylcholine deficiency. The cholinergic drug neostigmine is used to interfere with inactivation of acteylcholine by acetylcholinestrease at the neuromuscular junction."
---------------------------------------So that means if I had a cholinergic drug type reaction to the T3 somehow the acetylcholine must have been increased maybe?
But then most hypothyoids on thyroid replacement or before any meds complain of "brain fog"...inability to think of the right word, almost non existent memory etc.. supposed to get better when you get your levels right and your brain starts getting repaired I guess
Mine was bad but went worse on Armour(T4/T3 pig's thyroid that has a higher T3:T4 ratio than human) only..adding in T4 seems to make it a bit better(hopefully).So his means the Armour must have reduced my acetylcholine, as that's what is needed for memory isn't it? I guess it's more complicated than just one neurotransmitter.
My reaction time is better on Armour than before although nowhere near normal..so that means acetylcholinesterase is increased I guess?
Muscular strength slowly improving too..although still not normal. In fact that "vitality and longevity test" picked that up too "active tissue mass is 68% of ideal"<g>..I'm surprised it picked up what it did. I agree with its readings too.
(I've been on Armour for 3 years now, and added T4 slowly for a year)I noted as I added the T4 my bladder control stuff lessened but my memory improved.
I know, I'm strange. I'm not a typical hypothyroid. I think if I'd known about tyrosine and some of these other helpful coenzymated B's and other products you mentioned etc I may not have needed thyroid hormones...but when started I didn't. Still hopeful one day I can work it out and get fixed up.
> Nitric oxide appears to be important...Well I seem to have strange reactions with NO/nitrates/nitrites too ..started last September after a dental anaesthetic. (I think it's all here back in October 2003)
I seem to be able to eat some bacon now. Our bacon is not as good as the dry cured stuff I got in Britain though.>
> 'Physiologic role of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase in female lower urinary tract.'
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15353953
>
> with regard to t3 and cholinesterase, it seems that t3 upregulates both the production and degradation of acetylcholine. In your case perhaps the production side has failed, but degradation is still occurring, degrading acetylcholine faster than you can make it?
>
> Have you ever tried the sugar mannose? it can help remove bacteria from the bladder and urinary tract, to help with bladder conditions.
>
I haven't tried mannose.
My bladder and my gut to my knowledge seem just fine..gee something is<g>.
The problem with my bladder is ..as I did what the docs, physios etc said to do and held on like + that time when I first started on Armour and wasn't advised to go to emergency(and didn't know)..well if your bladder stretched too much if loses its elasticity and you need catheters etc.
Apparently I'm luckier than most, but if I don't stop stretching it , I'll have to catherize all the time...yuk ..so I have to cut down on water intake> >
> > Back to the MAIN point..
> > I have got around to buying some soy lecithin...which will give me some choline and presumably some additional acetylcholine..
>
> B5 makes acetylCoA that transports the acetyl to the choline....manganese is needed too. Hope it helps!Well I stared soy lecithin yesterday.
I also found a bottle of coenzymate B complex sublinguals which I started a couple of days ago too. That should provide me with the P5P and also it has the coenzmated form of B2 and B3 in it..as well as a non methl form of B12..so far Ok. Soles of feet a bit of deep purple first night but not so much now.
http://www.iherb.com/coen.html
I'll go take some manganese thanks. have some I take very occasionally on a just in case basis. Never noticed any difference with it.
>
>
> > Now DO I want it? LOL..
> > Like am I short on acetylcholine or do I have to much now?? <grin>
>
> Who knows!!! sounds like too little, but maybe not!Thanks, I mean I :) That's what I think too...hope I can't hurt :)
>
>
> > My ADH (vasopressin) came back too low (0.6) and that was on one of my highest oestrogen days in the month(oestrogen is supposed to raise ADH)...which fits in with my thirst , together with low urine salacity and high serum osmalility(extracellular). ..so it's looking like my main problem is squished cells maybe?
>
> yesterday posted some info about hyaluronan, a sugar that hold 1000 times it's own weight in water, to help hyrdrate cells - it's what holds the synovial fluid together in joints. Betaine and taurine are also 'osmolytes'.Well it look like when I put my order in o'seas I need some betaine, probably TMG from what you found?
and some NAC..although a compounding pharmacy gets that in from the US and will sell me some made up into capsules for a small fortune..so at least I can source it.
>
> Have heard that the immune system doesn't like squished cells, and destroys them, causing inflammation, free radicals and more squished cells! - hydrating them might get their shape back?
>
> here's an abstract about how hyaluronan is involved in fluid regulation - not sure if it would be good or bad for you.. 50% of the body's hyaluronan is in the skin, and helps stop wrinkling of the skin. Other sugars are important in kidney and skin structure, also in the regulation of the immune system too - blood groups are only different because of the sugars attached
>actually sound exactly what I need..something else get from O'seas somewhere? I remember reading this yesterday, but I've forgotten now. I was thinking it would be good. I'll look again. I can't get NAG in Oz either, what a surprise <g>.
The problem with all of this is ..one can get away usually with importing up to US$25 amounts only..then one gets hit with customs..like over double the price, long delays, maybe even lost or rejected etc...and postage from iherb is $40US <g> each order...so if nothing else that limits one. Most companies won't even sell to Oz due to customs. (whine<g>)
Only thing I can find with NAG in it..
http://www.thexton.com.au/product.php?product_id=1025
http://www.caramal.com/ltyg/readqa.asp?ReferralName=accaq&ReferralURL=I'm a bit confused as to the link between glutamine and glucosamine? I had a quick look and couldn't see it.
Although it sounds just what I need to..especially considering did try cutting back on drinking as advised by endo, and I just craved carbs..like chocy, lollies, a whole sponge cake..and I used to eat healthy too..
Carbs retain water I think? or is it they don't require as much water to metabolise?. Not sure but I do know the weight loss for the first couple of days on a low carb diet is mostly water loss.My mouth saliva tastes extremely salty,
my eyes sting like from salt..I was soo thirsty..and is still drank and voided way too much. Can't sleep at night from thirst,..I gave up after a few night and last night I drank water!!
Besides bladder stuff, apparently one's kidneys can't handle that volume of urine and will just pack it in as one gets older.
But yesterday I decided to drink more again..and
and today I'm just going to drink as much as I want!!!!! well maybe not THAT much, but I just can't do the staying thirsty thing any more..
I read yesterday that low adrenals can mask this problem..and I think my cortisol /adrenals are on the improve..not real low as before, just can't handle stress now.
My blood presure is increasing too ..probably adrenals kicking in (I hope)
http://patients.uptodate.com/topic.asp?file=fldlytes/6651&title=Adrenal+insufficiency
I've always been thirsty, but now its worse..very difficult to distract my mind from the thirst...Thanks Ray, your a great help
Actually I might go to a sauna and see if I can sweat some of this salt out and water too sometime
Jan
Posted by karaS on October 27, 2004, at 23:16:00
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 10:52:34
>
> > I am blown away by how in touch you are with the effects of these supplements. How can you tell that your kidneys are warm?
>
> Probably got more sensitive after a few years of kinesiology - think hypnosis and meditation helped too. For practice, turmeric, ginger, lemon and a magnesium supplement are good if held near different areas of the body, to get used to 'tuning in'!!I don't know much about kinesiology. I'll have to look into it.
> > I had never even heard of NAG. Why is that "safe" when glutamine isn't even though they do the same job?
>
> glutamine can convert to glutamate in one step, but NAG is a sugar(even though it's made from glutamine), that is involved in tissue rebuilding (especially gut wall).
So NAG doesn't metabolize to glutamate?
Posted by karaS on October 27, 2004, at 23:23:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 11:02:51
> > >
> > I got out my book last night on amino acid precursor loading to look up some information. I haven't give Norival a try yet. Are you still taking that? If so, how much and how often?
>
> 1-2 capsules a day (300mg of n-acetyl tyrosine)
>
> >Do you take any other amino acids now (besides NAG)?
>
> NAG is really an amino sugar, or glycoaminoglycan (GAG). Sometimes take methionine with methylfactors, NAC (in thiodox), phenylalanine, and just bought some egg white protein to see how I do with that - I ought to eat more protein but struggle to eat animals!> >I'm trying to remember the sequence of events in the brain. Tyrosine becomes dopamine and then some of that gets metablized to norepinephrine. Does the process ever go backwards and NE becomes DA again? I doubt it but I want to be sure of this because I'm going to make some decisions where this is critical to know.
>
> As far as I know, it only goes one way - never heard of enzymes that work the other way, but is probably best to check with a few people.
>
> Ray
Thanks. I know what you mean about getting adequate protein. I find it harder and harder to consume animal protein.K
Posted by raybakes on October 28, 2004, at 7:57:18
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
Hi Jan - meant to be decorating today and avoiding the computer...but couldn't resist looking up this link...
Austistic children have problems maintaining their sulphate levels, and so have problems detoxifying. They also have problems digesting because the hormone CCK needs sulphate to activate it. CCK is needed for the release of vasopressin and oxytocin.
Dose response of arginine vasopressin to the CCK-B agonist pentagastrin.
Abelson JL, Le Melledo J, Bichet DG.
University of Michigan Department of Psychiatry, Anxiety Disorders Program, Ann Arbor, MI, USA.
Cholecystokinin (CCK) is a peptide neurotransmitter that modulates hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis activity and may be involved in fear or anxiety states. Arginine vasopressin (AVP) also modulates HPA axis activity and may play a role in fear conditioning. Few human studies have examined interactions between CCK and AVP systems. To explore relationships between CCK-B receptor activation, the HPA axis response, and AVP release, a dose-response study using the CCK-B receptor agonist pentagastrin was conducted. Adrenocorticotropin (ACTH) and cortisol results have been previously reported and AVP data is presented here. Thirty-five healthy subjects were randomly assigned to receive placebo, or 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, or 0.8 microg/kg doses of pentagastrin. AVP release appeared to increase with increasing doses of the CCK-B agonist. However, this may have been due to a greater percentage of subjects releasing AVP in the higher dose groups, rather than a direct effect of dose on magnitude of response. AVP and ACTH responses were correlated, but AVP response alone could not account for the magnitude of the ACTH response. AVP release was significantly correlated with anxiety symptom responses. These findings suggest a possible role for the CCK-B receptor in AVP release, which may be at least partially separate from its role in modulation of the HPA axis. Further work is needed to determine whether these are physiologically meaningful interactions and to determine their functional implications
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 4:05:09
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 27, 2004, at 15:46:17
> Ray, can you help me with this kinesiology concept? You are not the first person whose opinion I respect who trusts kinesiology. But my mind just can't grasp the science of it. If there was some sort of scientific explanation... I had a flaky woman (not flaky because of kinesiology - just flaky in general) once hold a bottle of some supplement up to me (through my coat and clothes if I remember correctly) and then made me hold my thumb and first finger together and she used the effort to pull them apart as the determining factor as to whether or not I needed the supplement. She wasn't very impressive, to say the least. But I have heard of so many trustworthy people relying on it to completely discredit it. Thanks in advance.
> Simus
>Thanks Simus! I saw around 5 or 6 kinesiologists before I found one I was happy with. Kinesiology isn't a therapy itself, more a feedback tool to let the body give answers to questions asked of it (does sound flaky, sorry!). The reliabilty of it is only as good as the person asking the qestions - and is also reliant on the clarity of the patient's body about their condition. Some kinesiologists do use that finger test, but I would trust one finger test to give a supplement - it's too open to bias from the practitioner - it's very easy to will something to work.
The kinesiology I use requires arm, leg, skin pinch, tongue, neck, arm & leg length tests, eyes open and closed, before a supplement is given - the body is also given the chance to say 'i don't know' to any of these tests, as well as yes or no.
I really feel you need around an hour and a half for each session - personally, I've found it takes a lot of sessions to start to see a pattern developing.
Hope that wasn't too confusing!
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 29, 2004, at 4:52:43
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 28, 2004, at 7:57:18
Hi Ray,
Hope your decorating went well. and thanks for all your help, you've somehow come across the two things my body doesn't seem to handle normally probably, NO/nitrates/nitrites and sulphates/sulphites which is interesting, and I've come across CCK before too, although I've never looked at it ..and I'll need more time and probably a better brain to work it out. I'd read about aquaporins just b4 you mentioned them in that book I told you about "Review of Medical Physiology" by Ganong. There are 5 types apparently, one in the brain too..
I've been on uni study break for exams, so I figure I'd better start studying now as exams are next week..twas no use in the past week or so anyway as my memory wouldn't work for that long!(true<g>). I have good results so far..but I can't remember a thing..oh except osmosis and kidneys<g>
So I'm drinking again....do they have a waterholics anonymous(an AA equivalent)? I can't stop drinking..but I need to drink so I can concentrate and sleep.<g> I do understand that the lower blood pressure /higher plasma osmalility can stimulate ADH..but there has to be a limit to how high one can make one's plasma osmalality.
I'll go over your posts in more detail and attempt some replies after the exams.Thanks for helping, really appreciated,you throw up some interesting ideas,
Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 29, 2004, at 7:12:25
In reply to Re: Help needed with cholinergic drug reactions? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 27, 2004, at 22:34:20
Hi Jan, good luck with your studying - just came across this abstract that seemed to tie in a lot of the things you are talking about. Superoxide excess seems to be a common thread in inhibiting the vasodilation and sodium balance in the kidney. Nitric oxide turns from a vasodilator to a vasoconstrictor when it combines with superoxide to form peroxynitrite - you didn't say what you had at the dentist, but if it was nitrous oxide, it might have been able to form peroxynitrite too - nitrites in bacon can definitely produce peroxynitrite.
Just found out that sulfites can trigger NADPH oxidase, and produce superoxide - seems to fit the pattern quite well! NADPH is needed for glutathione formation (nitric oxide, dopa, serotonin, steroid hormone synthesis, noradrenaline and folate activation!), so to lose too much is disasterous.
If you think this relates to you, arginine might be beneficial, but healing the endothelium cells to allow proper vasodilation to occur (not forgetting dealing with superoxide). I've used Venocap by Thorne research to help my endothelial cells - it contains, witch hazel, horse chestnut, butchers broom, gotu cola, grape seed extract. Lar gave me a link to an article by Dr Pall on peroxynitrite on a recent thread.
Nitric oxide, oxidative stress, and progression of chronic renal failure.
Modlinger PS, Wilcox CS, Aslam S.
Division of Nephrology and Hypertension, Georgetown University Medical Center, Washington, DC 20007, USA.
Cellular injury or organ dysfunction from oxidative stress occurs when reactive oxygen species (ROS) accumulate in excess of the host defense mechanisms. The deleterious effect of ROS occurs from 2 principal actions. First, ROS can inactivate mitochondrial enzymes, damage DNA, or lead to apoptosis or cellular hypertrophy. Second, nitric oxide (NO), which is a principal endothelial-derived relaxing factor, reacts with superoxide anion (O2-) to yield peroxynitrite (ONOO-), which is a powerful oxidant and nitrosating agent. The inactivation of NO by O2- creates NO deficiency. Oxidative stress can promote the production of vasoconstrictor molecules and primary salt retention by the kidney. Several hypertensive animal models showed increased activity of nicotine adenine dinucleotide phosphate (NADPH) oxidase, which is the chief source of O2- in the vessel wall and kidneys. NO regulates renal blood flow, tubuloglomerular feedback (TGF), and pressure natriuresis. Animal models of NO deficiency develop hypertension, proteinuria, and glomerulosclerosis. Evidence is presented that chronic renal failure (CRF) is a state of NO deficiency secondary to decreased kidney NO production and/or increased bioinactivation of NO by O2-. Patients with CRF show decreased endothelium-dependent vasodilatation to acetylcholine, have increased markers of oxidative stress, and diminished antioxidant activity. Therapy for oxidative stress has focused on antioxidants and agents that modify the renin-angiotensin system. The effects of such treatments are more compelling in animal models than in human studies.
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