![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 63 to 87 of 87. Go back in thread:
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:47:28
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
The Ring of Fire is a name given to describe the condition of a person who has at least three of the ADD subtypes.
: o cool ! ;-)
may be oppositional or aggressive
oppositional yes/no (depends on situation ...)
aggressive yes/no (depends on definition ...)
is often very hyper or hyperverbal
very hyper no, hyperverbal yes ===> YES
is easily distracted or has too many thoughts.
Sometimes the first and the other times the second
===> YESHe/she may experience moodiness
YES
cyclic behavioral changes
yes/no (don't know how cyclic they are)
or hypersensitivity to light, sound, taste or touch.
NO
>>> Usually the over-active Cingulate and Temporal Lobe, and one or two of the Limbic or pre-frontal types are involved.
Which are the pre-frontal types ?
I think inattentive is a big yes for me. Is it compatible with RoF ?
(Ring of fire is a very cool name ! Anyway, I ordered some Amen's book so, I'll have something to do in the next weeks ;-)
Posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 13:15:29
In reply to ring of fire : ) , posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:47:28
> The Ring of Fire is a name given to describe the condition of a person who has at least three of the ADD subtypes.
>
> : o cool ! ;-)
>
> may be oppositional or aggressive
>
> oppositional yes/no (depends on situation ...)
>
> aggressive yes/no (depends on definition ...)
>
> is often very hyper or hyperverbal
>
> very hyper no, hyperverbal yes ===> YES
>
> is easily distracted or has too many thoughts.
>
> Sometimes the first and the other times the second
> ===> YES
>
> He/she may experience moodiness
>
> YES
>
> cyclic behavioral changes
>
> yes/no (don't know how cyclic they are)
>
> or hypersensitivity to light, sound, taste or touch.
>
> NO
>
> >>> Usually the over-active Cingulate and Temporal Lobe, and one or two of the Limbic or pre-frontal types are involved.
>
> Which are the pre-frontal types ?Classic ADHD and Inattentive-type ADD. Basically, the pre-frontal cortex is a problem whenever trying to concentrate only makes the ability to concentrate worse.
> I think inattentive is a big yes for me. Is it compatible with RoF ?
Yes, I think so.
> (Ring of fire is a very cool name ! Anyway, I ordered some Amen's book so, I'll have something to do in the next weeks ;-)
In the meantime you can take questionaires on his websites and maybe even join the forum he has over there.
Maybe you could ask around with your university contacts and see if any university clinic in Italy has SPECT, fMRI, or PET. Perhaps some researcher might be interested in seeing your mixed responses (scan non-medicated, scan on-Anafranil, etc.).
Posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 13:30:58
In reply to ring of fire : ) , posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:47:28
Let me again recommend that you join this board as well...
http://www.amenclinic.com/treenic/default.asp
You might get a response from a physician assistant (PA) of Dr. Amen's, Angela, who is a co-moderator of their boards. Like this one...
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 13:43:37
In reply to Re: ring of fire : ) » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 22, 2003, at 13:30:58
Thanks for all the info. I didn't know about the forums on Ameclinic.com. I'll let you know what happens. Bye !
Posted by DSCH on November 24, 2003, at 0:35:08
In reply to So far so good... it's smoother acting I think :-) (nm), posted by DSCH on October 30, 2003, at 17:49:57
Just thought the TMG-following folks should know that I am definately having a decline in my mood and energy and motivation which doesn't manifest as a fog, clutter, or dirtiness in my faculties (which is what I sense as my number one indicator of things going well or not). I have had some trouble keeping to a regular eating/supplement and sleep schedule of late, so I think some inadequacy in the regimen is getting amplified as the regimen is disrupted.
I might try adding tyrosine back in the morning and 5-HTP at night.
Ideas?
Posted by tealady on November 24, 2003, at 5:48:58
In reply to Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on November 24, 2003, at 0:35:08
The decline wouldn't have started when you upped the selenium?
Jan
Posted by JLx on November 24, 2003, at 8:30:09
In reply to Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on November 24, 2003, at 0:35:08
> Just thought the TMG-following folks should know that I am definately having a decline in my mood and energy and motivation which doesn't manifest as a fog, clutter, or dirtiness in my faculties (which is what I sense as my number one indicator of things going well or not). I have had some trouble keeping to a regular eating/supplement and sleep schedule of late, so I think some inadequacy in the regimen is getting amplified as the regimen is disrupted.
>
> I might try adding tyrosine back in the morning and 5-HTP at night.
>
> Ideas?I already popped off with some ideas here, http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031122/msgs/282451.html. The downswing coincided with the layoff, right? Which is stressful presumably, so reading Larry's comment again,
"Stress blocks the normal recycling of homocysteine to methionine. Homocysteine accumulates while SAMe is depleted. You could take SAMe, but that doesn't fix the homocysteine problem. In fact, it makes it worse. Betaine induces an enzyme (the concentration of the enzyme increases if betaine is detected) called betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase. So, that will recycle homocysteine."
I wonder if it would be helpful to take more TMG?Or other anti-homocysteine factors?
In general, do you know what seems to work for you for stress? I always take more magnesium, for instance, and take a look at what else I may be getting too much of (for me, calcium is a culprit).
But also it sounds like a good idea to try tyrosine and/or 5-HTP again. I took 1000 mg of tyrosine yesterday and less TMG and felt better.
Posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:36:53
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 24, 2003, at 8:30:09
I've also been naughty and drinking quite a bit of margarita mix recently. I'm sure that wasn't helping me out at all. Anyway, it's gone now and I can't afford to buy more of it! :-)
Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
Posted by JLx on November 26, 2003, at 18:23:16
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on November 25, 2003, at 21:36:53
> Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
I've been taking gingko for about 2 months now. I don't notice any difference but perhaps it's part of the "I feel better" package in some way. I've also been taking methylcobalamin for about 6 weeks too.
Are you still taking TMG -- more, or less than before?
Posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 20:56:41
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » DSCH, posted by tealady on November 24, 2003, at 5:48:58
> The decline wouldn't have started when you upped the selenium?
> JanNo... I didn't raise the multi (my Se source) to tid at that time.
Posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:26:33
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 26, 2003, at 18:23:16
> > Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
>
> I've been taking gingko for about 2 months now. I don't notice any difference but perhaps it's part of the "I feel better" package in some way. I've also been taking methylcobalamin for about 6 weeks too.
>
> Are you still taking TMG -- more, or less than before?It's been varying somewhat from day-to-day as I have not been eating to a very regular schedule (yes, I know, bad). 4000-6000 mg/day. My head is rather clear. I've felt carb cravings, especially in the evenings.
As my patience is limited at this point, I am going to "throw the kitchen sink" at myself and see where I stand a month from now. I'm going to sit down and write up a regimen based on my readings and try as much as possible to stick to it. Economy and fine tuning can come later.
Hopefully I will have job next week and some money coming in again.
Posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 7:49:05
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 27, 2003, at 21:26:33
> > > Tonight I got some new stuff to try out over the coming weeks: gingko, methylcobalamin, Idebenone, and phosphatidyl serine. I returned the Piracetam as it wasn't doing anything I could notice (that's what allowed me to get the Idebenone and PS, funds are getting tight again). :-/
> >
> > I've been taking gingko for about 2 months now. I don't notice any difference but perhaps it's part of the "I feel better" package in some way. I've also been taking methylcobalamin for about 6 weeks too.
> >
> > Are you still taking TMG -- more, or less than before?
>
> It's been varying somewhat from day-to-day as I have not been eating to a very regular schedule (yes, I know, bad). 4000-6000 mg/day. My head is rather clear. I've felt carb cravings, especially in the evenings.I have too! But thought it was just me.
> As my patience is limited at this point, I am going to "throw the kitchen sink" at myself and see where I stand a month from now. I'm going to sit down and write up a regimen based on my readings and try as much as possible to stick to it. Economy and fine tuning can come later.
> Hopefully I will have job next week and some money coming in again.Sounds like a plan. :)
Posted by Francesco on November 30, 2003, at 18:17:23
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
I'm reading Healing the Brain of our friend, Dr. Amen. Now that I know a little more I can say that your deductions seem to me completely right.
> Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
That's how I felt on Anafranil (overfocus into dreamland).
> Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
That's what is likely to happen. I'm not that 'temporal' without meds but they 'appear' when I take serotoninergic. Is it possibile that serotoninergic create it ? I don't think so. What do you think about it ?
> If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.What is meant by Omega-3 ? epa/dha or something else ?
A serotoninergic + GABA (or an anticonvulsivant) seems be a good first step. But would this fix also my prefrontal cortex problems ? (I mean procratination and all the other noradrenergic issue) ... If it ain't so should I also add some stimulant med or suplement ?
Anyway it seems that I'm a step from 'truth' about my problems with your very careful and kind help. Sorry for this 'sleepy' post but I had to take a benzo this evening because the worsening of my temporal issue on triptophan made it necessary : / Hope to substitute benzo with something more appropriate as far as possibile.
I'll keep you informed, let me know how is going on with you.
Posted by Francesco on November 30, 2003, at 18:17:25
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
I'm reading Healing the Brain of our friend, Dr. Amen. Now that I know a little more I can say that your deductions seem to me completely right.
> Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
That's how I felt on Anafranil (overfocus into dreamland).
> Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
That's what is likely to happen. I'm not that 'temporal' without meds but they 'appear' when I take serotoninergic. Is it possibile that serotoninergic create it ? I don't think so. What do you think about it ?
> If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.What is meant by Omega-3 ? epa/dha or something else ?
A serotoninergic + GABA (or an anticonvulsivant) seems be a good first step. But would this fix also my prefrontal cortex problems ? (I mean procratination and all the other noradrenergic issue) ... If it ain't so should I also add some stimulant med or suplement ?
Anyway it seems that I'm a step from 'truth' about my problems with your very careful and kind help. Sorry for this 'sleepy' post but I had to take a benzo this evening because the worsening of my temporal issue on triptophan made it necessary : / Hope to substitute benzo with something more appropriate as far as possibile.
I'll keep you informed, let me know how is going on with you.
Posted by DSCH on December 4, 2003, at 21:57:57
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline, posted by JLx on November 28, 2003, at 7:49:05
Looks like I will be bringing either DLPA or tyrosine back. I have fallen away from my low carb diet and I feel something like where I was back in July coming back on me. Time to go back to restricting that again.
Posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 4:14:18
In reply to Re: Mood/energy decline, posted by DSCH on December 4, 2003, at 21:57:57
> Looks like I will be bringing either DLPA or tyrosine back. I have fallen away from my low carb diet and I feel something like where I was back in July coming back on me. Time to go back to restricting that again.
Pardon me whilst I think and conjecture out loud.
What symptoms are remaining that TMG, Mg, multivitamins, phosphatidyls, grape seed extract, gingko, and omega-3 FAs have not covered?
Carbohydrate senstivity. Reduced ability to handle stress. Non-refreshing sleep. Depressed mood (thus increasing temptation of carbohydrates). The first three are somewhat charactersitic of impaired adrenal function. I think back to the improvement I saw while I was drinking lots of licorice root tea with regards to waking up, 4-6 AM, and feeling ready to rise and get busy. The picture is complicated by my use of pemoline during the beginning of this period. But it didn't START with pemoline, but only after I started on B-vitamins and DLPA. And that's when I "uncovered" sensitivity to carbohydrates! Curious. I think the carb senstivity went away to an extent with the licorice.
It's a bit shaky, but I think I have something of a "lead" here.
Posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 5:58:33
In reply to HPA Axis redux, posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 4:14:18
Here's what I've come up with today. Comments welcome. (Note... doses on the high side, I am a bigger fellow... 6'2"/240#)
I think I am in the methylation maintenance zone now (I no longer notice much dose dependancy at all with TMG), and am back to needing assistance with the catecholamines (hence the tyrosine and 5-HTP) and cortisol (hence the licorice tea).
Before Breakfast
1 x 1 mg methylcobalamin
2 x 1000mg L-tyrosine
1 x large mug of licorice root tea (3 Tsp. root)With Breakfast
1 x Solaray
1 x 1000mg trimethylglycine
1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
2 x fish oil capsules (180 mg EPA, 120 mg DHA, 23 mg GLA)Before Lunch
2 x 1000mg L-tyrosine
With Lunch
1 x Solaray
1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
2 x Fish Oil capsulesWith Dinner
1 x Solaray
1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
2 x Fish Oil capsules
3 x 100 mg 5-HTPBefore Bedtime
3 x 1300 mg magnesium malate (200 mg Mg)
Posted by JLx on December 26, 2003, at 17:33:05
In reply to Latest supplement plan, posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 5:58:33
How are you doing on all this?
I took a sudden and severe nose dive a few weeks past...hence the long gap in posting. I wasn't doing anything differently and thought I was sailing along fairly well...then, bam, like I hit an invisible brick wall. A common experience but one I had hoped wouldn't happen again on my latest regimen. Very frustrating. BUT at least it didn't last TOO long and now I am feeling pretty good again, albeit more stressed from the lack of productivity of those "lost" weeks. :(
I'm not noticing much dose dependency with the TMG now either, but I continue to take it, just a little less than before.
One thing I concluded about my downturn, oddly enough for me since I'm always running on about magnesium, is that I don't think I was taking enough! I was probably only taking about 5-600 mg a day before. When I deligently started taking at least 900 mg, I felt very much better. I'm taking magnesium malate 300 mg 3 times a day between meels and so far mg malate has never caused diarrhea in me like the mg citrate and glycinate do.
I hope you are feeling better and that you found a new job and had at least an "ok" Christmas. :)
JL
> Here's what I've come up with today. Comments welcome. (Note... doses on the high side, I am a bigger fellow... 6'2"/240#)
>
> I think I am in the methylation maintenance zone now (I no longer notice much dose dependancy at all with TMG), and am back to needing assistance with the catecholamines (hence the tyrosine and 5-HTP) and cortisol (hence the licorice tea).
>
> Before Breakfast
>
> 1 x 1 mg methylcobalamin
> 2 x 1000mg L-tyrosine
> 1 x large mug of licorice root tea (3 Tsp. root)
>
> With Breakfast
>
> 1 x Solaray
> 1 x 1000mg trimethylglycine
> 1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
> 2 x fish oil capsules (180 mg EPA, 120 mg DHA, 23 mg GLA)
>
> Before Lunch
>
> 2 x 1000mg L-tyrosine
>
> With Lunch
>
> 1 x Solaray
> 1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
> 2 x Fish Oil capsules
>
> With Dinner
>
> 1 x Solaray
> 1 x 100 mg grape seed extract
> 2 x Fish Oil capsules
> 3 x 100 mg 5-HTP
>
> Before Bedtime
>
> 3 x 1300 mg magnesium malate (200 mg Mg)
Posted by DSCH on December 28, 2003, at 16:34:07
In reply to Re: Latest supplement plan » DSCH, posted by JLx on December 26, 2003, at 17:33:05
> How are you doing on all this?
Funny you should ask. ;-)
I never went very far with that plan, indeed I had second thoughts on a number of things about hours after posting that.
Right now I am wondering if I preemptorily quit my prescription med and confused cause and effect with regards to the supplements. So right now I am back with my prescription and am waiting to see if it "kicks on" suddenly after several weeks like it did the first time.
Posted by JLx on December 28, 2003, at 18:55:11
In reply to Re: Latest supplement plan » JLx, posted by DSCH on December 28, 2003, at 16:34:07
> > How are you doing on all this?
>
> Funny you should ask. ;-)
>
> I never went very far with that plan, indeed I had second thoughts on a number of things about hours after posting that.
>
> Right now I am wondering if I preemptorily quit my prescription med and confused cause and effect with regards to the supplements. So right now I am back with my prescription and am waiting to see if it "kicks on" suddenly after several weeks like it did the first time.Hmm...have you discontinued all the natural stuff then? What med are you taking? My own experience with the SSRIs is that that sudden "kick on" experience was only the FIRST time, not the retread.
I've just added MSM and glucosamine to my regiment. "Never say die", is my motto. <g> Mostly they are for aches and pains, but the more I read about MSM the more I wondered if it might help with depression as it seems to be like magnesium or methylation -- involved in all sorts of bodily functions. I won't know for a couple weeks if it's going to help.
Posted by DSCH on December 28, 2003, at 21:50:51
In reply to Re: Latest supplement plan » DSCH, posted by JLx on December 28, 2003, at 18:55:11
> Hmm...have you discontinued all the natural stuff then? What med are you taking? My own experience with the SSRIs is that that sudden "kick on" experience was only the FIRST time, not the retread.
I was taking pemoline, a stimulant, and I stopped taking it thinking it was making me too scatterbrained, not because it stopped working. I probably shpuld have stuck to it longer to see if it would go away.
I think a repeat performace is more likely than for a SSRI that pooped-out, but there are no guarantees, eh?
I still take vitamins, especially the B's, and grape seed extract, for the moment. I have slacked off recently, but I also take DLPA. Given that pemoline can be hard on the liver I am interested in alpha lipoic acid and also milk thistle.
Last time I started taking B vitamins and DLPA and thought that was what kicked the pemoline on (2 days after I started), but now I am not so sure that was really the case.
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2003, at 8:50:32
In reply to Latest supplement plan, posted by DSCH on December 5, 2003, at 5:58:33
> Here's what I've come up with today.
<snip>
How much does this cost you per day?
Where do you buy it?
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by DSCH on December 29, 2003, at 12:28:36
In reply to Re: Latest supplement plan » DSCH, posted by SLS on December 29, 2003, at 8:50:32
> How much does this cost you per day?
Well, I was meaning to sit down and calculate that when I felt I was getting close to an answer.
I have largely abandoned supplements for the moment as I had to concede there was a general trend towards increasing insensitivity to them over the past several months.
> Where do you buy it?
The best prices in my area were generally to be found at Whole Foods and Vitamin Shoppe. I was leary of mail ordering stuff over the internet (funny... I'll do that for books!). Trader Joe's can have some decent deals for smaller quantities, which, while not the best buy from a mg/$ standpoint are nice for giving something a trial.
Posted by SLS on December 29, 2003, at 13:10:16
In reply to Re: Latest supplement plan » SLS, posted by DSCH on December 29, 2003, at 12:28:36
> > How much does this cost you per day?
>
> Well, I was meaning to sit down and calculate that when I felt I was getting close to an answer.
>
> I have largely abandoned supplements for the moment as I had to concede there was a general trend towards increasing insensitivity to them over the past several months.
>
> > Where do you buy it?
>
> The best prices in my area were generally to be found at Whole Foods and Vitamin Shoppe. I was leary of mail ordering stuff over the internet (funny... I'll do that for books!). Trader Joe's can have some decent deals for smaller quantities, which, while not the best buy from a mg/$ standpoint are nice for giving something a trial.
Thanks for the info. I guess I'll try Vitamin Shoppe. There's one not to far from me. I am looking for a source of inositol that isn't too inconvenient to dose at 8-12 grams per day. Taking 15 capsules a day is a bit much.I'm sorry that your supplement regime has not adequately remedied your condition. I wish you luck with your meds. I'm sure everything will turn out OK.
- Scott
Posted by andie1970 on January 7, 2004, at 12:24:41
In reply to Re: Does anyone have their temper flare up on TMG?, posted by Ron Jones on October 24, 2003, at 22:17:52
Ron, that is exactly what happened for me. I thought it was my imagination after I started taking the SAMe. It was so much like when I took wellbutrin. So I can't take SAMe and was so hopeful that it would lift my depression! the 5-htp on its own wasn't enough, st. john's wort didn't seem to make a difference, and flax oil? nothing. I need some kind of herbal cocktail maybe? i thought maybe it was that my dopamine was too low, but since that didn't work, i'm at a loss. I really need something. i am at one of the lowest, most depressed points in my life.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.