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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 21, 2003, at 14:47:51
Dinah said:
> No, I haven't. But I will. Magnesium supplements sound like a low risk alternative to the barbiturates, corticosteroids, and anti-cholinergics I was given yesterday.Rather than an alternative, you may want to consider magnesium as an augmentative. It might be enough to start tipping your health balance back the right way.
> Do I need to take anything with it for it to work or be absorbed or anything?
>And, rianny asked:
> Thx a lot for this info. Maybe I should try taking Magnesium, but do you know which form of Magnesium it's talking about?Magnesium does work best if you're not already deficient in vitamin D (not really a vitamin....it's a steroid hormone). So, a D supplement might be a good idea.
Any magnesium salt will do, except magesium oxide. Stay away from that, as it's poorly absorbed.
If the dose of magnesium salts you try causes diarrhea, you need to back down until you find a dose that's tolerated. Over time, you can increase the dose again, gradually.
It may seem bizarre, but there is no medical test for magnesium deficiency that is definitive. The only real test of magnesium deficiency is called magnesium loading. They give you magnesium, and if your symptoms remit, then it is reasonable that they were due to magnesium deficiency. It's a functional definition, but it's all we have.
You might want to take a look at:
http://www.mgwater.com/
http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html#synapses
http://www.home.eznet.net/~webtent/mg.htmlI'm sure you're both going to have more questions, so please, fire away.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on October 21, 2003, at 16:33:42
In reply to magnesium...Dinah, rianny, posted by Larry Hoover on October 21, 2003, at 14:47:51
Nope. No more questions. But thank you. I'll go look for a supplement (and check my D intake) and give it a whirl (although yet more tummy troubles doesn't sound appealing).
I really hate resorting to the big guns on the migraine especially. I'm hoping the clinic will have something short of Butalbital, and if Magnesium helps me stick to the OTC drugs I'll be happy. (Perhaps you've noticed that I'm suspicious of medications.)
Posted by rianny on October 21, 2003, at 20:42:52
In reply to Re: magnesium...Dinah, rianny ?Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2003, at 16:33:42
I just took Mag-Cal supplement last night before I go to sleep. Today...I felt sooooo different. I kind of felt more calm and....well really hard to explain. Also, I was suffering from dry eye syndrome and skin peeling in mouth. The skin peeling is almost completely gone, and dry eye symtoms are definitely lessened. I also started to take fish oil since last night. So, I really don't know if it's fish oil or magnesium.
You also mentioned about Vitamin D. Could all-in-one vitamin/mineral supplement just be helpful to consume magnesium and Vitamin D?
I never had this much difference with any other supplement (I've tried flaxed seed oil, inositol, niacin, and so on...) I know it is not placebo effect because physical symptoms are also improved. It's amazing...I just took it once. Maybe today's just a lucky day. I'll keep trying to take Cal-Mag supplement and post whatever new happens. Perhaps my body lacks magnesium....???
Posted by Penny on October 22, 2003, at 8:34:03
In reply to magnesium...Dinah, rianny, posted by Larry Hoover on October 21, 2003, at 14:47:51
Lar,
How much magnesium should one be taking?
P
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 15:17:04
In reply to Re: magnesium...Dinah, rianny » Larry Hoover, posted by Dinah on October 21, 2003, at 16:33:42
> Nope. No more questions. But thank you. I'll go look for a supplement (and check my D intake) and give it a whirl (although yet more tummy troubles doesn't sound appealing).
Bizarrely, magnesium deficiency promotes magnesium deficiency, in a vicious circle. Diarrhea is less likely if your magnesium uptake is good, but magnesium uptake is poor if you're already magnesium deficient.
Magnesium ions are hygroscopic, which means they draw water to themselves. This is believed to be why they lead to diarrhea, if they remain in the gut. The problem is that magnesium can actually be drawn into the gut along with water, leading to net magnesium loss, if you're not careful. Please, don't let one instance of diarrhea cause you to turn away from this idea. It can take a while to get your magnesium levels up again.
In your case, I was very conscious of the magnesium link in each of your stated disorders. I don't think it's a coincidence.
> I really hate resorting to the big guns on the migraine especially. I'm hoping the clinic will have something short of Butalbital, and if Magnesium helps me stick to the OTC drugs I'll be happy. (Perhaps you've noticed that I'm suspicious of medications.)
Meds have their place, but they ought not to be first-line treatment, IMHO. Especially since there are food/nutrient factors to consider.
I know I'm biased.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 15:28:16
In reply to Re: magnesium...Dinah, rianny ?Larry Hoover , posted by rianny on October 21, 2003, at 20:42:52
> I just took Mag-Cal supplement last night before I go to sleep. Today...I felt sooooo different. I kind of felt more calm and....well really hard to explain. Also, I was suffering from dry eye syndrome and skin peeling in mouth. The skin peeling is almost completely gone, and dry eye symtoms are definitely lessened. I also started to take fish oil since last night. So, I really don't know if it's fish oil or magnesium.
Calmness is associated with magnesium. It potentiates GABA receptors all by itself. Fish oil is associated with healing of dry skin, but I'm surprised it happened quickly like that.
In any case, I hope you're encouraged to continue using these supps. ;-)
> You also mentioned about Vitamin D. Could all-in-one vitamin/mineral supplement just be helpful to consume magnesium and Vitamin D?
You need far more magnesium than is available in any multi I've ever seen. A ballpark intake target would be 500-800 mg/day elemental magnesium. But don't start at that dose. Start at 200 or 300 mg/day, and work up by hundreds, if possible. Or split the dose over the course of the day, so there is a high spike of concentration in the gut.
Re: vitamin D, you should be shooting for about 400 IU/day, but not exceeding 2,000 IU/day.
> I never had this much difference with any other supplement (I've tried flaxed seed oil, inositol, niacin, and so on...) I know it is not placebo effect because physical symptoms are also improved. It's amazing...I just took it once. Maybe today's just a lucky day. I'll keep trying to take Cal-Mag supplement and post whatever new happens. Perhaps my body lacks magnesium....???Magnesium deficiency is the second most common deficiency in the United States, next to zinc.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 15:28:47
In reply to Re: How much magnesium? » Larry Hoover, posted by Penny on October 22, 2003, at 8:34:03
> Lar,
>
> How much magnesium should one be taking?
>
> PSee the message right above this one.
Lar
Posted by john1022 on October 22, 2003, at 16:02:59
In reply to Re: How much magnesium? » Penny, posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 15:28:47
First of all Larry, thank you so much for what you bring to this board as far as information.
I had been taking Magnesium Oxide, but stopped because of you mentioning it to not be able to be processed as easily.
I bought another Magnesium supplement today called Solaray Magnesium Asporotate (each pill containing 400 mgs of Mag Asperate, Mag Citrate and Mag Orotate)
I took two this afternoon (800 mgs) had some pretty severe diarehha. I just read your post and you mentioned that if this happens, to back down on the Mag because it could cause more of a Magnesium defiency.
My question is this: Should I be taking a Magnesium supplement that contains all 3 of the different types of Magnesium (Aspartate, Citrate and Orotate)?
Or should I look for a Magnesium supplement that just contains one of these types of Magnesium to build up my Magnesium levels without being counterproductive because of the diarehha problem?
Or should I just stick with this product at a lower dose until I can tolerate it without having diarehha?
Would cutting down to only 200 mgs tomorrow of this product sound like a good idea or should I switch to something else?
You advise is extremely appreciated. Thanks
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 17:09:16
In reply to Re: Question on Magnesium Larry..., posted by john1022 on October 22, 2003, at 16:02:59
> First of all Larry, thank you so much for what you bring to this board as far as information.
My pleasure.
> I had been taking Magnesium Oxide, but stopped because of you mentioning it to not be able to be processed as easily.
Magnesium oxide is virtually insoluble, even in acid, because it's not a salt. It's a covalent compound.
> I bought another Magnesium supplement today called Solaray Magnesium Asporotate (each pill containing 400 mgs of Mag Asperate, Mag Citrate and Mag Orotate)Another way of looking at this is that supplement contains magnesium, aspartic acid, citric acid, and orotic acid. So, there are really four chemicals in it that may affect you.
> I took two this afternoon (800 mgs) had some pretty severe diarehha. I just read your post and you mentioned that if this happens, to back down on the Mag because it could cause more of a Magnesium defiency.I've also heard some people say that mag citrate is rough on them, rougher than other salts, anyway. Yes, you have to back down on the dose. Also, don't take it on an empty stomach (you say afternoon, and that suggests between meals). You want food and drink to dilute this stuff. Less likely to have adverse effects if diluted.
> My question is this: Should I be taking a Magnesium supplement that contains all 3 of the different types of Magnesium (Aspartate, Citrate and Orotate)?I'd have to look at the individual effects of the aspartate, citrate, and orotate to really answer that. I think it should be fine, if you get the dose right. 800 is a lot for a starter dose. Even 400 might be too much.
> Or should I look for a Magnesium supplement that just contains one of these types of Magnesium to build up my Magnesium levels without being counterproductive because of the diarehha problem?The diarrhea is more about the total amount of magnesium than it is about what other stuff is in there. Just lower the dose. If 400 mg gives you the runs, you'll definitely have to try a different product. Your tolerance to magnesium can increase over time. But diarrhea should be minimized, along the way.
> Or should I just stick with this product at a lower dose until I can tolerate it without having diarehha?Can you cut the pills? Dose is definitely what you need to manage. I doubt it's the aspartate, etc.
> Would cutting down to only 200 mgs tomorrow of this product sound like a good idea or should I switch to something else?I'd try 400.
> You advise is extremely appreciated. ThanksWelcome.
Lar
Posted by rianny on October 22, 2003, at 17:15:50
In reply to Re: magnesium...Dinah, rianny ?Larry Hoover ?rianny, posted by Larry Hoover on October 22, 2003, at 15:28:16
Thank you very much for info.
I've more questions.
I want to start on all-in-one vitamin/mineral supplement. You said magnesium in such products might not be enough. Which additional vitamin/mineral do you recommend me to take with multi-vita/mineral supplement? Just so you know, I'm 21 years old male. I really wonder if ppl with such low age need extra supplement. Also, I'm taking Fish Oil.It would also be nice if you can recommend me multi-vita/mineral product that you think is good for me. I should not take Folic acid tho because it worsens my OCD, as I read from somewhere.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 23, 2003, at 9:35:30
In reply to Re: magnesium...Dinah, rianny ?Larry Hoover, posted by rianny on October 22, 2003, at 17:15:50
> Thank you very much for info.
>
> I've more questions.
> I want to start on all-in-one vitamin/mineral supplement. You said magnesium in such products might not be enough.Magnesium salts are bulky. There just isn't enough space in a multi-type tablet/capsule to give you enough magnesium, or calcium, for that matter.
> Which additional vitamin/mineral do you recommend me to take with multi-vita/mineral supplement?
Add in a B-complex, and extra B-12, fer sure. I'd also suggest selenium, 200 mcg/day, and zinc, 20-40 mg/day.
> Just so you know, I'm 21 years old male. I really wonder if ppl with such low age need extra supplement.
I'm going to challenge your thinking, the assumption that your diet meets your needs.
Let's take a look at zinc. Here's a reference table for "adequate" zinc intake:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/5/1367S/T4
If you look at your gender and age group, you'll see that roughly 3/4 of men of your age get "adequate" zinc. I'm now going to tell you why that amount is *not* adequate, using the definitions of RDA and Adequate Intake, all by themselves.
RDA, the Recommended Daily Allowance, is an average intake of a nutrient that is defined to be that amount which prevents overt deficiency symptoms in 97.5% of the normal healthy population for particular age and gender groups. So, by definition, that means that the RDA will still allow 1 out of every 40 healthy normal people to exhibit *overt* deficiency symptoms. I emphasize overt, because it means obvious. There may be other subtle effects. And what about people who are not normal and healthy?
Now, let's move on to Adequate Intake. It's defined as "total zinc intake at or above 77% of the 1989 RDA age/sex-specific value", in footnote 1 of that table. So, they're saying that 3/4 of the amount that permits overt deficiency symptoms to occur in healthy normal people is an adequate intake. And, even still, only 3/4 of your age/gender group makes the cut, even when they "lower the bar".
Here's an article about zinc deficiency:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/5/1344SCheck this one:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content-nw/full/131/8/2177/T5
Here's a table that shows percentage of people with intakes of key nutrients (including magnesium), of less that 50% of the RDA. And, keep in mind what the RDA really means, when you look at the data. It's still an amount that lets normal healthy people exhibit deficiency symptoms.http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/4/1232/T3
You might want to read the whole article, for that last table.
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/4/1232
> Also, I'm taking Fish Oil.
Excellent. You can't OD on fish oil. The more the better, IMHO.
> It would also be nice if you can recommend me multi-vita/mineral product that you think is good for me. I should not take Folic acid tho because it worsens my OCD, as I read from somewhere.
I'm a cheapskate. I buy cheap. My recommendations might not suit you.
Best,
Lar
Posted by rianny on October 24, 2003, at 1:36:21
In reply to Re: RDA is a bogus concept ?rianny, posted by Larry Hoover on October 23, 2003, at 9:35:30
>Add in a B-complex, and extra B-12, fer sure. I'd also suggest selenium, 200 mcg/day, and zinc, 20-40 mg/day.
Ok, I'll do what you suggest, but don't I need to add Cal-Mag to those? Also, is there any side effect if I take too much minerals, such as Magnesium and Selenium, oh also Fish oil?
Now, it's been 3 days since I started taking Fish oil and Cal-Mag supplement....yes I still feel different, but not that great. Last night, I wasn't able to sleep so well. I was lying down on bed, closing eyes, but was awake. All unnecesary thoughts made me suffer. I'm not sure if it was because of the supplements I'm taking. Probably it was because of Luvox....I have been taking Luvox, 25mg, and I just decided to take it in the evening, but I think I better quit that SSRI to test if supplements can help me.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 25, 2003, at 8:16:18
In reply to Re: RDA is a bogus concept ?Larry Hoover , posted by rianny on October 24, 2003, at 1:36:21
> >Add in a B-complex, and extra B-12, fer sure. I'd also suggest selenium, 200 mcg/day, and zinc, 20-40 mg/day.
>
> Ok, I'll do what you suggest, but don't I need to add Cal-Mag to those?Weren't you already using some? I get confused about who I'm advising some times.
Yes, you need calcium and magnesium.
> Also, is there any side effect if I take too much minerals, such as Magnesium
Unlikely, unless you a parathyroid gland disorder, or problems with your kidneys.
In other words, it's really hard to overdose on magnesium. Maybe impossible, because of the diarrhea thingie.
> and Selenium,
Too much selenium is toxic. That's called selenosis. The generally accepted LOAEL (lowest observeable adverse effects level) is about 850 micrograms a day. The safe Upper Limit is around 600 micrograms a day (depends on who is setting the limit, just what it is exactly). I'm recommending a very safe level of 200 micrograms per day, which would only be a problem if you were obtaining your drinking water from an untested well with high selenium content in the groundwater.
> oh also Fish oil?
No upper limit. Within reason.
> Now, it's been 3 days since I started taking Fish oil and Cal-Mag supplement....yes I still feel different, but not that great. Last night, I wasn't able to sleep so well. I was lying down on bed, closing eyes, but was awake. All unnecesary thoughts made me suffer. I'm not sure if it was because of the supplements I'm taking. Probably it was because of Luvox....I have been taking Luvox, 25mg, and I just decided to take it in the evening, but I think I better quit that SSRI to test if supplements can help me.
Don't drop the Luvox. I wouldn't do that. Not if you're at risk of depression.
Supps may do the job, but first you have to establish a stable mood. Stable in all ways.
B-vitamins can keep you awake. Take them in the morning. Fish oil does affect some people's sleep. It's unfortunate, but it happens. When that does happen, I suggest that people turn to fish itself. It seems to have less impact on sleep. Canned sardines or salmon are excellent sources of fish oils, and also contain readily absorbable calcium, are high in magnesium, contain good amounts of selenium, and also contain DMAE. Fish is good brain food.
Cal-mag at night does help many people sleep. Add in extra mag for a stronger effect.
Lar
Posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 18:27:48
In reply to Re: magnesium...Dinah, rianny ?Larry Hoover , posted by rianny on October 21, 2003, at 20:42:52
I had that same effect with dry skin. Without even realizing it was a habit, I used to wake up and scratch the skin off my forehead but after taking magnesium for a day or two, I noticed I wasn't able to.
Magnesium supplemention has really changed my body and brain. It is preventative of suicidal ideation for one thing for me.
I hope you have continued good luck with it too. :)
> I just took Mag-Cal supplement last night before I go to sleep. Today...I felt sooooo different. I kind of felt more calm and....well really hard to explain. Also, I was suffering from dry eye syndrome and skin peeling in mouth. The skin peeling is almost completely gone, and dry eye symtoms are definitely lessened. I also started to take fish oil since last night. So, I really don't know if it's fish oil or magnesium.
>
> You also mentioned about Vitamin D. Could all-in-one vitamin/mineral supplement just be helpful to consume magnesium and Vitamin D?
>
> I never had this much difference with any other supplement (I've tried flaxed seed oil, inositol, niacin, and so on...) I know it is not placebo effect because physical symptoms are also improved. It's amazing...I just took it once. Maybe today's just a lucky day. I'll keep trying to take Cal-Mag supplement and post whatever new happens. Perhaps my body lacks magnesium....???
This is the end of the thread.
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