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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 53 to 77 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
this is from joan larson's site which i have not yet seen mentioned on this board...
i would like to see what you guys think of her work.....
check it out at:
http://www.healthrecovery.com/biochemical_depression.html++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A Word of Caution About 5-Hydroxytryptophan or 5-HTP
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taken from the Life Extension Foundation newsletterThe reasons for the potential risks of 5-HT were brought to our attention by Steven B Harris, M.D. He explained that: 5-Hydroxytryptophan (5-HT) is one step closer to serotonin than tryptophan. The Sequence is as follows.
Tryptophan > 5-Hydroxytryptophan > Serotonin
Based on the above metabolic sequence it would appear desirable to use 5-HT instead of tryptophan since 5-HT more readily converts to serotonin. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that is often deficient in the brains of depressed people. Boosting serotonin can alleviate depression in some people and reduce carbohydrate cravings in others, thus inducing weight loss. Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans, and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow significant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the bran for conversion into serotonin. The process by which 5-H is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT is absorbed by the brain, than blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain. When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtually no serotonin reaching the brain. We will describe later the dangers of overloading the blood with serotonin. Americans taking 5-HT are more vulnerable to blood serotonin overload because, unlike most Europeans who are vitamin deficient, Americans who use 5-HT usually take large doses of vitamin B6 as well. Vitamin B6 rapidly converts 5-HT into serotonin before it can reach the brain. Even when combined with carbidopa, high levels of vitamin B6 will break through the carbidopa barrier and insure that 5-HT converts into serotonin in the blood before the it can reach the brain The multiple health benefits of vitamin B6 are too important, we believe, to recommend that people avoid taking vitamin B6 just to enable them to try using 5-HT to boost brain serotonin levels. This may be difficult anyway without also taking carbidopa, which is only available in the US. as a prescription drug. At the very best, those who take vitamin B6 with 5-HT are probably wasting their money. Unfortunately, high serotonin in the blood in not benign. Anyone suffering from heart disease should avoid 5-HT because the elevation in blood serotonin could cause coronary artery spasm an/or abnormal platelet aggregation, which are risk factors for sudden death heart attack. Here is the real frightening aspect of serotonin overload, as described by Dr. Harris: "Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium and valves of their right hearts with can cause heart failure. The effect can also be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin, and there has actually been described in the medical literature, a tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a result of eating green banana mush, which poisons them with its serotonin content" Dr. Harris goes on to state that people who ingest several hundred milligrams a day of 5-HT with B6 and without a decarboxylase inhibitor would expect to see urinary excretion of a serotonin metabolite in the same range as a person with a serotonin secreting tumor. Based upon Dr. Harris' report the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions. 1) For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to: a)Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug. b)Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least six hours before or after 5-HT carbidopa dosing. c) Have a urinary test to measure a metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) on a regular basis. As long as 5-HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe. 2) Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension may want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg a day of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack. 3)The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin levels are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from a lethal serotonin peripheral overload. 4) Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic. 5) At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT induced serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle. Based on the potential health risks of ingesting 5-HIT, Bio Recovery has decided not to offer it tat this time. we encourage anyone seeking to use 5-HT to follow strictly the above protocol for safe 5-HT supplementation. We'll post further evidence regarding 5-HTP as soon as it becomes available. This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin in the blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT can convert directly into serotonin while tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against blood serotonin overload.
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 20:14:30
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP Please Help!! » matthhhh, posted by Larry Hoover on September 26, 2003, at 16:56:44
> Alpo beef stew is better for you than the supermarket version.
I'm not sure what alpo beef stew is, but I don't think I'll try that one.
Thanks for the correction and FDA link
Jan
Posted by JLx on September 26, 2003, at 20:30:13
In reply to Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
> this is from joan larson's site which i have not yet seen mentioned on this board...
Funny you should say that as I posted her site and mentioned her book right here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/263318.html
Are people not reading my posts, for some reason? I've had several lately not answered. Since I'm fairly new around here I'm wondering....have I committed some sort of faux pas? Well, I don't suppose that's the sort of question anyone really answers, is it? ;)
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 21:42:50
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » joebob, posted by JLx on September 26, 2003, at 20:30:13
>
> Are people not reading my posts, for some reason? I've had several lately not answered. Since I'm fairly new around here I'm wondering....have I committed some sort of faux pas?Well, I don't suppose that's the sort of question anyone really answers, is it? ;)
>lol, guess that HAS to get an answer?
I'm fairly new too, I guess.I did see your previous post and realised they were the same, but I'd already stated my uneducated opinion <g> before your first post.
Sometimes if I read a thread I'll find answers I answers to questions I have posed in other posts.
There is someone who posted to me a detailed post on female hormones I think, and I really can't find it to reply to..despite looking..so if it was you (or anyone)..just point out to me where it was, OK? ..not that I know a lot on this <g>
I'm on the opposite side of the world to most you guys, so I'm probably not often on at the same time..or its near midnight and I'm too tired to reply immediately.
Jan
Posted by matthhhh on September 27, 2003, at 10:07:06
In reply to Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on September 26, 2003, at 19:36:28
Hey everyone, im having problems ordering the cheap tryptophan from the gp site. The final order page never displays what want to purchase, its always blank! i dont know whats goin on.
Posted by joebob on September 27, 2003, at 10:22:36
In reply to Re: Tryptophan/--HTP: Other sources, info: » matthhhh, posted by JLx on September 25, 2003, at 19:40:05
do you have any opinions or experience with larson and hrc? i like her books and web site, but don't know anyone who's been to see her....
it seems to me she is more up to date than the pfeiffer folks
best,
joebob
Posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » JLx, posted by tealady on September 26, 2003, at 21:42:50
> There is someone who posted to me a detailed post on female hormones I think, and I really can't find it to reply to..despite looking..so if it was you (or anyone)..just point out to me where it was, OK? ..not that I know a lot on this <g>
Sorry not to reply sooner, technical difficulties.
Yes, that was me here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20030903/msgs/261578.html I was wondering there what you think of the Dr. John R. Lee school of thought re natural progesterone as opposed to Dr. Elizabeth Vliet who says he has it all backwards. I tried natural progesterone and felt worse.
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 5:47:28
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » tealady, posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
> > Vliet or Larrian Gillepsie?..they reportedly seem to work for most
>
> Yes, it was Vliet in "Screaming to be Heard: Hormonal Connections Women Suspect, and Doctors Still Ignore". Before that I had read, "Natural Progesterone: The Natural Way to Alleviate Symptoms of Menopause, Pms, Endometriosis and Other Hormone-Related Problems"
> by Anna Rushton, Shirley A. Bond and "The Estrogen Alternative: Natural Hormone Therapy with Botanical Progesterone"
> by Raquel Martin, Judi Gerstung. (Those were the books I could get immediately from my local library network.)Re the books: I was looking for some of the titles talked about on the net, but was unable to find ANY in bookstores or libraries anywhere(this was 18mths or more ago)..I know I can buy them over the net..but postage, currency conversion etc works out pretty exxy, so I personally have not read any of them.
I have read quite a few posts and got the gist of people's opinion/ trials etc., as well as websites and articles etc though. Most women seem to go well on Vliet's approach. I do have a book by Gillepsie as she used to post on a forum I was on. She is like Vliet in approach..although no two docs entirely agree on all of this <g>.I thought the natural progesterone folks all made a lot of sense, but then Vliet brought me up short when she said, when do we usually feel the worst in a month,
>if not just before a period when progesterone is high?
that's right in this kindof...our progesterone DROPS right before a period..it's the drop that induces the period.
Progesterone cream is a VERY active compound, which is why it is used in infertility clinics all the time...to HOLD the baby early in a pregnancy...in other words to stop a period happening. Our progesterone goes way high during pregnancy..to hold the baby.Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>If you have NOT ovulated, no progesterone is produced..so here low estrogen causes no ovulation and low progesterone naturally.Taking progesterone won't induce ovulation....only adequate estradiol will do that.
Here's a link http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/hrt/hrt_menstr_hormone.htmFrom about 30-35ish on, women are gradually losing estradiol.
Remember my opinion only..
When estrogen drops, there is a signal to the adrenal glands to increase cortisol production...
using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....Progesterone cream converts to cortisol partly..and if one is under stress ..that can cause a cortisol surge too, and the cortisol surges cause estrogen swings..so can you see why this might cause problems like migraines, fluid retention, depression... Progesterone also suppresses estrogen..which is needed in our brains
"Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy for treating depression, anxiety etc...
but none of the docs completely agree on everything..most do recognise the problems of insufficient estrogen though and kinda agree to disagree on testosterone, progesterone etc.Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol, causing fluid retention(bloating) and does not much to replace what you are missing....levels of estrogen.(it actually functions as an anti-estrogen).
However , there are a few women who benefit. Some young women may possibly benefit where their estrogen spikes way too high (unusual I think)..also those with endometriosis.
I've seen one lady who has found she can covert progesterone to estrogen adequately...probably hundreds who don't though.
What progesterone is good for is perhaps a short term boost ..as a lot converts to cortisol,..which is why most feel good short term
Longer term some women are taking progesterone successfully if cycling it and using it to regulate periods..it appears good for this in some women ..here's a reply I got from someone whose opinion I value"As for the progesterone. I never had a problem with it. I used it as directed since last Sept, thru May and then thought I'd give it a go without. Just to see what would happen. First month off I was 3 days late but had no PMS symptoms still and a normal period. Second month off I was right on time as if I were still using the cream. No symptoms again. Now I should have my 3rd cycle off the cream by this weekend. We'll see if my body is still straightened out and hope my period comes on time. I simply got tired of remembering to use the cream on days 12-26 each month. That's why I quit the cream. Too lazy to watch a calendar you might say. And I wanted to see how I'd do without it for a while.
You can bet that if I get any painful or heavy period problems, I'll go right back on the cream since it seemed to fix a lifetime of problem periods">
> I know natural progesterone is said to work for many and I found it very disappointing it didn't for me, although I did later find a message board where some other women had a bad experience too.>
> I wouldn't rule out trying natural progesterone again -- perhaps I took too much or it would have been ok if I'd stuck it out longer, but basically I felt I had to quit it because I was feeling so much worse, and CRAVING carbohydrates as well, which was something I'd been free of on magnesium.yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
>
>> For years, I took a women's herbal formula that included 25 mg of DHEA because it was the only appreciable thing that helped with depression. I found that out by inadvertently buying the DHEAless version of the same brand and noticing I felt worse. I had just quit that when I started on magnesium. I'm back on it again, just taking it a bit less than previously.I haven't tried DHEA. I do have a script for it (none of this is available otc in Oz)..I'm just trying to find out more about it...
>
> I think now in general, that without the DHEA, with the magnesium, with other radical dietary changes leading to a weight loss of 45 lbs (fat=estrogen, fat loss=grhelin and who knows what other hormones and how they intereact with each other) I was just way out of whack hormonally after two months. Some of it may have been a normal fluctuation, as I didn't have a period for 4-5 months, and restarted again but Eby says boron, which I've also been taking, can bring back periods in menopausal women which implies a major hormonal impact just from that.Well you can't get a period if you don't have any endometrial buildup...but if you do take estrogen it's best to use progesterone for 5 days or so every 3 months to induce a period(after you stop the progesterone) to shed any buildup.
I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
>
> I'm being so longwinded, in case anyone can shed some light on these hormonal/depression interactions. What's your experience/opinion of the John R. Lee school of thought re natural progesterone?Well basically a above, but also I believe low estrogen can cause depression ..and also some won't respond to antiD's with low estrogen levels in their brains. (my opinion only again)
Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors"...I've heard there is a new process under patent at the moment I think in the US to do something to estradiol so it can be absorbed thru a cream...but that is not used by compounding pharmacies...
>. It really makes me angry that they are so ignorant of nutrition and how it impacts depression.
Yes it doesn't seem to be taught over here either..not covered in any courses that I know of..some optional courses run for post grads
They are better trained in Germany, at least on hormones etc(the docs..unsure of the p-docs).
I'm constantly amazed/amused? at how little the docs know usually.
I mean statements like(from one of my docs)... "I studied Medicine..I didn't do any science. Medicine is NOT science....or how about "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>..still that same doc is excellent at setting broken bones. My opinion here is that medicine has just got toooo large in knowledge and really probably completely different specialties need to happen from fairly early on in training ..with some having an emphasis on nutrition/hormones/biochemistry etc
>
> > You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> I am going to start eating cottage cheese though, despite my "no dairy" rule as it has a high percentage of taurine and is low in calcium.Hope this helps,
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 6:33:39
In reply to Re: Tryptophan vs 5HTP more info » tealady, posted by JLx on October 3, 2003, at 10:34:18
Here's some experiences..
I've included the url's if you are interested
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.16
"I tried natural progesterone for 3 years and found that it made me wired and crazy, caused insomnia, bloating, breast tenderness and gave me very heavy clotting periods. Of course I just thought I was going wacky but within 2 months of stopping the progesterone, all those symptoms disappeared. Since reproductive hormones like progesterone are stored in the fat cells, it took about 2 months for it to leave my body. "http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.19
"I find that my highest progesterone time is when my boobs hurt, I'm irritable, crave sugar or chocolate, etc. I've never tried pregnancy, but the highest time for progesterone is maintaining a pregnancy (that is why it goes up after ovulation). It is also a time when boobs can hurt and women can have food cravings (and gain a lot of weight)"http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.21
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=43795.25
"When I became menopausal at 42, I experienced severe hot flashes. I read Dr. Lee's book about natural progesterone and I purchased ProGest, a natural progesterone cream because I was fighting going on HRT. It did NOT help the hot flashes at all and I was noticeably depressed. I stopped the cream and the depression improved. Eventually, I began taking natural HRT (estrace and prometrium, natural oral progesterone). The hot flashes improved. After 3 years we have dropped the prometrium to 12 days every 3 months, and I have to say it has vastly improved the way I feel since I do not have to take the progesterone every day"
Actually if you just read thru a bit of that thread you may get an idea..here's another further along in threadDr. Lee is a chiropracter, not an MD. And not a gyno" Dr. Lee is a MD, at least that's what his book says.
Now, I don't agree with him (anymore) that postmeno women are estrogen dominant. Maybe the really obese ones could be, don't know.
I used ProGest for several years and while it has some merits at some point it began to cause me depression which he says it won't do. I quit it & am glad I did. Now I'd never recommend anyone use it."But a few do have success with progesterone... usually only using for less than a year though...
Good luck with whatever you decide,
Jan?
Posted by JLx on October 12, 2003, at 9:44:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 5, 2003, at 5:47:28
> Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
I suppose that's why he's NOT in the mainstream! ;) His approach must work for some women though, the question I'd have then is why, if the underlying theory is wrong.
> OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
> Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
> If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>One thing that's more complicated is being in the uncertain time of peri/menopause. I'll be glad when it's just done! I've been in PERImenopause now for about 7 years.
> using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....
> "Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy
Was this a good book?
> Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol,
That's just the opposite of what the estrogen-dominant folks say, though I lean towards agreeing with you that John R. Lee and co. have it wrong.
> yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
I really don't see why it would ever be advised then, as usually people are trying to LOWER their cortisol levels. At least I am, especially after reading "The Cortisol Connection".
> I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
I've been taking it for a while, 3 mg once or more per day. It increases estradiol apparently. I read that here http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/Osteoporosis.htm and here: http://www.ithyroid.com/boron.htm
> Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".
I see on the thyroid site discussion link you posted that some woman are putting estriol creme on their faces and hands for cosmetic reasons. Have you tried that?
> "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>Hey, lucky you! ;)
>You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?My understanding is that it's too excititory to the brain -- at least for certain depressives and I'm apparently one of them. If they won't say what it's chelated WITH, I'd think they're not a very good company as that's something we should know. Taurine, btw, is calming to glutamate's excitatory-ness, so if you eat something, feel weird, it might be worth a try. It worked for me after I had suicidal ideation after trying L-glutamine.
> Hope this helps,
Thanks for the detailed response and links/info in this and the following post. :) I think I'll give natural progesterone a pass for a while. I am actually feeling pretty good these days, on tyrosine and the rest of the handfuls of stuff I'm taking. (I'm going to start a thread on DHEA.)
JL
Posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by JLx on October 12, 2003, at 9:44:32
> > Lee has got it wrong IMO. (I should quote you some of Larrian's comments but I'd better not...just say she reckon Lee has got his biochemistry all wrong)
>
> I suppose that's why he's NOT in the mainstream! ;) His approach must work for some women though, the question I'd have then is why, if the underlying theory is wrong.My guess is some women need the cortisol etc. and some of the progesterone does convert to estrogen (if lucky), ..the conversion would be individual..I think I gave an example of one woman who appeared to convert a lot to estrogen. There are "typical" pathways followed and sometimes other pathways followed..it's individual.
Also you never know but there may be other thing are bodies use progesterone for...it makes sense to me..they just haven't discovered it as yet. The known stuff here is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
That's why I really like to hear/read of folk's individual experiences..they are real
I've found that most women who have success with progesterone, usually cycle it..like days 12 to 26..and only take for a few months at a time.
Most unsuccessful take constantly for over a year...probably their cortisol levels just build up too high after this..then they start showing signs of cushings>
> > OK, this is MY understanding of how it works briefly...
> > Estradiol begins to rise day 5ish, and starts to surge day 10 inducing ovulation around day 12-14
> > If your estrogen levels got high enough so you did ovulate you produce progesterone to thicken the lining for receiving the ovum. This is the luteal phase...the problem part. ..the PMS etc part is when the progesterone rises/falls...the progesterone can cause swings in estrogen..larrian takes this a bit further by suggesting the swings in estradiol can alter thyroid binding globulin..which alters tsh..which altrs sensitivity to salt..which causes bloating..and if we don't have adequatre serotonin thru good diet(like we consume too many junk carbs), we get moody, depressed .... It's probably a heap more complicated <g>
>
> One thing that's more complicated is being in the uncertain time of peri/menopause. I'll be glad when it's just done! I've been in PERImenopause now for about 7 years.
>
> > using low dose estrogen sends signals back to the adrenals to take a rest.....
>
> > "Hormones and the Mind" is a book I did buy which explains how Dr Klaiber, a psychoneuroendocrinologist used hormone therapy
>
> Was this a good book?Well it's a couple of years since I read it. I liked it at the time, as I had always thought my hormonal levels should be treated instead of just being handed out AD's ..but docs are scared of estrogen, due to cancer etc, and for some reason seem to think antiD's are akin to jelly beans for women <g>
I used to find them difficult to tolerate.
I think I like this book at the time as it was agreeing with what I had always suspected for me, that if you get the hormonal levels corrected the depression will lift, or at least his patients could then respond more normally to the antiD's.>
> > Progesterone cream probably if used long term..like over one year probably make you fat as it increases testosterone/cortisol,
>
> That's just the opposite of what the estrogen-dominant folks say, though I lean towards agreeing with you that John R. Lee and co. have it wrong.
>
> > yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
>
> I really don't see why it would ever be advised then, as usually people are trying to LOWER their cortisol levels. At least I am, especially after reading "The Cortisol Connection".well some people have too low cortisol..where the stress has lasted a long time usually
>
> > I'm not sure about Boron, let me know how it goes....it has only just come popular over here. I didn't realise it had a hormonal impact like that.
>
> I've been taking it for a while, 3 mg once or more per day. It increases estradiol apparently. I read that here http://www.y2khealthanddetox.com/Osteoporosis.htm and here: http://www.ithyroid.com/boron.htm
>
> > Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".
>
> I see on the thyroid site discussion link you posted that some woman are putting estriol creme on their faces and hands for cosmetic reasons. Have you tried that?<g>..yes, it works. I haven't tried the type they buy though. It's popular in France and Germany...has been for a long time.
>
> > "Homocysteine does NOT exist in Australia" <g>
>
> Hey, lucky you! ;)guess we all have to work within limits
>
> >You know, that is why I'm never sure of "amino acid chelates"..I have no idea WHICH amino acid, and I have not been able to find out. I have sensitivities to MSG, so I guess glumate is out for me too? Magnesium glutamate does sound bad...I wonder if that is what you could get if you bought magnesium amino acid chelate?
>
> My understanding is that it's too excititory to the brain -- at least for certain depressives and I'm apparently one of them. If they won't say what it's chelated WITH, I'd think they're not a very good company as that's something we should know.None of the companies I contacted would say..the best answer I got was ..whatever is cheapest at the time
Taurine, btw, is calming to glutamate's excitatory-ness, so if you eat something, feel weird, it might be worth a try. It worked for me after I had suicidal ideation after trying L-glutamine.
>
> > Hope this helps,
Thanks, re DHEA I haven't tried....probably will start next weekend. Both DHEA and progesterone are only available under doc's scripts over here..
>
> Thanks for the detailed response and links/info in this and the following post. :) I think I'll give natural progesterone a pass for a while. I am actually feeling pretty good these days, on tyrosine and the rest of the handfuls of stuff I'm taking. (I'm going to start a thread on DHEA.)
>
> JL
>
Jan
Posted by EscherDementian on October 13, 2003, at 1:52:23
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
tealady, Thank you, Thank you again for your informed and generous info. and directions for looking.
Forgive this "lurker"'s butt-in, here, but i had to thank you.
My PMHNP mentioned female hormones thrice while we were trying to balance my out-of-whack cortisol and depression, but never followed through with a proposed solution or more info. before she abandoned me to a referral away.
Are we twins, afterall? Are you my PMHNP's reversed 'Shadow' in the CJung sense?
i have much to study and look into, ThankYou for your directed light.Escher
P.S. much more focused nowadays. Thanx for being there when i was still ranting.
Posted by Ron Jones on October 15, 2003, at 14:50:40
In reply to 5-HTP, posted by Penny on September 4, 2003, at 13:32:53
I hate 5htp .It could not take it.Fish oil and inositol is much better.
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 21, 2003, at 20:20:55
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by EscherDementian on October 13, 2003, at 1:52:23
To those who have confusions and concerns about hormones, you are right, they are confusing and of great concern. Please do yourself a favor and get tested. You won't get these tests from your primary care doc and will probably have to go to a naturopath. My saliva tests pointed out a very imbalanced hormone profile, even though I had been taking oral 'natural' estiol and progesterone. Yes, yes I know that Elizabeth Vliet doesn't believe in saliva tests, but I don't have confidence in her conclusions either. Both she and Dr. Lee are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and even though I appreciate the work Dr. Vliet has done on the connections between estrogen and neurochemical synthesis, I believe she is doing potential harm in pushing estrogen. Dr. Lee's views are one-sided and evangelistic but I do agree with him that we're not paying enough attention to the dangerous fact of estrogen dominance. Progesterone excess can make us depressed and fat, but estrogen excess can kill us - and make us anxious and fat. Our world is full of xenoestrogens - just look at the poor male 'gators in the Florida swamplands morphing into female 'gators. Maybe that's a natural checks and balances for over-population in a toxic world, who knows. Our bodies at perimenopause are estrogen dominant, a wrong balance of hormone therapies can make our estrogen/progesterone ratios too high.
Happened to me and I spent 2 miserable months in a drastic precancerous endometrial hyperplasia shedding fright because my cookie cutter standard dose of oral natural hormones were way off - too high a ratio of estrogen. Even after this happened, my ob/gyn would not order tests for my baseline levels or to monitor me henceforth, saying the blood tests weren't accurate.
My naturopath, bless her heart, is working miracles on my mind and body. She takes the time and treats my unique medical issues with great knowledge and wisdom and she knows her stuff. I am firmly convinced that the majority of managed care physicians sadly do not and are doing many of us great harm.
I'm now taking transdermal bi-est (estradiol and estriol), progesterone, DHEA, and testosterone. As far as the estrogens not absorbing, my compounding pharmacy recently switched to a new carrier cream and it no longer sits on my skin like the other goo. Something is getting where it belongs since my levels are balancing nicely.
With something like hormones it's like playing with a loaded gun trying to spec out what we may or may not need. We want to believe the research and ads about DHEA, we want to try the progesterone cream from the health store. We just want to feel better so we do the research and try to sift through the many opinions. We may hit it right with our self-trials, but more often we don't and end up sicker and poorer. For example, DHEA sounds so promising but DHEA can be converted to estrogens or testosterone depending on many factors, one of which is cortisol level. Estrogen influences thyroid hormone and vice versa, and ALL of it is controlled way upline by the hypothalamus/pituitary. Oral estrogen unfortunately interfere with the production of Human Growth Hormone, which is produced by the pituitary and is a major part of the signalling hormonal feedback loop of the HPA-axis. Such a tangled web.
With all the info out there it's easy to get lost. My experience, notwithstanding Dr. Vliet's opinion, is that saliva tests are very sensitive and will put you on the right track. Perhaps you want to go solo and monitor things on your own while undergoing your own regime. Consider monitoring your levels and progress by getting saliva tests sent to your home. You don't need a doctor's prescription (unless you live in California). You might be surprised at what you find out. Visit http://www.salivatest.com. Its the lab my naturopath uses. There's alot of real good info on the site about hormones in general. Even if you are receiving the standard formulary dose of hormone replacment and not getting your levels monitored, might be worthwhile shelling out the bucks and being proactive about your progress. There's too much at stake here, not only the cancer connection, but our hormonal balance is the missing link in our mood disorders. Why the medical profession at large isn't getting this is mind boggling. Take care, y'all. - BCat
Posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:20:30
In reply to Re: female hormones » JLx, posted by tealady on October 12, 2003, at 18:13:32
Sorry for the delay in replying, been busy trying to pull my life together...a more than full time job! :)
> My guess is some women need the cortisol etc. and some of the progesterone does convert to estrogen (if lucky), ..the conversion would be individual...
I had one day on the progesterone where I felt a definite boost of energy. I hauled my bike out of the basement and took it for a spin. First time in many years! I thought, great, this is going to work as increased energy was one of the benefits touted...but it was only the one day that I felt that. Then I felt worse again. Very disappointing.
> > > yep, cortisol will make you crave carbohydrates
> well some people have too low cortisol..where the stress has lasted a long time usuallyAside from "The Cortisol Connection" I haven't read much about cortisol, but the carb craving certainly jibes with my experience. If you have any sites handy about cortisol, I'd appreciate them.
> > > Also Estradiol is not fat soluble so it can't be absorbed thru skin in a cream, only two other estrogens,(estrone, estriol) are but Larrian says " you don't want them because they increase fat and cause prolonged excitation of the estradiol receptors".Hmm...but estradiol is the one indicated in breast cancer, isn't it? What type does Larrian recommend when she recommends estrogen? (I joined her webpage, but can't afford the pay part of it.)
> <g>..yes, it works. I haven't tried the type they buy though. It's popular in France and Germany...has been for a long time.What type have you tried?
> None of the companies I contacted would say..the best answer I got was ..whatever is cheapest at the time.
I notice that the Beyond a Century site has magnesium glycinate in the bulk form and the price looks good -- maybe even good enough to justify the overseas shipping for you (if they do overseas shipping). When I run out of my current stash of magnesium, I am going to try their's.
> Thanks, re DHEA I haven't tried....probably will start next weekend. Both DHEA and progesterone are only available under doc's scripts over here..Have you started, how's it going?
JL
Posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:28:28
In reply to Re: female hormones, posted by BarbaraCat on October 21, 2003, at 20:20:55
>Even if you are receiving the standard formulary dose of hormone replacment and not getting your levels monitored, might be worthwhile shelling out the bucks and being proactive about your progress. There's too much at stake here, not only the cancer connection, but our hormonal balance is the missing link in our mood disorders. Why the medical profession at large isn't getting this is mind boggling. Take care, y'all. - BCat
I agree that doctor's are mostly missing the boat when it comes to hormonal connections to mood disorders...just as they are frequently missing the nutritional connections too. So, what ARE we paying them for? ;)
I'm sure you're right about the testing (thanks for the link) but it's out of the question for me right now financially. That's one of the things I like about DHEA -- it's not very expensive.
Posted by oreilledemouche on October 27, 2003, at 11:42:32
In reply to Re: female hormones » tealady, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:20:30
ouais, mais pour le progestérone les conditions de prélèvement sont le prélèvement de sang veineux (en général au pli du coude). Il n'est pas nécessaire d'être à jeun. Il faut par contre préciser l'âge et la date des dernières règles, le nombre de semaines d'aménorrhée en cas de grossesse.
Quant à l'intérêt du dosage, la progestérone est une hormone produite par le corps jaune en deuxième phase du cycle menstruel, par le corps jaune gravidique puis par le placenta au cours de la grossesse. Son rôle est de préparer l'utérus à la nidation, puis de préparer la glande mammaire à la lactation. Son dosage permet en cours de grossesse, de refléter l'activité placentaire. En dehors de ce cadre, la progestérone sera dosée dans l'exploration de troubles hormonaux Elle est également utile pour la fécondation in vitro.
Bonne chance, tealady et JLx. Je vous embrasse tres fort!
Posted by JLx on October 27, 2003, at 16:02:16
In reply to female hormones » tealady » JLx, posted by oreilledemouche on October 27, 2003, at 11:42:32
> ouais, mais pour le progestérone les conditions de prélèvement sont le prélèvement de sang veineux (en général au pli du coude). Il n'est pas nécessaire d'être à jeun. Il faut par contre préciser l'âge et la date des dernières règles, le nombre de semaines d'aménorrhée en cas de grossesse.
>
> Quant à l'intérêt du dosage, la progestérone est une hormone produite par le corps jaune en deuxième phase du cycle menstruel, par le corps jaune gravidique puis par le placenta au cours de la grossesse. Son rôle est de préparer l'utérus à la nidation, puis de préparer la glande mammaire à la lactation. Son dosage permet en cours de grossesse, de refléter l'activité placentaire. En dehors de ce cadre, la progestérone sera dosée dans l'exploration de troubles hormonaux Elle est également utile pour la fécondation in vitro.
>
> Bonne chance, tealady et JLx. Je vous embrasse tres fort!I don't speak French, unfortunately, but this is what came up on Alta Vista's Babel Fish Translation:
"ouais, but for progesterone the conditions of taking away are the taking away of venous blood (in general with the fold of the elbow). It is not necessary to be to jeun. It is on the other hand necessary to specify the age and the date of the last rules, the number of weeks of amenorrhoea in the event of pregnancy. As for the interest of proportioning, the progesterone is a hormone produced by the yellow body in second phase of the menstrual cycle, by the yellow body gravidic then by the placenta during the pregnancy. Its role is to prepare the uterus with nidation, then to prepare the gland mammaire with lactation. Its proportioning allows in the course of pregnancy, to reflect the placental activity. Apart from this framework, the progesterone will be proportioned in the exploration of hormonal disorders It is also useful for the in vitro fertilization. Good luck, tealady and JLx. I kiss you very extremely!"
Hmm...that's not too clear, but anyway, thanks! :)
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 17:56:12
In reply to Re: female hormones » BarbaraCat, posted by JLx on October 26, 2003, at 13:28:28
Be real careful with DHEA. It sounded like a good idea to my husband and me as well. Unfortunately, his was converting to estradiol instead of testosterone. Bummer. According to tests I needed it, but I was deficient in testosterone and the DHEA was converting to estrogen, further adding to my excess. I was just hoping to balance things out but for both of us it made things worse. Even more unpredictable is pregnenolone, so-called 'mother of hormones'. Again, sounds like a magic bullet but it's not and is very erratic in what it converts to down-line.
Here's a very informative link about cortisol, maybe more than you want to know. I'm digesting it very slowly so haven't gotten to the end. Perhaps you're looking for something specifically related to hormones and cortisol in which case, probably just do a web engine search on estrogen+cortisol or progesterone+cortisol or something like that. - Barbara
Posted by JLx on October 28, 2003, at 8:20:25
In reply to Re: female hormones/cortisol link » JLx, posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 17:56:12
Thanks for the link, interesting discussion.
I wish I COULD work with a knoweledgeable doctor, and get tested but it's not possible right now. I am without a job or any income whatsoever, surviving on food stamps and charity from my parents, about to have my house foreclosed, etc. I hate guessing at all this, but health care, except by my own efforts, is a luxury I can't afford.
I stopped taking DHEA for a couple months when I started supplementing with magnesium, boron, eating better, etc. because I felt good enough. Then my mood dropped precipitously at the same time that I had pee dripping down my legs when I got up in the morning and my breasts seemed kind of deflated. I also had a period for the first time in 4-5 months. I was reading the natural progesterone books I mentioned earlier on this thread and decided to try progesterone -- Progest-E drops that you use sublingually. I think I inadvertently took too much at first, but then cut it down considerably as I experimented more successfully squeezing out that "3 mg drop". Aside from that one day when I had a burst of energy -- something I usually lack -- I felt rotten, worse as I went along (tried it for about 2 weeks), like I had PMS (irritable, craving carbs, swollen, tender breastst, etc.) so I quit taking it and felt better almost immediately.
Later I resumed the 25 mg/day of DHEA. Now, I've added amino acids and some other things to my daily supplement mix...and I suspect things are chaning hormonally again. DHEA used to give me a libido boost, for instance, but now less so. Now I'm experimenting with the DHEA every other day.
Here's an interesting thing -- to me anyway! ;) The Progest-E nearly cleared up my rosacea....and so does taurine. Taurine blocks or somehow mediates estrogen, I've read somewhere, and perhaps that's why. Or maybe it's related to stress somehow, as stress is related to rosacea, and taurine is calming.
I'm feeling pretty good on my latest regimen, but I can tell that as some things get "righted" some others get out of whack. I don't sleep as well as I used to before I added tyrosine and I'm having the devil of a time figuring out a good magnesium/calcium ratio which I suspect is related to the sleeping. I used to always be a nightowl, who needed 8 hours sleep, until in my 40's when I started sleeping less and/or wildly irregularly. My understanding is that sleep before midnight is more valuable than after so now I force myself to go to bed very early, which has felt good until lately when I am wake up periodically throughout the night. I'm also having these weird hot/cold fluctuations (like mini and mild hot flashes/chills), both at night and during the day. Nor have I had a period for a few months now.
Not sure where cortisol might fit in to that whole picture but I certainly WISH I had the kind of energy that I had that one day. (If you have any thoughts or insights, they'd be most welcome.)
> Be real careful with DHEA. It sounded like a good idea to my husband and me as well. Unfortunately, his was converting to estradiol instead of testosterone. Bummer. According to tests I needed it, but I was deficient in testosterone and the DHEA was converting to estrogen, further adding to my excess. I was just hoping to balance things out but for both of us it made things worse. Even more unpredictable is pregnenolone, so-called 'mother of hormones'. Again, sounds like a magic bullet but it's not and is very erratic in what it converts to down-line.
>
> Here's a very informative link about cortisol, maybe more than you want to know. I'm digesting it very slowly so haven't gotten to the end. Perhaps you're looking for something specifically related to hormones and cortisol in which case, probably just do a web engine search on estrogen+cortisol or progesterone+cortisol or something like that. - Barbara
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20031015/msgs/269703.html
Posted by loolot on October 28, 2003, at 10:38:40
In reply to Re: female hormones/cortisol link » BarbaraCat, posted by JLx on October 28, 2003, at 8:20:25
I read in one study about hypoadrenal function that patients who had less cortisol actually had more DHEA in their blood. So taking DHEA may be misleading. It might be better to supplement with cortisol? Im guessing.
Ill try to find the article and post it
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:53:23
In reply to Re: female hormones/cortisol link » BarbaraCat, posted by JLx on October 28, 2003, at 8:20:25
Licorice is one of the best adrenal tonifiers around. Not the stringy crap but the real thing. There's been some bad press about licorice raising blood pressure. That seems to be true only with American licorice and should be avoided. The kind you want is European (glycyrryiza glabra) or Asian (glycyrrhiza uralensis). You might have to go online to find it. If you can get licorice extract all the better. Wise Woman Herbals puts out a good one and 1/4 teaspoon per day is a great adrenal support, boosts DHEA levels and regulates cortisol up or down.
As for DHEA being inversely proportional to cortisol, that's what I've noticed too - my husband whose cortisol is very low has normal DHEA, and my DHEA is very low but my cortisol is normal. But really, if you could spring $150 for the saliva test (ZRT Laboratories is the best I've found), you'd know the state of your cortisol, DHEA and sex hormones and save yourself alot of time, frustration and money. - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2003, at 8:20:37
In reply to Licorice and adrenals » JLx, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:53:23
> Licorice is one of the best adrenal tonifiers around. Not the stringy crap but the real thing. There's been some bad press about licorice raising blood pressure. That seems to be true only with American licorice and should be avoided. The kind you want is European (glycyrryiza glabra) or Asian (glycyrrhiza uralensis). You might have to go online to find it. If you can get licorice extract all the better. Wise Woman Herbals puts out a good one and 1/4 teaspoon per day is a great adrenal support, boosts DHEA levels and regulates cortisol up or down.
Licorice blocks the breakdown of cortisol, and inhibits testosterone synthesis. It's indicated for adrenal fatigue, but I wouldn't use it for adrenal excess.
See:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021108/msgs/126943.html
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 2, 2003, at 11:12:01
In reply to Re: Licorice and adrenals » BarbaraCat, posted by Larry Hoover on November 2, 2003, at 8:20:37
> Licorice blocks the breakdown of cortisol, and inhibits testosterone synthesis. It's indicated for adrenal fatigue, but I wouldn't use it for adrenal excess.
>
**Thanks Larry. I didn't know about the testosterone thing. Goes to show how taking anything based on heresay of desired benefits can have anything but the desired effect. I think about all the claims made for very powerful OTC hormonal substances like melatonin, DHEA, progesterone creams, phytoestrogen supplements and how many people are taking them on trust without getting any baseline hormonal values. Not a good thing. Thanks for your input. - Barbara
Posted by loolot on November 2, 2003, at 15:13:40
In reply to Licorice and adrenals » JLx, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:53:23
Is that a home test? Do those work? I have thought about trying that
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