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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 86. Go back in thread:
Posted by gardenergirl on December 6, 2005, at 15:17:41
In reply to Re: correct links? –Arrrgh!, posted by alexandra_k on December 6, 2005, at 14:37:53
> > that is why i'm here
> (one of the reasons anyway)
> but turns out...
> that is why i must leave...runs screaming from the room....
Talk to us, please.
gg
Posted by pseudoname on December 6, 2005, at 16:13:59
In reply to Re: correct links? –Arrrgh!, posted by alexandra_k on December 6, 2005, at 14:37:53
> because i get into a low place...
> and i think my life is worthless anywayI guess you *are* in a low place. I wish I could return the kind of supportiveness you've repeatedly volunteered to me....
> there it is in the archives indefinately
> for anyone and everyone with an internet
> connection to seeThe body of your work here that I have seen is something to be *proud* of.... Any co-worker who thinks otherwise would be a muffin-brain.
We can explain to anyone that you're only here trying to help the rest of us. Right? You are doing charity work. Or better yet: *research!* for a brilliant book that will make you rich and everyone else envious.
So, don't leave.
Posted by Dinah on December 6, 2005, at 16:43:54
In reply to Re: correct links? –Arrrgh!, posted by alexandra_k on December 6, 2005, at 14:15:44
Alexandra, I honestly don't recall anything you've ever said here that should cause you to want to leave. People might find out a bit more about you, but nothing they should be able to hold against you.
The two people I care about accessing Babble have both promised not to, and if they do then they don't deserve my trust and they deserve to read whatever I've written about them. If anyone else in my life happens across Babble it wouldn't be too hard to identify me. But I haven't written anything in a very long time that I would be horrendously embarassed to have anyone read (or I wouldn't write it). They'd know way more about me than I share in real life, but who cares.
I sometimes worry that my son will violate my privacy and read here, because he's really too young to ask not to do that, and I'm not sure a young person's maturity level is up to the challenge if I did. There are things I don't want him to see. But that's the risks I take, I guess.
Posted by rainbowbrite on December 6, 2005, at 18:14:00
In reply to Re: correct links? –Arrrgh! » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on December 6, 2005, at 16:43:54
I suppose that depends. There are things that some of us have posted that would be truely devasting if others read it, really. How violating it feels to worry that someone is reading what you wrote. I understand that I can't defend this, it is not hidden information. But we all make mistakes. I came here because of the anonimity
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2005, at 4:23:30
In reply to Wiki article is UP!, posted by pseudoname on December 6, 2005, at 13:17:29
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2005, at 0:36:13
In reply to Wiki article is UP!, posted by pseudoname on December 6, 2005, at 13:17:29
> It's just what I could come up with quickly, but it's a start. Please, everyone, join in. Correct it, add to it, polish it.
I made a few minor edits. Thanks again for getting this started!
Bob
Posted by pseudoname on December 8, 2005, at 8:16:41
In reply to Re: Wiki article is revised, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2005, at 0:36:13
Posted by pseudoname on December 8, 2005, at 8:50:04
In reply to Re: Wiki article is revised, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2005, at 0:36:13
Posted by alexandra_k2 on December 16, 2005, at 15:54:45
In reply to correct links? –Arrrgh!, posted by pseudoname on December 6, 2005, at 13:37:44
> Contributors are also required to agree to an informed consent waiver, which was implemented after contributors challenged Hsuing to submit his project for review by an Institutional Review Board at the University of Chicago. Hsiung has since relocated the site on non-University servers, posted a message that the site is not affiliated with the University, and stated that it is not primarily for research purposes.
Is that right Dr Bob? How does that sit with this:
> Some members have discussed participating in person at workshops about the site, accepting an open invitation posted by Hsiung at his site to attend the 2006 conference of the American Psychiatric Association.
And with asking people to participate in research at various points?
Is it the 'primarily' that is crucial?
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 19, 2005, at 17:02:53
In reply to Re: is this right dr-bob????, posted by alexandra_k2 on December 16, 2005, at 15:54:45
> How does that sit with this:
>
> > Some members have discussed participating in person at workshops about the site, accepting an open invitation posted by Hsiung at his site to attend the 2006 conference of the American Psychiatric Association.I wouldn't consider that research...
> And with asking people to participate in research at various points?
>
> Is it the 'primarily' that is crucial?Yes, I think so.
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:02:13
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes, posted by Dr. Bob on December 19, 2005, at 17:02:53
> > How does that sit with this:
> > > Some members have discussed participating in person at workshops about the site, accepting an open invitation posted by Hsiung at his site to attend the 2006 conference of the American Psychiatric Association.
> I wouldn't consider that research...
So no informed consent then?
Do you think other people might be inclined to consider it research?Does the APA provide some reimbursement of accomodation / travel costs for 'presenters' then???
> > And with asking people to participate in research at various points?
> > Is it the 'primarily' that is crucial?> Yes, I think so.
Why should it be?
Why... Who is on that ethics committee Dr B?
I think that going through those kinds of boards are fairly much a good thing... Accountability and all...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:06:26
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:02:13
I'm still worried...
You see...
People do give consent when they sign up to babble.
Yes, they do.
And I guess the 'informed' comes from their passing the multi-guess quiz.
But...
When people are distressed they are likely to consent to all kinds of things that could be detrimental to them in the long run...
Things like... having sex with therapists... etc etc... consenting to having posts (that they post when they are at an all time low) archived indefinately... etc etc...
and thats where an ethics committee's approval can be a good safeguard... just in case someone decides to sue you for obtaining 'informed consent' from people who are vulnerable etc etc when you have made it clear that you DO understand that there can be consequences along the lines of loss of job, etc etc in some instances...
is this making any sense at all?
Posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:13:13
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:06:26
regarding the presentation...
unlikely as it may seem to be what if it does go horribly badly for one or more posters?
what if an old p-doc is there?
what if someone decides to be a bit 'blatent' or 'irreverant' or 'downright nasty' or whatever? what if someone asks questions seeking to establish that a particular poster doesn't really know anything about medications yet they respond to other peoples medication queries... what if they decide to soothe their ego that 'self-help' support boards perpeptuate misinformation... you might have a lot of faith in posters abilities to handle themselves but what if some people find the whole thing to be distressing?
never mind?
i just wonder because...
people seem to be doing this because they want to meet you and they want to please youbut you look out for the boards as a whole...
not particular individuals...whereas ethics committees make sure you are looking out for the particular individuals...
why can't you just write a paper?
i'll admit the very idea makes me shudder
'and here we have exhibit A'
i don't know...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:18:19
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:13:13
but then i'll admit i have bad experiences of being questioned by groups of 5 or 6 p-docs at a time when i was in hospital (well, a couple p-docs plus registrars)...
daunting.
i don't think it could be anything but daunting when there is a clear role difference with 'consumer' on the one hand and 'non-consumer' on the other...
Posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:51:57
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:18:19
and when peoples livlihoods are dependent on their being the 'experts' with something unique to offer...
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2005, at 19:12:39
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:13:13
> > > > Some members have discussed participating in person at workshops about the site, accepting an open invitation posted by Hsiung at his site to attend the 2006 conference of the American Psychiatric Association.
>
> > I wouldn't consider that research...
>
> So no informed consent then?I wasn't thinking that explicit informed consent would be needed. Posters are free to ask questions about it. And to discuss it with each other. Which might in some ways actually be an improvement on the usual informed consent process...
> Does the APA provide some reimbursement of accomodation / travel costs for 'presenters' then???
I wish! :-)
> Who is on that ethics committee Dr B?
Sorry, which ethics committee?
> unlikely as it may seem to be what if it does go horribly badly for one or more posters?
>
> what if an old p-doc is there?
>
> what if someone decides to be a bit 'blatent' or 'irreverant' or 'downright nasty' or whatever? what if someone asks questions seeking to establish that a particular poster doesn't really know anything about medications yet they respond to other peoples medication queries... what if they decide to soothe their ego that 'self-help' support boards perpeptuate misinformation... you might have a lot of faith in posters abilities to handle themselves but what if some people find the whole thing to be distressing?There's definitely uncertainty, but I don't think it'll go badly, and if it does, I think we'll be able to deal with it.
Bob
Posted by Deneb on December 27, 2005, at 19:14:06
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes, posted by alexandra_k on December 27, 2005, at 16:13:13
> never mind?
>
> i just wonder because...
> people seem to be doing this because they want to meet you and they want to please youI think that's about right. I want to go so I can see Dr. Bob in person. I would never do this sort of thing otherwise...too risky, too scary. I don't know how I'm going to handle the presenting part, but I really don't care as long as I get to see Dr. Bob.
Posted by Deneb on December 27, 2005, at 19:46:29
In reply to Re: participating in person at workshops, posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2005, at 19:12:39
> > what if an old p-doc is there?
> >
> > what if someone decides to be a bit 'blatent' or 'irreverant' or 'downright nasty' or whatever? what if someone asks questions seeking to establish that a particular poster doesn't really know anything about medications yet they respond to other peoples medication queries... what if they decide to soothe their ego that 'self-help' support boards perpeptuate misinformation... you might have a lot of faith in posters abilities to handle themselves but what if some people find the whole thing to be distressing?
>
> There's definitely uncertainty, but I don't think it'll go badly, and if it does, I think we'll be able to deal with it.
>
> BobHow, Dr. Bob? How will we deal with it? Are people going to ask questions about medications? I don't know anything about meds! Aaah!
What if the people there ask really scary difficult questions and makes us cry? That'll be really embarrassing.
How to deal?
OK, we'll just have to think, "So what if we cry? What do you think other people will think if you start crying?" Crying's not such a big deal, everybody does it. (That's what pdoc1 told me when I got upset that I cried on the bus).
Deneb
Posted by 10derHeart on December 27, 2005, at 20:56:54
In reply to Re: not primarily for research purposes » alexandra_k, posted by Deneb on December 27, 2005, at 19:14:06
I'm sure you already know this, but just in case you've forgotten...there's no reason you can't meet Dr. Bob and other Babblers in Toronto *without* participating in the small groups, etc.
Just come to whatever social events end up being planned, hang out and so forth, right? etc.
> I would never do this sort of thing otherwise...too risky, too scary<
Because I hate to think you're envisioning forcing yourself to do something you're not ready for, or aren't even inclined to do at all, because you're seeing it as sort of the "price you have to pay," and the ONLY way to meet Dr. Bob.
(Unlike me, who sees the presentation/groups, talking with pdocs as a fascinating, unique opportunity....and with the way I won't 'shut-up' once a favorite topic like Babble comes up, well...then the pdocs are the ones who'd better be worried...;-) )
I want you to have fun and come away with an exhilarating, memorable experience (as you often write about not feeling very grown-up, social anxiety, not doing lots of 'adult stuff' on your own, etc.) - including not having unnecessary anxiety over the next five months!
Nothing is set in stone. I'm sure it would be fine if you (or others) intend to participate, then change your mind once there. This is not a life-or-death sort of commitment, ya' know? :-)
I'm excited for you - and everyone else - and me if my $$ situation allows me to go. I'll be happy to sit by you for moral support, or any other kind of support. And, just in the off chance something triggers them, I have zero problem with tears - cryng is an every day thing for me (not meaning that in a bad way, either) and I'm quite comfortable with my tears and anyone else's.
- 10derHeart
aka "I ain't afraid of no pdocs!"
Posted by ClearSkies on December 27, 2005, at 22:29:49
In reply to Hey, Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on December 27, 2005, at 20:56:54
My sentiments exactly.
CS
Posted by 10derHeart on December 27, 2005, at 23:35:13
In reply to Re: Hey, Deneb » 10derHeart, posted by ClearSkies on December 27, 2005, at 22:29:49
Posted by Deneb on December 28, 2005, at 0:02:26
In reply to Hey, Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on December 27, 2005, at 20:56:54
> I'm sure you already know this, but just in case you've forgotten...there's no reason you can't meet Dr. Bob and other Babblers in Toronto *without* participating in the small groups, etc.
Yeah, I know. :-)
I also want to do the small groups thing because it is something exciting I've never done before. I want to experience new things, even scary things. Scary can be fun. :-) I'm glad I'm motivated to do this, even if most of my motivation comes from wanting to meet/please Dr. Bob.
> Just come to whatever social events end up being planned, hang out and so forth, right? etc.I want to do that too! :-)
> Because I hate to think you're envisioning forcing yourself to do something you're not ready for, or aren't even inclined to do at all, because you're seeing it as sort of the "price you have to pay," and the ONLY way to meet Dr. Bob.
I don't see it as a "price I have to pay". I see it as an exciting opportunity to do a new thing. I'm sort of glad that I'm being "forced" to do something I wouldn't otherwise.
> (Unlike me, who sees the presentation/groups, talking with pdocs as a fascinating, unique opportunity....and with the way I won't 'shut-up' once a favorite topic like Babble comes up, well...then the pdocs are the ones who'd better be worried...;-) ):-) Wow, I can't wait to hear your story!
> I want you to have fun and come away with an exhilarating, memorable experience (as you often write about not feeling very grown-up, social anxiety, not doing lots of 'adult stuff' on your own, etc.) - including not having unnecessary anxiety over the next five months!I think it is good anxiety. Makes me feel alive. :-) I think I like worrying about it.
> Nothing is set in stone. I'm sure it would be fine if you (or others) intend to participate, then change your mind once there. This is not a life-or-death sort of commitment, ya' know? :-)That's good to know just in case I'm really terrified when I get there and can't talk.
> I'm excited for you - and everyone else - and me if my $$ situation allows me to go. I'll be happy to sit by you for moral support, or any other kind of support. And, just in the off chance something triggers them, I have zero problem with tears - cryng is an every day thing for me (not meaning that in a bad way, either) and I'm quite comfortable with my tears and anyone else's.
I really hope you'll get to go! I'm sure I'm be less afraid with you around!
Deneb
Posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 3:27:06
In reply to Re: participating in person at workshops, posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2005, at 19:12:39
> I wasn't thinking that explicit informed consent would be needed.
And the relevant ethics committee sees it that way too?
> Posters are free to ask questions about it. And to discuss it with each other. Which might in some ways actually be an improvement on the usual informed consent process...
maybe... but how much more appropriate would both be?
> > Who is on that ethics committee Dr B?
> Sorry, which ethics committee?hmm...
wiki just keeps on changing...i guess there would be an ethics committee to check that there is a process of informed consent for people participating in research. there should be procedures for obtaining that... and consideration of whether 'informed consent' can be given... lets suppose someone managed to get day leave from psych hospital to come along to the presentation and things went badly... were they in a position to provide 'informed consent' when they were under section? how about making an informed decision regarding participation? assessing possible risk etc? people are inclined to trust you you know... yet are you accountable for your conduct? it's not as simple as you think it will probably be alright so it will be alright. an ethics committee might see it differently... sounds like you aren't giving them the opportunity to consider it...
or...
who decides this isn't research?
> While Hsiung states that he no longer conducts research at the site and his administration of it is no longer reviewed by an Institutional Review Board, he continues to link to his research papers and book, continues to advise contributors that he "may publish case studies on his web site or in a book or an academic journal," and continues to make professional presentations based on the site. He has even stated that this Wikipedia article may be a handout at such presentations.
?
> I don't think it'll go badly, and if it does, I think we'll be able to deal with it.
well... if you think people are likely to see it that way... then why not do it by the book with informed consent?
you would have to do this if you were dealing with transcripts of what they were saying would you not?
Posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 3:28:21
In reply to Hey, Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on December 27, 2005, at 20:56:54
> I'm sure you already know this, but just in case you've forgotten...there's no reason you can't meet Dr. Bob and other Babblers in Toronto *without* participating in the small groups, etc.
i remember going to camp as a teenager. i was really keen to be one of the first to arrive and one of the last to leave because i didn't want to miss *anything*
nope nope nope...
Posted by gardenergirl on December 28, 2005, at 4:36:04
In reply to Re: participating in person at workshops » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on December 28, 2005, at 3:27:06
Hi alex,
I'm confused. How is participating in a professional presentation considered research?gg
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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