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Posted by fayeroe on October 18, 2004, at 0:03:08
In reply to Am I Missing Something? » Lou Pilder, posted by mair on October 16, 2004, at 17:10:59
Amen, Mair. Thank you for your post....I saw nothing wrong with the post and your take is completely on. Pat
Posted by fayeroe on October 18, 2004, at 0:05:48
In reply to Re: Lou's request to Dr.Hsiung » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on October 17, 2004, at 4:45:52
Nikki, come over to Psych Central. There are several there that you know. I'm thinking of you and hoping things are better.........Pat
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2004, at 8:33:03
In reply to Lou's request to Dr.Hsiung, posted by Lou Pilder on October 16, 2004, at 14:18:16
> I am requesting a determination as to if the following is acceptable in relation to the guidlines for this forum.
I'll take a look the next time I get to 2000.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2004, at 8:38:38
In reply to Re: Lou's request to Dr.Hsiung » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on October 17, 2004, at 4:45:52
> I know I will get blocked for this, but I need that anyway.
Please don't post to someone if they've asked you not to. Maybe don't even read their posts?
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2004, at 14:15:31
In reply to Re: Lou's request to Dr.Hsiung » Lou Pilder, posted by NikkiT2 on October 16, 2004, at 15:35:06
> Don't tell me, I was being anti semetic by being upset with my husband because my husband has a jewish great aunt?!!!!!!!
>
> Thanks Lou, I was so close to breaking point, and you have helped me just HUGELY today. (that was sarcasm by the way)
>
> CheersDr. Hsiung,
I am requesting that you allow me an exemption from the 3-post rule in order to reply to the above statement in the post,[...don't tell me, I was being antisemitic...].
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 9:22:56
In reply to Re: Lou's request to Dr.Hsiung, posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2004, at 14:15:31
Dr. Hsiung,
I am requesting that you allow me to invite a guest expert to the forum from the Jewish Defense League or the ADL or some other group that could comment on the post below.
[...Don't tell me, I was being antisemitic by being upset with my husband because my husband has a jewish great aunt?!!!!!! Thanks Lou, I was so close to breaking point, and you have helped me just HUGELY today. (that was sarcasm by the way...].
Lou Pilder
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041012/msgs/403873.html
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2004, at 9:30:07
In reply to Lou's request to Dr.Hsiung-3-post-exemp, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 9:22:56
> I am requesting that you allow me to invite a guest expert to the forum from the Jewish Defense League or the ADL or some other group
I'm open in general to guests, do you want to run it by the board and see what the others think?
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 9:40:44
In reply to Re: guest experts, posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2004, at 9:30:07
Dr. Hsiung,
You wrote, [...do you want to run it by the board to see what others think?...].
I do not think that is necessarry, and would preferr that you do not foster a discussion about that, but others could innitiate a discussion about that on their own volition.
Lou Pilder
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 26, 2004, at 10:44:16
In reply to Re: guest experts, posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2004, at 9:30:07
I don't believe my comment really needs an expert to explain anything to me.
I understand antisemitism perfectly well, and my comment was aimed at Lou, and Lou alone. It was in response to myself, and many others, having been accused of being antisemetic on many times over comments that had no real connection to that issue.
I was very hurt, and very upset that a post I wrote whilst in deep pain had been posted here for "review", and the comment was aimed to get a response form Lou as to what exactly was offensive about my post.
Before Lou's previous block, he threatened me with legal action over a comment I can't even remember now. That caused me incredible distress, as it made me believe I would be unable to visit the US, or travel through it, and is something I feel unable to ever forgive.
I even spent money to get legal advice from a world renowned Jewish group in NYC, who felt that I had absolutaly nothing to defend.I really see no point in having an expert explain to me what ever it is Lou wants explained to me.
I am starting to feel very harrassed by Lou.
Nikki
ps - how can I ask someone not to post to me, when I am unable to post to them??
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 10:49:25
In reply to Lou's response to Dr. Hsiung » Dr. Bob, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 9:40:44
Dr. Hsiung,
Another reason that I am requesting that you allow me to invite a representative to write here from a jewish advocacy group is because of I am not permitted to post more that 3 consecutive posts and I feel that a guest expert could be exempted from that rule from the beginning, or I do not feel that I could get someone to be a guest expert here with telling them that rule applied to them also.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 11:26:58
In reply to Re: guest experts, posted by Dr. Bob on October 26, 2004, at 9:30:07
Dr. Hsiung,
One thing that I would like an expert to explaine her in relation to antisemitism is that modersn antisemitism is different from proto-nazi antisemitism. Proto-nazi antisemitism was about jews as a social and cultural hate. Modern antisemitism has other basis such as being based on race. The nazis killed jews if their reletives were jewish, even if they themselves had converted to christianity.
I am offering here for one to read very hatefull antisemitic document written by Martin Luther in 1543. As one reads it, I do not think that they can avoid seeing how Hitler carried this writing out and how jews are portreyed by him. This document is one of thos ethat set the stage for the Nazi Holocaust. As a jew, I feel that it is my responsibility to use all of my efforts to counteract anything that has the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings . The expert on antisemitism could go into this in more detail if I was allowed to have one post here.
Lou Pilder
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html
Lou Pilder
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 11:54:46
In reply to Re: please be civil » NikkiT2, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2004, at 8:38:38
Dr. Hsiung,
I am requesting that you make a determination as to the acceptability or not of the following in relation to the guidlines of the forum.
In post 407422, the poster write, [...my comment was aimed at Lou...]
There is another type of statement that has the potential to be hurtfull to jewish people. It is not like a statement that is overt in calling someone something that is anti semitic, but has the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings to a jew, like myself. For instance, one could start a converstion about how they like Hitler's ideas in group of people knowing that a jew is present. This is another thing that I would like my expert to post about.
You wrote in one of my previous objections to a post [...having the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings...] by writing that you did not think it was antisemitic. I am only asking you hear to make a determination as to if these statements in question that I am requesting for you to make a determination about [has the {potential} to arrouse antisemitic feelings], not that they themselves are antisemitic, but they could be.
Lou Pilder
Posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 13:57:05
In reply to Lou's request to Dr. Hsiung, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 11:54:46
I kind of hate to jump into this fray. But Lou, you really confused me with your last post. I'm stuck in two places:
1) I also never saw anything antisemitic about Nikki's original post, and I've been hoping that you might explain exactly what part of what she said you are objecting to.
2) I'm not able to understand what type of statement might not be antisemitic itself, but might arouse antisemitic feelings. Could you give an example? Maybe using some issue other than antisemitism, if you don't want to give examples of antisemitic thinking.
Finally, while I appreciate your desire to do everything possible to fight antisemitism, and I support you in that effort, I think that there can come a point where that fight itself can take a form that oppresses other people in a similar way to what you're concerned about fighting. So, then, I would think that you would be netting a negative outcome. In my opinion, you're getting mighty close to that line here. Just something to consider, while maintaining your vigilance against a certainly very serious problem.
pegasus
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 14:09:41
In reply to Re: Lou's request to Dr. Hsiung » Lou Pilder, posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 13:57:05
pegasus,
You wrote,[... I never saw anything antisemitic about ...(the ) original post...].
Does the {original) post involve [... antisemitic...jewish great aunt...], ?
I could respond accordingly if you could clarify that.
You wrote, [...what ...statement...could arrouse antisemitic feelings... and not be antisemitic?...]
There are many examples that I could post here, but I think that that could be better handled by my invited expert . I could answere your question, but I believe that I would need more than 3 consecutive posts to do so here.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 14:22:56
In reply to Lou's response to pegasus » pegasus, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 14:09:41
pegasus,
I am not saying that these statements are antisemitic, but that they have the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings. These consists of more than one type. One type could have the [potential] to arrouse antisemitic feelings to a group. Another could have the[potential] to arrouse antisemitic feelings to a jew. I would need my expert to explaine this better than I could, although I feel that I could if I was not restrained by the 3-post rule.
What would you think if a poster here posted a link to the a web site that had statements that had the potential to arrouse antisemitic feelings? Or a bible veres that had the same potential?Do you think that it could be acceptable here to post such? Some examples could be, [..Isreal us responsible for the war in Iraq..] or, [... the jews are the crucifir\eres of Christ..], or, [...anyone that honors any other God besides Jesus is not saved...].
Lou
Posted by fayeroe on October 26, 2004, at 14:53:20
In reply to Lou's response to pegasus-B, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 14:22:56
....I really hate to enter into this fray. But I feel that taking a post out of someone's very emotional pain and using it to make a point (about something that I doubt was even considered, much less written with the intent to hurt anyone else) is a bit beyond the pale. I feel that I had to address this because I know that the person whose post has been dissected is very hurt and upset about this. Perhaps it might be easier, all around, if we considered the intent of the post before we take issue with it. The majority of the people who post here are seeking relief and support from something that is causing him or her pain...and naturally it's terribly upsetting when a very personal post is scrutinized so publicly on this board. I'm very, very sorry that this has happened.
Posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 15:26:00
In reply to Lou's response to pegasus-B, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 14:22:56
OK, I get it. That makes sense. If a person posts, say, a URL to a site with antisemitic content, I can see that that would be pretty bad.
Thanks for clarifying that.
pegasus
Posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 15:35:21
In reply to Lou's response to pegasus » pegasus, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 14:09:41
Hi Lou,
You wrote:
" You wrote,[... I never saw anything antisemitic about ...(the ) original post...].
Does the {original) post involve [... antisemitic...jewish great aunt...], ?
I could respond accordingly if you could clarify that."I'm not following your syntax. I'm not sure what you want me to clarify, or what a jewish great aunt has to do with it. The post in which I couldn't find anything antisemitic, that you asked Dr. Bob to review in the first post in this thread, is:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/2000/20040626/msgs/403804.html
As far as I can see in this thread, you never clarified what you found objectionable about this post.
pegasus
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 15:39:35
In reply to Re: Lou's response to pegasus-B » Lou Pilder, posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 15:26:00
pegasus,
You wrote, [...posts a URL that had antisemitic content..., that would be pretty bad...].
Thank you for pointing that out. You see, by pointing that out, I believe that you see the crux of this in some way and could have the potential for you to appreciate some of the other aspects of this discussion in relation to my point of view and to my feelings.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 15:52:10
In reply to Re: Lou's response to pegasus » Lou Pilder, posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 15:35:21
pegasus,
You have identified the post that I had requested for you to do. You see, there are many posts involved here and the one you identified had to do with [...advocating a way to harm yourself or others...] which the poster posted about suicide and [...taking tablets to do it..] and I had asked for a clarification if that statement was acceptable inrelation to the guidlines here for the FAQ writes about that. The other part of that post involved asking for a determination on language that could be offensive to others and was asking for a determination on several phrases used because posters here have been evicted for words about the human anatomy that could be similar to the ones in the post in question and wanted to know if the particular word was or was not endorsed to be used here in the context as it was posted or not.
The other posts do not, I repeat, involve{what is antisemitic}. They involve statements {that have the potential, IMO, to arrouse antisemitic feelings...] and you have posted that you see the crux in this in that one case that you wrote about to me.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 16:03:01
In reply to Dissecting posts for dissection's sake~~~~, posted by fayeroe on October 26, 2004, at 14:53:20
fayeroe,
Please do not post to me
Lou
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20041012/msgs/407515.html
Posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 16:36:20
In reply to Re: Lou's response to pegasus » pegasus, posted by Lou Pilder on October 26, 2004, at 15:52:10
OK, so then, you are saying that you pointed out the original post that you wanted reviewed because you wanted to know whether the language used was acceptable. And you also wanted to know whether it was ok to mention specific ways of killing oneself, as that post did.
And as far as I can see, Dr. Bob never did make an assessment of those issues.
Just making sure I've got it.
pegasus
Posted by Noa on October 26, 2004, at 18:14:55
In reply to Re: Lou's response to pegasus » Lou Pilder, posted by pegasus on October 26, 2004, at 16:36:20
I am still trying to understand what has happened.
I'm still very confused about how the matter of antisemitism came into the discussion, or how Nikki's husband's great aunt's ethnicity was even brought up, or what it would have to do with this thread at all. I don't see that anywhere in these posts, and I certainly do not see anything antisemitic in the post that Lou originally requested to be reviewed (nor was there a link in that post to any website).
Also, I think some of the conflict could have been avoided in the first place if the request for determination might have said specifically something along the lines of, "although I recognize that these were written by the poster when she was in great distress, I would like to clarify whether the reference to the pills is appropriate for the board, and to clarify whether some of the language is allowable."
But I really do not see how anitsemitism came into the picture in this instance. I am Jewish and I am someone who is very alert to antisemitism and in fact have spoken up about it on this board in the past when I felt it did arise. But I can't find it in the post in question.
Posted by Noa on October 26, 2004, at 18:50:42
In reply to Re: Lou's response to pegasus, posted by Noa on October 26, 2004, at 18:14:55
OK, to answer part of my own question...I found the reference in this thread to antisemitism and the great aunt. Here is my understanding of this:
When Lou posted a request for review of Nikki's post, he did not specify what aspect of the post was potentially a problem.
Nikki, having posted the post in an episode of great distress, felt targetted by Lou's request for determination about her post, and, I believe really did not have any idea what about her post could have been a problem for Lou.
Nikki's reaction was to post a sarcastic remark about what could possibly have been the problem with her post. This remark refers to previous interactions (before the last block) when Lou had accused Nikki of something antisemitic, (and apparently threatened legal action) that had prompted her to seriously research whether she had posted anything offensive (she learned from the organization she consulted that there hadn't been anything in her post that she would need to defend).
In response to Nikki's sarcastic reaction, Lou seems to have re-raised the issue of antisemitism, although there seems to be nothing antisemitic in her recent post.
Nikki clarified that her comment was directed at Lou individually only.
Lou seems to have percieved that Nikki's directing the remark at him is somehow antisemitic and is now requesting a guest expert on antisemitism.
My opinion: I don't see antisemitism in Nikki's comment. I only see sarcasm. I think a lot of this could have been avoided if Lou had been more specific about what aspects of the post had been questionable (he has since clarified that it was certain 'salty' words as well as reference to taking pills).
A second point where the escalation in the conflict might have been avoided is for Nikki to have refrained from making the sarcastic remark, although I understand the feelings behind it and why she was so hurt and angry.
My personal preference would have been that Lou show some acknowledgement that Nikki had written the original post in pain, because the effect, in my opinion, was that Nikki felt as though she were kicked while she was down and already injured.
I personally do not see a need to bring in an expert on antisemitism at this point. FWIW, if there ever were the need, I'd support it, but would NOT support bringing someone from the JDL (Jewish Defense League) which I personally beleive (and I acknowledge that others may have a differing view than mine) is a group with extremist tendencies. The ADL, on the other hand, (Anti-Defamation League) is a group I would feel comfortable with. But at this point in time, I don't see the need because I do not see evidence at this point of a problem with antisemitism on this board.
Posted by Jai Narayan on October 26, 2004, at 19:52:49
In reply to Re: Trying to get some clarity, posted by Noa on October 26, 2004, at 18:50:42
I am thankful for this clearly stated comment. thank you for this Noa, I know it took time to articulate.
I hope that Nikki is doing alright.
I too was worried about her and this difficult post.
why does it have to be so hard?
this whole process seems so oppressive in and of itself.
I send you love and supportive energy Noa and Kikki.
Remember you are not alone in this. We are all listening.
the whole world is listening....
Jai
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