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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 74. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chicklet on October 6, 2003, at 13:19:32
Hey Dr. Bob. I know that this is complicated but maybe it would be easier if you could just weigh in in a separate post instead of responding to our individual posts...?
I'm still confused about your position in this situation. Can you tell us why you allowed K to post under an assumed name? People (who haven't been deceiving anyone) get banned when they post under another name...I just don't understand why this was acceptable.So many on this board were hurt 6 months ago or whenever it was. I think it would help if you addressed the whole situation. it might clear things up a bit.
But frankly it probably won't change much because i think a lot of the damage has been done.
Do you remember all of this? I had even forgotten. And see, that was good. I stayed out of all of it then. but now, well I guess I feel protective of the people that could get hurt again. and Again.
Forget the curse word business for now. In the grand scheme it's not a huge thing. I think we can put off addressing that until the situation with Kristen/Leaping Tall/Gallkeepinon is taken care of.
Please explain to us why you allowed this.
I think it might help if the new posters understood too. Because we older ones just sound like we're ticked off.
And so many of K's posts have been deleted because they were so hurtful. So you really can't do a complete search. You made the decision to delete those posts. But now more unrest commences again and it's ok because her wording *appears* to be that of a regretful, kind, well-meaning poster?It was BAD- do you remember?
And in light of Sar it was even harder and more cruel...
Thanks, Karen
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 14:23:07
In reply to Hi Bob- can we chat?, posted by Chicklet on October 6, 2003, at 13:19:32
Dr. Bob, perhaps you would like to explain your reasoning. You know (from previous admin posts) that many of us have negative feelings about posting to people as strangers when they know us from prior contact. I certainly understand that people feel the need to start over again. But perhaps you also understand that it is not a good feeling for us. Here are people who we have a relationship with, good or bad, and they know it but we don't. Their posts to us probably reflect their prior interactions with us, but we don't have the courtesy of being on an equal playing field.
Quite apart from this current situation, I thought you discouraged that sort of thing. And I feel betrayed that you collaborated with it, instead of taking up your customary stance. What if the poster who kept coming back, and who made rude references to me and about eating my dogs and other similar things were to contact you about coming back as someone else, a new poster. Here would be someone who, from the posts I'm referring to, you could reasonably assume doesn't like me overly much (is that civil enough?). And I'd be responding to them as if they didn't feel that way about me. And they'd know and I wouldn't. And you would have been helping them along with that. I haven't been posting for the last few days because, frankly, I think you did a disservice to many posters by encouraging this.
I'm not speaking directly to this situation, because the only thing Kristen ever did to me was to ask me if I were sleeping with you. If she were genuinely repentant, expressed remorse, and asked for forgiveness, I would gladly forgive her for that. I assume you have too. In fact, the idea is so patently absurd, that I don't even really need an apology. It's forgiven on general principles.
I don't know what the extent of the offenses against others were, because the majority of them took place in private communications and on another board. And I have been wrestling with the entire question this weekend without coming to a conclusion, because I don't really have the information necessary. So my disappointment with you has nothing directly to do with this situation, but everything to do with the principle involved.
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 14:37:04
In reply to Re: Hi Bob- can we chat?, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 14:23:07
Dr. Bob. Just an example.
Poster Fred just arrived on the board. Unknown to me, Poster Fred is really Poster George. My previous relationship with Poster George has been less than stellar. (Just using these names from Harry Potter, so any resemblence to real posters is purely coincidental). Poster Fred receives my welcome and subsequent replies with silence or icy coldness. If I didn't know it was really George, I'd feel pretty hurt and upset and confused about what I had done wrong.
I know this is going to happen on the internet. But it's different when it has your official sanction. Don't ask me how, but it just is.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2003, at 16:12:34
In reply to Re: Hi Bob- can we chat? P.S., posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 14:37:04
> Can you tell us why you allowed K to post under an assumed name? People (who haven't been deceiving anyone) get banned when they post under another name...
Because I've considered it OK, in general, to assume a new name. And she wasn't posting under more than one name at the same time. And wasn't blocked any longer.
> So many on this board were hurt 6 months ago or whenever it was.
>
> KarenI know. Maybe this can be a healing process?
--
> You know (from previous admin posts) that many of us have negative feelings about posting to people as strangers when they know us from prior contact.
Right, I think the most recent thread is:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030808/msgs/254355.html
> I thought you discouraged that sort of thing. And I feel betrayed that you collaborated with it, instead of taking up your customary stance... I think you did a disservice to many posters by encouraging this.
Are you thinking I encouraged her to change names?
> What if the poster who kept coming back, and who made rude references to me and about eating my dogs and other similar things were to contact you about coming back as someone else, a new poster. Here would be someone who, from the posts I'm referring to, you could reasonably assume doesn't like me overly much (is that civil enough?). And I'd be responding to them as if they didn't feel that way about me. And they'd know and I wouldn't. And you would have been helping them along with that.
> I know this is going to happen on the internet. But it's different when it has your official sanction. Don't ask me how, but it just is.
Being contacted would constitute "helping them along"?
Part of this, you know, is trying to accept the things I cannot change. To accept and to deal with as well as possible. Does accepting count as sanctioning?
Also, I'm open to revising these policies, in case anyone has any suggestions...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 16:24:32
In reply to Re: starting over under a new name, posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2003, at 16:12:34
I guess that's true. We only know that you were contacted, not what you said. I've known of poster name changes that were not known board wide, and I haven't disclosed the new name yet I don't think of myself as giving approval. Probably because I both privately and publicly oppose the practice, and openly urge people to reveal their old identities.
So I'll ask you directly. Did you say that it was ok to start over in an encouraging way? Or did you just agree not to rat out the poster, admit that it wasn't against the rules, and suggest that they come clean?
And I'm in the air about changing the rules. I do see a very few cases where a change of identity without disclosure is appropriate. Namely in the case of safety. If Gracie was able to come back with a new name, I would certainly understand her not wanting to use the old one. And if she wasn't able to openly acknowledge the change, I couldn't fault her for that.
But perhaps there could be an official discouragement, if not an absolute (and probably unenforceable) rule about changing identities without disclosure, for reasons other than personal safety?
Posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 16:43:29
In reply to Re: starting over under a new name, posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2003, at 16:12:34
>
> Also, I'm open to revising these policies, in case anyone has any suggestions...
>
> BobDid you ever consider some kind of permanent block for cases where someone manages to stir up a whole lot of bad feelings among a lot of people, repeatedly, regardless of whether they manage to skirt the civility rules? Some people, whether they mean to or not, just seem to push a lot of buttons and create pain and chaos. If you look at the whole picture, could you judge some posters to be more of a group liability than an asset and act accordingly?
I know it would be harsh to kick someone out for good, but if you're serious about keeping Babble safe for the majority of posters, why not look at eliminating the ones that cause the most damage, instead of just uniformly sanctioning everyone for curse words and insults?
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 16:55:11
In reply to Re: OK, a suggestion. » Dr. Bob, posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 16:43:29
I dunno Tabitha. Under that set of guidelines I'd be kicked out of Sunday School class.
Posted by Chicklet on October 6, 2003, at 20:27:45
In reply to Re: Hi Bob- can we chat?, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 14:23:07
Dinah- once again you make many good pints. (Ok, i'm keeping that typo because it's funny). So have you ever brewed your own beer in your basement? :D
>>Here are people who we have a relationship with, good or bad, and they know it but we don't.
Ya, it's an honesty issue and it stinks. because yeah, it's the internet and we really don't know who's doing what. But it's making me defensive and surly because I really trust and admire many people here. And I believe that they are who they say they are. But there are others that are sort of spoiling the party for the rest of us. I understand that this is partly the nature of a board like this. But....
>>Kristen ever did to me was to ask me if I were sleeping with you.
!! eek- I don't remember that!
> I don't know what the extent of the offenses against others were, because the majority of them took place in private communications and on another board.
They were extensive. And really hurtful. Especially on Jay's board. it's a shame because he was just trying to provide another outlet for babblers.
>>but everything to do with the principle involved.
Yup.Take care dear Dinah
Posted by Chicklet on October 6, 2003, at 20:40:37
In reply to Re: starting over under a new name, posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2003, at 16:12:34
> > Can you tell us why you allowed K to post under an assumed name? People (who haven't been deceiving anyone) get banned when they post under another name...
>
> Because I've considered it OK, in general, to assume a new name. And she wasn't posting under more than one name at the same time. And wasn't blocked any longer.>>>>>yes, but you monitor the board pretty diligently. And you could see what was going down. Right? Why couldn't you put some sort of kibosh on it? You didn't.
> > So many on this board were hurt 6 months ago or whenever it was.
>> I know. Maybe this can be a healing process?>>>>>Excuse me? What??? That sounds as if you're trying to disregard what's happened. This is not about 'healing'. This is about changing some of the rules of the board and protecting people that come here solely for support. I don't need an experiment to teach me about the healing process. Really, I don't. Your answer just feels like a cop out to me.
>instead of taking up your customary stance...
>> Are you thinking I encouraged her to change names?
>>>>Doesn't matter. I assume of course, that you didn't. but you were privy to all of it. No we don't know for how long or for what purpose. but I feel that it was wrong of you.
> Being contacted would constitute "helping them along"?
>
>>Of course not! And that, I don't think, is what Dinah meant. Why won't you just be straight with us? Please?> Also, I'm open to revising these policies, in case anyone has any suggestions...
>>yeah I think we have suggestions
Karen
Posted by Chicklet on October 6, 2003, at 20:49:18
In reply to Re: OK, a suggestion. » Dr. Bob, posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 16:43:29
>lot of bad feelings among a lot of people, *****repeatedly*****, regardless of whether they manage to skirt the civility rules?
Yeah, repeatedly is right...it would be a good measure of the offense.
>could you judge some posters to be more of a group liability than an asset and act accordingly?
Makes good sense, Tabitha.
>why not look at eliminating the ones that cause the most damage, instead of just uniformly sanctioning everyone for curse words and insults?
Exxxactly. It's Bob's board. if it's designed for support, maybe he could step back and see that in some cases, things just spin out of control. And as he really DOES observe and respond to many of the posts, cutting out the rifraf would be safer, kinder and more comforting for the members that were threatened or hurt or whatever.
You are a wise woman. Even when you don't eat your veggies.
karen
Posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 23:57:17
In reply to Re: OK, a suggestion. » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on October 6, 2003, at 16:55:11
I can't imagine you being the pariah of your sunday school class. Launching debate and tenaciously hanging onto your beliefs, yes-- but pariah? Can't picture it.
Posted by Tabitha on October 7, 2003, at 0:38:39
In reply to Re: Chuckle » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 23:57:17
hmm... 'pariah' seems like a poor choice of words to me now. Seems to connote someone unfairly persecuted like Frankenstein's monster. I meant-- I can't imagine you leaving a trail of hurt feelings.
Posted by gabbix2 on October 7, 2003, at 1:30:56
In reply to Re: P.S. Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 7, 2003, at 0:38:39
*
Posted by Chicklet on October 7, 2003, at 1:57:26
In reply to Re: P.S. Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on October 7, 2003, at 1:30:56
tabitha- all I can say re: Dinah is that you have severely underestimated her powers. her evil. Her, her, her...well, you know- se just might not be the sweet Dinah we all thought she was. I hear she's posting under a different name too: SundaySchoolTrouble.
Look everyone!!!!! Gabbi's back!!!
But it's been so long since she's been allowed to post that all she seems to be able to post now is an asterisk...
*
It's a crying shame.Let's keep it administrative here, gang.
I got it- Gabbi seems to be having difficulty postin any more than an asterisk. Any ideas why?
I am going to pay for this sarcasm.
Soon enough.
Posted by Sabina on October 7, 2003, at 3:58:11
In reply to Re: P.S. Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on October 7, 2003, at 1:30:56
Posted by Chicklet on October 7, 2003, at 6:24:28
In reply to Re: Brevity is the soul of wit. ;) (nm) » gabbix2, posted by Sabina on October 7, 2003, at 3:58:11
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 7:36:27
In reply to Re: P.S. Dinah, posted by gabbix2 on October 7, 2003, at 1:30:56
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 7:37:50
In reply to Re: Chuckle » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 6, 2003, at 23:57:17
Posted by Chicklet on October 7, 2003, at 7:42:58
In reply to Re: Same thing :) (nm) » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 7:37:50
Have a good day, Dinah
*
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:48:16
In reply to Re: starting over under a new name, posted by Dr. Bob on October 6, 2003, at 16:12:34
Have changing names, without good reason and without notice on admin be against the rules. Ask anyone who you discover to have switched names to contact you by email. Find out if it is a safety issue, and if not, have the rules be that you will at least disclose that the fact that they are a new identity will be disclosed on Admin.
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 12:46:55
In reply to Re: Another proposal » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:48:16
Further clarification. We already have a rule discouraging a poster from posting under two names at once. If it happens, you post "please choose a name and stick with it". The new rule could be discouraging changing identities, with exceptions being allowable with administrative approval (that puts you on the hook too Dr. Bob). So if you discover that someone has changed names (and I know that you won't always know, but if you find out) you could post a generic "please email me about a problem with your registration". At that point, if administrative approval is not forthcoming, you could post a "Please inform others when changing posting names." You wouldn't actually have to rat anyone out, any more than you currently tell us the identity of people who are posting while blocked. We have to figure it out the old fashioned way, but dividing the block by two, and seeing who was currently blocked for that period.
I know it's a bit more trouble for you, but I bet it would make for a more welcoming place for genuine newcomers, and would leave the rest of us feeling less betrayed by you.
And it would be interesting to see what you would consider to be exceptions. Personal safety is clear. But what about "I said and did such hurtful things before that if anyone knew who I was, no one would talk to me."
Posted by Susan J on October 7, 2003, at 12:52:34
In reply to Hi Bob- can we chat?, posted by Chicklet on October 6, 2003, at 13:19:32
>>Does accepting count as sanctioning?
<<Yeah, I think so. Implicit sanctioning. But I was going to suggest the same thing Dinah did. If someone changes their name here on the board, could you require full disclosure of the name change?
From what to what.... how about setting up yet *another* board for the disclosures so people could check them easily? :-)
Posted by Tabitha on October 7, 2003, at 14:02:58
In reply to Re: Another proposal » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:48:16
it's nice when people disclose the change. Why not make it a requirement? It can't be good for the community to allow people to hide their past.
Posted by Sabina on October 7, 2003, at 14:04:57
In reply to Re: I second Dinah's suggestion, posted by Tabitha on October 7, 2003, at 14:02:58
Posted by galkeepinon on October 7, 2003, at 14:25:24
In reply to Re: Another proposal, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 12:46:55
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