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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mogger on January 5, 2014, at 23:33:11
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin, posted by linkadge on January 3, 2014, at 19:45:29
Countries that heavily incorporate turmeric into their diets would ingest far more than 1000 mg a day don't you think? Wondering if psychotopic medications were more effective and perhaps used at lower doses in areas that heavily use turmeric in their diet.
Posted by Chris O on January 9, 2014, at 19:30:39
In reply to Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin, posted by Mogger on January 2, 2014, at 17:18:18
Fascinating study, though I remember taking New Chapter's Tumeric supplement years ago without any noticeable effects. Maybe I'll give it a go again.
Chris
Posted by mogger on January 10, 2014, at 1:31:52
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin, posted by Chris O on January 9, 2014, at 19:30:39
There is a huge difference in absorption I believe with turmeric. The bioperine in some formulas enhance its absorption ten fold but bioperine can have interactions with meds. I agree a fascinating study. Any product New Chapter puts out is high quality I think.
Posted by sigismund on January 11, 2014, at 21:37:58
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 10, 2014, at 1:31:52
Then there's BCM, then soluble curcuminoids, or with phospatidylcholine type stuff.
Given the epidemiological evidence, perhaps plain turmeric cooked the Indian way (fried?) might be as good as plain curcumin.
Posted by Chris O on January 12, 2014, at 1:43:20
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 10, 2014, at 1:31:52
Mogger:
Any idea which tumeric/curcumin brand replicates the stuff that was used in this study?
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by mogger on January 12, 2014, at 9:56:29
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 12, 2014, at 1:43:20
Chris,
I unfortunately don't. I wonder if you can contact the researchers and see what they say?
Joseph
Posted by Chris O on January 12, 2014, at 18:50:36
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 12, 2014, at 9:56:29
Great suggestion. I'll try it.
Chris
Posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 13:10:04
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 12, 2014, at 18:50:36
This article from Dr. Michael Murray popped up in my email inbox this morning that I thought I would share. Seems it is a bio-available form of curcumin. Caveat though if you do try it be really careful for symptoms of serotonin syndrome and let your doctor know. Linkadge mentioned that he had some Serotonin Syndrome symptoms as did I when I tried Life Extension's bio-available curcumin with bioperine along with my meds. It is an interesting article.
mogger
http://doctormurray.com/?utm_source=Marketing+vs.+Science&utm_campaign=1%2F14&utm_medium=email
Posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 13:20:27
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 13:10:04
Mogger:
Thanks for that. Ajay Goel, one of the study conductors, did write back to me. He said he could only recommend BCM-95, an Indian-produced brand. I wonder if there is any connection between what appears to be an all Indian group of study conductors and the company that produces this supplement? Maybe I'll give Dr. Murray's brand a try. For the past week, I've been taking Gaia herbs form of turmeric. From what I've read though, to get clinical results with curcumin, you basically have to take several grams a day. One thing I did notice over the past week of taking the turmeric supplement: I had a trunk rash (probably fungal or bacterial) for the last 6 or so weeks. It didn't seem to be going anywhere. I've gotten it in the past when it's hot and I sweat a lot. Last year, I had to treat it with some form of cortisol rub on stuff. Over the past five days, the rash has almost disappeared. I'm not sure if there is a connection with the turmeric, but if so, I'm impressed. I'll check back in if anything else dramatic happens. Not expecting much.
Chris
Posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 13:24:44
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 13:20:27
Chris that is great man! Sounds like the anti inflammatory properties perhaps could be causing the rash to subside. Here is what I picked up from BCM 95's website which states how theirs is bio-available. Very interesting.
"Enhancing the bioavailability of curcumin by combining curcuminoids and essential oils of turmeric with Ar turmerone was developed by Arjuna Natural Extracts Ltd. The new formulation showed blood concentrations of free, unconjugated curcumin in micromolar concentrations about 7-9 times more bioavailable compared to regular curcumin. It is retained in significant amount in the blood upto 8 hours after oral dose which are required if any clinical benefit is to accrue from ingested curcumin, based on the results of preclinical studies.This product has been trade-named as BCM-95 (Biocurcumin). Since the higher bioavailability of curcumin from BCM-95 delivers significant levels of curcumin in vivo, we evaluated the detailed safety profile of BCM-95 aspects in various animal models".
Posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 13:56:18
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 13:24:44
Thanks! Not crazy about buying any supplements manufactured in India, China, or Mexico, though. Prefer that they come from a farm someplace in North America (Canada or US), with Good Manufacturing Practices certification. Even with that, I just don't trust much of anything. (I heard New Chapter was recently bought by Proctor and Gamble.) I'm just a paranoid little guy that can't get anything to work on my fr*gg*ng oh so dysfunctional brain.
Chris
Posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 13:58:07
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 13:56:18
I hear you Chris! Ever tried inositol 12 grams a day?
Posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 16:12:45
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 13:58:07
Mogger:
You know, about 9 years ago, I started an experiment with Inositol (using the Jarrow powder). I know that those studies from the late 1990s showed promising results at 12-18 grams. And the conditions for which Inositol in those studies was used do seem to match my symptoms--ruminating GAD, PTSD, with obsessive worrying tendencies. But I got scared because 12-18 grams is so much to take and I really need to know that what I am putting in my body is completely safe if I'm going to take five heaping teaspoons a day! Anyway, I definitely did not give Inositol at high doses a sufficient trial. Have you tried it? Did you notice anything positive? I'd be willing to take Inositol in high doses if I knew it was completely safe and the stuff I was putting in my body was free of contaminants.
Posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 16:42:46
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 16:12:45
Chris,
I have been taking 18 grams (3 tablespoons) of inositol for 7 years a day and it is very helpful. Motivation, energy, depression and anxiety has improved. It is taken from rice in jarrow's case from Japan. Swanson vitamins takes their inositol from soy. It is the first supplement other than high doses of EPA from fish oil that my doctor at UCLA put me on. Both jarrow and swanson are GMP and my doctor says he is comfortable with his patients taking it long term. I hear you about being concerned about contaminants but I trust both brands and I do believe that at a certain point one must just goffor it. We could be hit by a bus this evening so I think it is important to try and set aside these concerns and try it anyway. I get check ups 2 times a year and I am in good physical health. The benefits outweigh the costs.
Posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 17:01:02
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 16:42:46
Mogger:
Hey, thanks for that, man. That's awesome that it is working so well for you. Makes me really want to try it again. Need to find a brand I'm comfortable taking, I guess.
NOW Foods just wrote me back. Their Inositol country of origin is China. Yeah, well, that's not too promising for me. At least they told me the truth. And NOW Foods said they test it for contaminants in their "advanced in-house labs," but my eyes have seen too much to trust that. It's probably fine, but I just can't put any product into my body from the monstrosity that is the Chinese manufacturing industry.
As for Japan I know that this is just evidence of my paranoid, but what about radiation from the nuclear disaster there? Is that a concern with any of these supplements? Your doctor would probably say no, and it's also probably not of concern, but it still worries me.
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 19:13:50
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin?, posted by Chris O on January 15, 2014, at 17:01:02
They are not taking the inositol from rice near Fukushima as that is blocked off to farming. Actually Jarrow's inositol is now non GMO.
Posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 1:35:22
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 19:13:50
Mogger:
That's interesting to know. Can you tell me what you experienced with the Inositol? How does it affect you, specifically?
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 13:03:16
In reply to Re: Recent study on Prozac: Theracumin? » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 15, 2014, at 19:13:50
Mogger:
So, just out of curiosity, I wrote some of the companies producing Inositol yesterday to find out where they manufactured their product. From Swanson, I received this lovely reply (hey, at least they are honest!):
"Dear Valued Customer,
Thank you for contacting Swanson Health Products!
Upon speaking with one of our Products Specialists here at Swanson's they said that we do not know where it was made. Unfortunately, we are not always given the information of where our manufactor makes our products and this was one of those situations. We are sorry we do not have that information. Please let us know if you have any further questions!"Yes, that's right. Swanson does not know where its Inositol powder is made! Well, that's comforting! (And I'm pretty certain the person who wrote that reply is not a native English speaker.) Love being stuck between the hapless, "side-effect" filled pharmaceutical industry and the predatory, lawless "supplement" industry. Oh, isn't global capitalism grand!
Posted by mogger on January 16, 2014, at 13:22:54
In reply to This is why I am dubious of supplement companies.. » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 13:03:16
I hear you Chris! I respect your concerns and I don't mean disrespect but why are you so doubtful about all of these brands who practice GMP? Do you think this preoccupation could simply be a symptom of generalized anxiety?
Posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 15:34:45
In reply to Re: This is why I am dubious of supplement companies.. » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 16, 2014, at 13:22:54
Mogger:
Yes, it's probably a symptom of my GAD. I'd still like to know how Inositol affects you. And what you're treatment regimen has been, specifically, for how long, etc. Just curious. And what happens when you stop taking it.
It is troubling (beyond my GAD obsessions, I think) that some of these companies don't even know where their supplements are manufactured though, isn't it? Especially considering the absolutely minimal safety checks that are involved in places like China.
Posted by mogger on January 16, 2014, at 18:36:03
In reply to Re: This is why I am dubious of supplement companies.. » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 15:34:45
I don't agree (I know there are exceptions to the rule as we see on tv the horrific business practices some companies have in other countries not excluding the US) as I think that most reputable supplement companies have strict testing standards even if their bulk source is from another country. There are endless "what ifs" as we both know in GAD and OCD so I would encourage you to try to work through the worry about sourcing and quality of something most likely is absolutely fine and let a supplement hopefully like inositol help you.
In answer to your question I used to have such guilt and rumination before I tried inositol. It helped diminish my guilt and panic as well as it gave/gives me energy to do get out there and exercise. It's AD effects are powerful however it is an augmenter to my meds so taking it alone for me would not siffice. I won't stop taking it until the day I die as it is useful. Start up side effects were a bit of a cloudy and agitated feeling for a few weeks while I built up to the dose (1 tablespoon a week) but then it was fine.
Posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 18:52:41
In reply to Re: This is why I am dubious of supplement companies.. » Chris O, posted by mogger on January 16, 2014, at 18:36:03
Mogger:
That's great feedback, regarding both my GAD ruminating and your Inositol experience! So, just curious, 1 Tablespoon per week--is that the 12-18 grams per day recommended dosage from those late 1990s studies? It sounds like less than.
Interestingly, your symptoms (if I am reading them right) sound similar to mine. I am basically exhausted all the time, even though I should be in good physical health. I feel like this brain chemistry issue just saps all of my energy. During exercise, it is particularly excruciating; I feel a great deal of pain when I exercise. My GAD and depression and PTSD actually prevent me from exercising more easily and fully, I think.
I also have been using a CPAP machine for sleep apnea for the past year and a half. I think my sleep apnea is heavily tied into my anxiety. It seems that when I try to rest at night, something "kicks in" and jolts me up many times (cortisol?). The sleep doctor says I also have airway closure beyond just anxiety-induced awakenings (even though I'm not overweight), even when my sleep apnea reading on the CPAP is close to zero (especially when it's close to zero, actually), I am more exhausted than ever before, and it feels like I have barely slept. So, I'm still working through that. It feels like I haven't slept for more than an hour at a time for 20+ years.
Anyway, maybe I will give Inositol a better trial. I just have to work through my stuff.
Posted by mogger on January 16, 2014, at 19:02:15
In reply to Thanks, Mogger! » mogger, posted by Chris O on January 16, 2014, at 18:52:41
Sorry to hear that must be so difficult with sleep apnea. That is a lot to cope with and it sounds as if you are doing it as best you can which is great.
The 12 grams of inositol is the dose for panic and depression and 18 grams is the dose for OCD. Both are the only clinically studied doses and both are used by UCLA successfully. 18 grams is three tablespoons a day (one in morning, one at lunch and one at dinner) and 12 grams is two tablespoons. A good supplement!
Posted by GavinoFelix on January 19, 2014, at 21:28:14
In reply to Recent study on Prozac augmented with curcumin, posted by Mogger on January 2, 2014, at 17:18:18
In case anyone's still following this...
In another forum I frequent, this study came up as well: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/65383-new-study-curcumin-as-treatment-for-major-depression/
However, statistically, this study doesn't really have anything to say w/r/t curcumin. To quote another poster on above thread:
"The real problem is that none of the results are statistically significant. With those giant P values, I don't see how they got it published. How are we to distinguish the results from random noise?"
Statistically, the curcumin/turmeric wasn't shown to do anything. Not to discourage anyone (in fact I still take curcumin), but this is just another example of why those of us who choose to do our own 'research' on-line need to be extra careful. Statistics is complicated (at least for me).
p.s. Things to consider: curcumin has incredibly poor bio-availability when ingested orally (does this remind anyone of the other 'miracle supplement', resveratrol?). The whole 'curcumin-phytosome' thing attempts to deal with this by binding it to phosphatidyl choline (it's better absorbed when with a fat). Or, you could do what human beings figured out thousands of years ago and eat turmeric in coconut milk-based curries.
Also, beware of piperine (aka "Bioperine"). Among other mechanisms, it works by inhibiting the CYP3A4 enzyme - which has more than a few psych meds in its substrate. So, although I'm sure piperine does increase the absorption of curcumin, it likely messes with the metabolism of a lot of other medications out there. Which means,I would steer clear of any product out there with 'Bioperine'.
Posted by mogger on January 19, 2014, at 21:32:48
In reply to Re-appraisal of Study and Stuff, posted by GavinoFelix on January 19, 2014, at 21:28:14
Bioperine does have interactions for sure I felt them. I hear what you are saying but through empirical evidence I certainly felt a powerful effect of curcumin taken in other forms. Powerful.
This is the end of the thread.
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