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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:16
In reply to Re: Lou's response-Ihnphantacyde, posted by linkadge on January 10, 2014, at 17:56:23
> The only two medications that have been proven to reduce the risk of suicide are clozapine (an antipsychotic) and lithium.
>
> Ask your doctor about both. The combination can work very well for schizoaffective.
>
>
>
> LinkadgeFriends,
It is written here that clozaril is a drug proven to reduce the risk of suicide...
Let us reason together here. First, how is it been proven that Clozaril has been proven to reduce the risk of suicide? Do you know?
What happened was that there was a study in suicide prevention between Clozaril and another drug and there were less attempts , of the suicide group, hospitalizations and interventions with those taking Clozaril. Does that prove that Clozaril is a proven treatment for suicide prevention? If you ranked all the drugs and the number of suicides, one drug would be the last and one would be the first. That does not prove that the drug is a causation to anything. Now if there were 1000 studies, that may be different if all the studies showed one drug correlated with the fewest suicides.
Clozaril can cause death by agranulocytosis and by heart attack and other adverse effects. If you think that Clozaril is an anti suicide pill, which means that one in suicidal thinking can take the drug and the suicidal thinking will vanish, be advised that the study did not show that and if it was an anti suicide pill, the U.S. army would not be trying to produce one.
Mothers, do not be deceived. KNow all the facts before you drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor.
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/clozaril/death
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:16
In reply to Lou's response- » linkadge, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:25:09
Clozaril from what I saw when I was charge RN in psych was a miracle med for those that hadn't responded well to other meds. Was then used for schizophrenia. Frequent blood test for white count assures the patient and family that the medicine is not harming the patient. Pick and choice the advise given. But best wishes to you and your Son. So relieved he is okay. Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:17
In reply to Lou's response- » linkadge, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:25:09
> > The only two medications that have been proven to reduce the risk of suicide are clozapine (an antipsychotic) and lithium.
> >
> > Ask your doctor about both. The combination can work very well for schizoaffective.
> >
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Friends,
> It is written here that clozaril is a drug proven to reduce the risk of suicide...
> Let us reason together here. First, how is it been proven that Clozaril has been proven to reduce the risk of suicide? Do you know?
> What happened was that there was a study in suicide prevention between Clozaril and another drug and there were less attempts , of the suicide group, hospitalizations and interventions with those taking Clozaril. Does that prove that Clozaril is a proven treatment for suicide prevention? If you ranked all the drugs and the number of suicides, one drug would be the last and one would be the first. That does not prove that the drug is a causation to anything. Now if there were 1000 studies, that may be different if all the studies showed one drug correlated with the fewest suicides.
> Clozaril can cause death by agranulocytosis and by heart attack and other adverse effects. If you think that Clozaril is an anti suicide pill, which means that one in suicidal thinking can take the drug and the suicidal thinking will vanish, be advised that the study did not show that and if it was an anti suicide pill, the U.S. army would not be trying to produce one.
> Mothers, do not be deceived. KNow all the facts before you drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor.
> Lou
> http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/clozaril/deathFriends,
Let us reason together. There is a generally agreed statistic that about 7 1/2 % of the people that take Clozaril have death. Suppose there was a weight loss drug and 7 1/2 % of the people that took it died. Would they take the drug off the market? And what if that drug caused death by agranulocytosis or heart failure?
Now suppose there was a frozen food called, let's say, Pappa Lou's Famous Meatballs and Pasta. And let's suppose out of every 1000 people that ate Lou's meatballs and pasta, 75 of them died. Would that pasta be allowed to be sold?
Lou
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:17
In reply to Lou's response-pahapahlu, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:54:55
Lou If I died from eating one of your dinners someone would sue. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:17
In reply to Lou's response-pahapahlu, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:54:55
I don't know how productive it is to reason together (exercise logic) without facts.
Clozapine was approved by the FDA in 2002 to treat suicidality.
"Treatments should be similarly plausible, even if unproved, following the precedent of the InterSePT trial of clozapine versus olanzapine for suicidal behavior in schizophrenia, which was a major source of support for the FDA approval of clozapine to reduce suicide risk in 2003the first treatment of any kind to receive such approval."
The usefulness of lithium to reduce suicide is indisputable.
"Many studies consistently support the impression that risks of suicide and of life-threatening attempts are far lower during treatment with lithium"
"Some researchers have suggested that lithium may have specific effects against suicide that are independent of mood-stabilizing actions."
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/can-suicide-be-prevented
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2014, at 4:58:05
In reply to Clozapine and lilthium reduce suicidaltity » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:17
> I don't know how productive it is to reason together (exercise logic) without facts.
>
> Clozapine was approved by the FDA in 2002 to treat suicidality.
>
> "Treatments should be similarly plausible, even if unproved, following the precedent of the InterSePT trial of clozapine versus olanzapine for suicidal behavior in schizophrenia, which was a major source of support for the FDA approval of clozapine to reduce suicide risk in 2003the first treatment of any kind to receive such approval."
>
> The usefulness of lithium to reduce suicide is indisputable.
>
> "Many studies consistently support the impression that risks of suicide and of life-threatening attempts are far lower during treatment with lithium"
>
> "Some researchers have suggested that lithium may have specific effects against suicide that are independent of mood-stabilizing actions."
>
> http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/can-suicide-be-prevented
>
>
> - ScottFriends,
Let us reason together. Does the article cited by Scott here say that Clozaril is an anti suicide drug? If you read the entire article, there are many statements in it that question the matter.
I want readers here to know all of the facts before they drug their children in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor. Let us look at this fact that concerning how this drug finds it's way into the bodies and minds of human beings.
Lou
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-11-16/news/ct-met-reinstein-lawsuit-20121116_1_reinstein-clozapine-patients
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2014, at 5:14:12
In reply to Re: Lou's response-pahapahlu » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:17
> Lou If I died from eating one of your dinners someone would sue. Phillipa
Phillipa,
You wrote about people suing for that a product killed someone.
And Clozaril is one of those products where there are ongoing lawsuits for deaths and life-ruining conditions as a result of being given the drug.
Lou
http://www.the-injury-lawyer-directory.com/clozapine.html
Posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 5:59:30
In reply to Lou's response- » linkadge, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:16
Lou,
Anybody can write anything. And then simply because it is written and has an appearance of being authentic, it is somehow made to seem true.
A generalized statement like that....xyz drug prevents suicides...yeah, I hear ya, that statement can be discredited in a critical review pretty easily.
What prevents suicides is getting the suspect to the hospital pronto.
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 6:54:11
In reply to Re: Lou's response-, posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 5:59:30
> Lou,
>
> Anybody can write anything. And then simply because it is written and has an appearance of being authentic, it is somehow made to seem true.Irony.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 7:04:24
In reply to Lou's response-prnzfdhth » SLS, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2014, at 4:58:05
Mr. Pilder. With all due respect, I urge you to reread my post with regard to clozapine and its proven ability to reduce the risk of suicide.
CLOZAPINE WAS APPROVED BY THE FDA IN 2003 TO TREAT SUICIDALITY.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/can-suicide-be-prevented
"Treatments should be similarly plausible, even if unproved, following the precedent of the InterSePT trial of clozapine versus olanzapine for suicidal behavior in schizophrenia, which was a major source of support for the FDA approval of clozapine to reduce suicide risk in 2003the first treatment of any kind to receive such approval."
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 11, 2014, at 9:16:03
In reply to Lou's response-klozcilz » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on January 11, 2014, at 5:14:12
I was merely lightly joking that you might be introducing a new product line of food. You asked what would happen if your meatballs were responsible for a death. Since it's not med related. It was a poor response on my part. So I redact it. Phillipa
Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 11, 2014, at 9:17:45
In reply to Lou's response- » linkadge, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 23:24:16
Posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 10:12:18
In reply to Re: Lou's response- » bleauberry, posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 6:54:11
> > Lou,
> >
> > Anybody can write anything. And then simply because it is written and has an appearance of being authentic, it is somehow made to seem true.
>
> Irony.
>
>
> - ScottNot irony. Trust but verify. Most of what you have panned out has fallen on its face as often as what I have, and the next guy, and the next.
Ideas. Hope. New directions. We need those. Because there is still too much suffering and not enough success in ending it.
BUT...we cannot take anything at face value, not even from a scientist. We have to dig ourselves and make our own decisions.
What someone else says is merely a starting point. It can be either refuted or confirmed by the patient in question. It's their body, their life, and their responsibility to do what they feel is best for them.
But we need ideas to get that started.
Why do we need ideas? Because it seems apparent we are nowhere close to having answers as things currently are. There is more wisdom out there for us to find and use. Whatever is in the books right now, is but a smidgen of what is not yet in the books.
In your chosen lifestyle, science is where you go to get your ideas. Cool. That works. In my chosen lifestyle, I go to the streets figuratively speaking, for ideas. I don't want to know, for example, the limited box of how CDC treats lyme as the only thing in my toolbox. No. I want to know, what do other lyme patients who have been failed by CDC have to say? What is not mentioned in medical books but is widely successful in actual practice? That's where I go for ideas.
My best stuff has come from my actual MD physicians that have worked on me. Massive gold treasure of wisdom in those guys, stuff that isn't generally found in establishment offices or books. But their ideas carry extra weight for me, because they are working in real time with real people, despite no satisfactory explanation in the medical world of why. The pioneering stuff of today, is on the front page of a science journal 10 years from now. I aint waiting! It's already here. I've seen it with my own eyes. I try to share what I have seen because it can be glorious to those who receive it. But some don't want it for whatever reason. That's fine. Ideas and opinions and observations can be embraced or disposed as anyone sees fit in their own life.
One of the MDs where I get some of the best stuff from, is so friggin good and has so much success with his patients, you don't want to see him! Why? Because the waiting list to get your first appointment with him is 9 months! That is one good doctor. Every time you slam my ideas, you are actually slamming him. I think you really should give him the respect he has earned, set your rejections aside for a moment, and open the eyes to more healing strategies.
Medicine, they try to make it a science. I believe that is dangerous for the patient. As in my case. Half my life gone into a dark depression because someone didn't get the diagnosis right. I do not see it as a science. It is an art. HEALING ART. Science helps shape the art, but science alone has too many holes and lag time. Too much suffering.
We not only need ideas and opinions, but we need ones that are actually working on the streets of america. Those are what I bring here. But because it is outside the box of typical ways of thinking at pbabble, it could be viewed as bogus, I understand that, it's part of the game, nothing new, even the guy who first claimed ulcers were bacteria not stress was ridiculed to no end.
My views anyway. Glad to share. If you don't agree, there is a trash can nearby, toss it. No ego here whatsoever. Take an idea and use it to your benefit, cool. Take an idea and decide it's not for you, cool. The point is.....ideas to work with.
Ideas. Opinions. Hope. Faith. Confirm. Verify. Support. Educate.
All good stuff and I see no irony in there unless someone purposely imposes it out of rejection.
Posted by linkadge on January 12, 2014, at 8:02:08
In reply to Re: Lou's response- » SLS, posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 10:12:18
With regular blood work, clozapine is generally a safe drug.
If I were schizoaffective, I would ask for a clozapine / lithium combination.
Posted by SLS on January 12, 2014, at 8:11:36
In reply to Re: Lou's response-, posted by linkadge on January 12, 2014, at 8:02:08
> With regular blood work, clozapine is generally a safe drug.
>
>
>
> If I were schizoaffective, I would ask for a clozapine / lithium combination.Nice. Great idea. I wish I had thought of it. Your proposed treatment probably would have helped this girl I know who has schizoaffective disorder - bipolar type. Her response to risperidone was inadequate, and she continued to report having *visual* hallucinations. Interestingly, Xanax kept her out of trouble.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 12, 2014, at 21:31:45
In reply to Schizoaffective Disorder - Clozapine + lithium » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 12, 2014, at 8:11:36
Clozapine worked when no other med did. This was in personal experience when med was new. But I witnessed at least 4 frequent flyers as they were referred to as their meds didn't work. I watched them sleep and eventually feel good, leave, and stop in to visit. Albeit closed ward. But we could me them to talk at the doors. Was like magic. Phillipa
Posted by linkadge on January 12, 2014, at 23:24:49
In reply to Lou's response- » linkadge, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:25:09
Hi Lou,
You are right. Nothing is 100% conclusive.
However, there has been more than one study done on both lithium and clozapine.
It compares the rates of suicide among schizophrenic and bipolar patients treated with lithium / clozapine vs. treatment with other mood stabilizers and antipsychotics. The conclusions were that patients on lithium or clozapine have a statistically significant reduction in suicide compared with patients on alternatives like Depakote, tegretol, zyprexa etc.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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