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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Iansf on December 10, 2013, at 16:17:31
According to the following article, research shows treating the immune system may help improve mental disorders:
http://www.naturalnews.com/043191_mental_health_immune_system_treatment.html
Posted by Tomatheus on December 10, 2013, at 19:41:54
In reply to Treating Depression via the Immune System, posted by Iansf on December 10, 2013, at 16:17:31
Iansf,
Thanks for posting this. I think that my immune system may be overactive in a sense, as evidenced by the fact that my white blood cell count has been found to be elevated several times since my first psychiatric hospitalization back in February 2007. I'd be interested in hearing about any treatments that might effectively treat fatigue and hypersomnia (and other symptoms and disorders) by targeting the immune system. Unfortunately, the article that you posted only seemed to say what treatments might *not* be helpful (antibiotics) instead of saying what treatments might be helpful, other than by vaguely saying that natural treatments would be better. Still, though, I liked the article overall, and I'm glad that you posted it here.
Tomatheus
Posted by Jeroen on December 11, 2013, at 12:35:04
In reply to Re: Treating Depression via the Immune System, posted by Tomatheus on December 10, 2013, at 19:41:54
he knows more
Posted by Tomatheus on December 11, 2013, at 13:11:10
In reply to ask bleauberry, posted by Jeroen on December 11, 2013, at 12:35:04
Thanks, Jeroen. Maybe I'll seek Bleauberry's opinion on the matter. The only thing is that I think that I think my fatigue and hypersomnia were most likely brought on by prolonged partial sleep deprivation, which preceded my illness and may have had some effect on my immune system. There's actually some research showing that sleep deprivation and recovery from sleep deprivation can increase white blood cells, but I'm not sure how conclusive the research is, nor am I sure how lasting the elevations in white blood cells can be. My guess would be that Bleauberry would be looking at infections as the culprit, which might conceivably be the case with me, but I tend to think that my symptoms are more related to the prolonged partial sleep deprivation that preceded my illness. I did at one point try a prescribed antibiotic for my symptoms, and it didn't seem to have any effect, but I suppose that there could be differences between antibiotics as far as their effects are concerned.
Tomatheus
Posted by bleauberry on December 12, 2013, at 15:21:20
In reply to Treating Depression via the Immune System, posted by Iansf on December 10, 2013, at 16:17:31
That article appears accurate to me. Based on my own personal experiences, it is loaded with good stuff.
Here is something to add to it:
I have had two MDs who specialize in lyme patients. Both of them said that a high majority (as high as 90%) of psychiatric patients actually have lyme or a lyme-like infection, and that some of their lyme patients presented with depression as their only symptom. The majority of these folks get a lot better psychiatrically with long term antibiotics and/or herbal treatments.
Why the CDC sticks up their nose at the overwhelming clinical evidence in the real world (doesn't jive well with their supposedly scientific findings), I have no clue.
"if Western medicine understood how to boost the immune system naturally,"...from the article....well, Western medicine has no good excuses, because the methods to reliably awaken or relax or balance the immune system, as well as antimicrobials of all kinds, anti inflammation of various mechanisms, toxin removal....all this stuff is already known and has been for a really long time! It's just that Americans find themselves where they cannot relate to anything unless it is "scientific". The Chinese don't care how an herb works, only that it does and has proven itself for 2000 years. Americans don't really care if a drug works well or not, only that they understand the science behind it. The proof is in all our meds which tested at about 40% to 60% effective, slightly higher than a sugar pill. The stuff we need to know, is already here, has been here, but is purposely ignored by most Americans. Why would they do that? I have no clue. Maybe they like to suffer? Maybe they think their medical system is better than it actually is? Maybe they have a trust in medicine that is unjustified? I don''t know.
But I do know that all of the stuff discussed in that article did indeed have more of a positive impact on my treatment resistant depression than any of the many dozens of psych meds I tried (Nardil was the only one not tried). The whole psychiatric journey in my life was a total waste of years and life. Antibiotics did for me what no psych drug could ever do. Herbs too, very good.
And if my two MDs are correct in their opinions, then that means about 8 or 9 out of every 10 people at psychobabble would benefit from taking a look outside of American psychiatry.
Just sayin.
IMO.Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/043191_mental_health_immune_system_treatment.html##ixzz2nLPsJK8p
Posted by Mogger on December 13, 2013, at 1:36:37
In reply to Re: Treating Depression via the Immune System, posted by bleauberry on December 12, 2013, at 15:21:20
Did you notice at the end of the article it says "beware of false immune system treatments" and list antibiotics as one of them? What antibiotic helped you as I would like to talk to my pdoc about it? He agrees about inflammation so I would like to propose trying an antibiotic.
Posted by SLS on December 13, 2013, at 6:40:28
In reply to Re: Treating Depression via the Immune System » bleauberry, posted by Mogger on December 13, 2013, at 1:36:37
Minocycline?
You get potent anti-inflammatory, neuroprotective, and antglutamatergic effects with this drug from the tetracycline family. Unless someone can make a convincing argument that another drugs will work better, I would try minocycline first.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023257.html
Minocycline is not an antibiotic. It is more accurate to describe it as a chemical compound with a variety of pharmacological properties; only one of which is antibiotic.
- Scott
Posted by mogger on December 13, 2013, at 11:18:42
In reply to Re: Treating Depression via the Immune System » Mogger, posted by SLS on December 13, 2013, at 6:40:28
Scott,
Very interesting thanks. I take both NAC and Lamictal both of which have really helped my OCD and Lamictal was the first medication to stop my treatment resistant stretch of 10 years. I seem to do well with glutamate modulators. If minocycline has such antiglutamatergic properties I wonder if it would benefit OCD as glutamate is now being more recognized in OCD sufferers like myself? I saw your post about Glycine for OCD and I saw an interesting description of it that I shall cut and paste here. What do you think? I have seen contributors say Glycine can cause depression so I am interested yet timid to try it. I will talk to my pdoc about minocycline. Luckily he is very open minded and supportive. Hope you are doing well.
Supplemental use of glycine at levels of 1 to 3 grams per day is useful in the treatment of certain forms of bipolar depression (manic depression). Some individuals have an inborn error of glycine metabolism, which means that increased glycine intake can result in elevated glycine levels in the blood that manifest themselves as severe mental retardation in infants susceptible to this condition. This is a very rare genetic metabolism problem, but should be evaluated in any individual who is going to be supplemented with glycine.
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Glycine serves as a neuroinhibitory neuromodulator in the central nervous system and works along with gamma-amino butyric acid and taurine. It relates to hyperexictability of CNS neurons, thereby depleting them of potassium and chloride and reducing their ability to be stimulated. Glycine is also used in the biosynthesis of hemoglobin, which is very important in maintenance of proper red blood cell integrity and oxygen carrying capacity. Glycine can also be methylated to dimethylglycine (DMG), which is part of the one-carbon pathway that allows for the donation and acceptance of methyl groups. The one-carbon pathway is extremely important for the synthesis of steroids such as the androgenic and estrogenic hormones as well as cortisone-like hormones.
Glycine serves as a neuroinhibitory neuromodulator in the central nervous system and works along with gamma-amino butyric acid and taurine. It relates to hyperexictability of CNS neurons, thereby depleting them of potassium and chloride and reducing their ability to be stimulated. Glycine is also used in the biosynthesis of hemoglobin, which is very important in maintenance of proper red blood cell integrity and oxygen carrying capacity. Glycine can also be methylated to dimethylglycine (DMG), which is part of the one-carbon pathway that allows for the donation and acceptance of methyl groups. The one-carbon pathway is extremely important for the synthesis of steroids such as the androgenic and estrogenic hormones as well as cortisone-like hormones.
Glycine serves as a neuroinhibitory neuromodulator in the central nervous system and works along with gamma-amino butyric acid and taurine. It relates to hyperexictability of CNS neurons, thereby depleting them of potassium and chloride and reducing their ability to be stimulated. Glycine is also used in the biosynthesis of hemoglobin, which is very important in maintenance of proper red blood cell integrity and oxygen carrying capacity. Glycine can also be methylated to dimethylglycine (DMG), which is part of the one-carbon pathway that allows for the donation and acceptance of methyl groups. The one-carbon pathway is extremely important for the synthesis of steroids such as the androgenic and estrogenic hormones as well as cortisone-like hormones.
Glycine inhibits glutamine synthetase, thereby blocking the formation of glutamine from glutatmate. It may, therefore, have some adverse impact upon ammonia detoxification.This was taken from:
http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/proteins_glycine.html
Posted by bleauberry on December 17, 2013, at 5:29:45
In reply to Re: Treating Depression via the Immune System » bleauberry, posted by Mogger on December 13, 2013, at 1:36:37
I have no idea what they mean by false immune system treatments. That's a bizarre phrase that basically is empty and doesn't mean anything. I mean, what's false? What's not? Weird language they use. Even simple basic food choices impact the immune system positively and negatively. I don't know what they mean by false.
In the lyme world, many of the MDs believe the healing is not actually from killing bugs, but rather the immune system being reset back to normal by the antibiotics. How and why is still a topic of hypothesis. It happens clinically, that's all we know.
Doxycycline, tetracycline, minocycline, bactrim, factive, rifampin, cipro, and a couple others I forgot. Those I have been on.
As Scott said, the tetracycline family is a good general place to start. All of them have anti-inflammation as a side benefit. Mino is more geared for suspicions of intracellular bugs. Tetra is more likely to not plateau or not relapse. Doxy is the most common but tends to plateau and relapse. Mino is often the hardest to take because the Herxheimer reactions from it can be harsher.
Whole raw garlic at the end of a meal. Powerful anti-pathogen, anti-inflammation, and anti-toxin, all in one. There are a handful of excellent herbs as well. One that crosses over between the psych world and the lyme world really well is Rhodiola.
If someone goes into ABX treatment hoping it will help their mood problems, they need to know they are looking at a game plan that involves 6 months to 2 years. Less than that, total waste of time. I love that I have improved so much with ABX. 20 years of psych crap reduced from a severity of 10 to about a 2, all from ABX, not psych drugs. But what people need to know is, my improvement didn't even start to happen until the 2nd year on ABX. Whatever disease is going on that the ABX can help with, it has been there a long time, and is not going to be easily reversed in a short time. It takes a long time for disease to set in, and a long time to undo it. But undo it, we can indeed do that.
> Did you notice at the end of the article it says "beware of false immune system treatments" and list antibiotics as one of them? What antibiotic helped you as I would like to talk to my pdoc about it? He agrees about inflammation so I would like to propose trying an antibiotic.
Posted by bleauberry on December 17, 2013, at 6:00:03
In reply to Treating Depression via the Immune System, posted by Iansf on December 10, 2013, at 16:17:31
I don't know what they mean by "false". What exactly constitutes not false? Who made the subjective determination? Why did they? Can they prove it reliably and dependably every time?
I know a lot about the immune system. Unfortunately, that isn't very much, because we as humans don't know very much about it. If we did, HIV would be a non issue, colds and flus not a problem. Fibro, CFS, Lyme....no problem. But obviously these continue to be huge problems where the best we can do is attempt to manage them, sometimes cure them. As far as I know, there just is not enough factual wisdom of the immune system to be able to claim something as false or true in its treatment.
Heck, even simple basic foods have negative or positive impact on the immune system. That's one reason Americans are so unhealthy. They eat the wrong stuff. Generally speaking. Plants are full of good stuff for our immune system, stuff that guides it, adjusts it, modulates it, beefs it up....but we don't eat much in the way of plants compared to the other foods we eat.
Anyway, as Scott said, the tetracycline family is a good place to start. Doxy is the most common but tends to plateau and relapse. Tetra is similar except doesn't plateau or relapse the way Doxy does. Mino is more geared for suspicions of intracellular infection. All of them have anti-inflammatory and other side mechanisms which happen to be beneficial.
Doxy, Tetra, Mino, Bactrim, Cipro, Factive, Rifampin, Flagyland a couple others. Those I have taken. None in particular helped with my depression and other psych symptoms....it was more of an accumulative effect over time. I am pretty sure my biggest improvement came from anti-Bartonella treatments (a common and devastating co-infection of lyme, also contracted from cats as well as ticks), and these treatments were high dose Doxy, Rifampin, and Cipro. Doxy is usually dose at 200mg as the max. But to penetrate the brain, it needs to be 400mg, and for it to become deadly rather than simply suppressive, it needs to be at least 400mg, and is sometimes dosed up to 600mg.
If infection is underlying someone's psych symptoms, and two MDs who specialize in this area claim that most psych symptoms are infection, then one needs to know this is a long term approach requiring months and even years of treatment to reverse the disease. 3 months is a bare minimum. Anything less is a total waste of time.
Lyme specialists tell me that their hypothesis is that ABX improves symptoms not from the actual killing of bugs, but rather the way they reset the immune system back to normal. The actual mechanisms are mystery. All we know for sure is that this happens commonly in the clinical setting, whether we can explain it or not.
Antidepressants and other psych drugs fill the purpose of temporary assistance while undergoing other longer term strategies for healing. But we tend to see them as long term or forever drugs, rather than temporary assists. They don't cure anything. On the other hand, ABX are slow, but they actually cure, to a point where psych drugs are either no longer needed or are at much reduced doses.
Posted by Jeroen on December 23, 2013, at 10:57:57
In reply to Re: Treating Depression via the Immune System » Iansf, posted by bleauberry on December 17, 2013, at 6:00:03
It's almost time buddy to try the anti viral agent Minocycline, let's see what will happen, i am hoping it will help me
is 50 mg twice daily enough?
This is the end of the thread.
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