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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by Bob on January 29, 2013, at 13:34:54
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by brynb on January 29, 2013, at 13:21:30
> I wish I were stable enough to do the study (and not worry whether I were getting the real deal or a placebo). I'll be seeing Dr. Fruitman in NY tomorrow night (thanks, Hugh!), so I'll see if he thinks it's for me as he does in-office injections.
>
> Anyone here benefit from K injections?
>
> -brynb
One thing that concerns me about all this ketamine talk is what happens when the positive effects fade away before you get back for the next infusion? They talk about a "k-hole" follwing a hit on the street where the user gets a nasty rebound depression following a hit of oral ketamine. Is this happening to people who get infusions? If it is I would think it might be even more nasty than the instances from the oral ingestion.
Posted by Hugh on January 29, 2013, at 15:08:09
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » brynb, posted by Bob on January 29, 2013, at 13:34:54
> One thing that concerns me about all this ketamine talk is what happens when the positive effects fade away before you get back for the next infusion? They talk about a "k-hole" follwing a hit on the street where the user gets a nasty rebound depression following a hit of oral ketamine. Is this happening to people who get infusions? If it is I would think it might be even more nasty than the instances from the oral ingestion.
>That's a concern I have also. It would suck to be lifted out of my depression by ketamine, only to be dropped back into it once the ketamine wore off. That's why they're giving multiple infusions, hoping that this will make it last a lot longer. It could be that the treatment protocol will someday be similar to ECT, where a lot of people get a maintenance dose every so often.
Posted by brynb on January 29, 2013, at 17:02:03
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by Hugh on January 29, 2013, at 15:08:09
I sort of forgot about that. ugh. awful.
I knew better than to be too hopeful...
Posted by poser938 on January 29, 2013, at 17:15:16
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » poser938, posted by Bob on January 28, 2013, at 18:18:34
> > I tried keramine last year. Someone recomended a certain pychiatrist and then I called the psychs office and asked if tbe psychiatrist there was willjng to prescribe if he thought I could benefit from and he said yes. So then I ghot it prescribed on the first visit.
>
> And... how did it go?Well all it did for. Me was make me dizzy. But I wouldn't my experience as normal. Its a long. Story, but my psychiatrist said I have tbe most unique brain out of anyone she' has ever had as a patient,
Posted by poser938 on January 29, 2013, at 17:23:33
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by brynb on January 29, 2013, at 17:02:03
I got ketamine in the form of a nasal spray from a compounding phrmacy.
Posted by jrbecker76 on January 29, 2013, at 20:01:44
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by brynb on January 29, 2013, at 13:21:30
> I wish I were stable enough to do the study (and not worry whether I were getting the real deal or a placebo). I'll be seeing Dr. Fruitman in NY tomorrow night (thanks, Hugh!), so I'll see if he thinks it's for me as he does in-office injections.
>
> Anyone here benefit from K injections?
>
> -brynbPlease keep us updated on how things go.
Posted by johnLA on January 30, 2013, at 0:41:29
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by brynb on January 29, 2013, at 13:21:30
b-
i hope when you read this you are feeling better.
i have not done ketamine injections. curious to see how that goes for you.
i have done a ketamine infusion and nasal spay. unfortunately neither worked.
but, a series of shots i am very interested in hearing about.
good luck.
john
Posted by johnLA on January 30, 2013, at 0:47:01
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » brynb, posted by Bob on January 29, 2013, at 13:34:54
bob-
the amount that they are using for depression is about 5% of what is used on the street to get a high.
i did a ketamine infusion this past summer. very very mild buzz. lasted about an hour or so after. then, nothing.
and, it didn't lift my depression.
not sure what amount they will use in injections, but i would assume it's the same protocol as the infusion (based on weight).
hope bryn finds some relief.
john
Posted by brynb on January 30, 2013, at 5:54:12
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by johnLA on January 30, 2013, at 0:41:29
hi John-
I've been thinking of you. Good to see you here :). I was going to ask you more about your experience this summer.
The deep, dark grip of depression has lifted a bit, but melancholia and irritability remains.
how are you doing? are things a bit better?
b
Posted by SLS on January 30, 2013, at 6:52:35
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Bob, posted by johnLA on January 30, 2013, at 0:47:01
> bob-
>
> the amount that they are using for depression is about 5% of what is used on the street to get a high.
>
> i did a ketamine infusion this past summer. very very mild buzz. lasted about an hour or so after. then, nothing.
>
> and, it didn't lift my depression.
>
> not sure what amount they will use in injections, but i would assume it's the same protocol as the infusion (based on weight).
>
> hope bryn finds some relief.
>
> johnThere is a rather low dosage window within which ketamine acts as an antidepressant, and must be carefully administered in order to maintain this window - thus the infusion administration (0.5 mg/kg body weight given over 40 minutes). If you take too much, it doesn't work. I believe the blood level should be maintained around 200 ng/ml. This might translate to an oral dose of only 0.5 mg/kg body weight. Benzodiazepines are thought to reduce the efficacy of ketamine for depression.
- Scott
Posted by rovers95 on January 30, 2013, at 18:17:12
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » brynb, posted by Bob on January 29, 2013, at 13:34:54
> > I wish I were stable enough to do the study (and not worry whether I were getting the real deal or a placebo). I'll be seeing Dr. Fruitman in NY tomorrow night (thanks, Hugh!), so I'll see if he thinks it's for me as he does in-office injections.
> >
> > Anyone here benefit from K injections?
> >
> > -brynb
>
>
> One thing that concerns me about all this ketamine talk is what happens when the positive effects fade away before you get back for the next infusion? They talk about a "k-hole" follwing a hit on the street where the user gets a nasty rebound depression following a hit of oral ketamine. Is this happening to people who get infusions? If it is I would think it might be even more nasty than the instances from the oral ingestion.
>
>
Hi BobI do agree that the actual recovery from depression and then a drop back into their original depressive state could be a torturous process for many, reminds me of the quote I can cope with the despair but it's the hope that kills me!
To allay some of your concerns, I have not heard of street users commonly experiencing rebound depression on ketamine. As I understand it the term 'k hole' refers to a feeling of paralysis or being 'trapped' when excessive amounts are ingested.
Hopefully people on this board will benefit from NMDA antagonists such as ketamine or related treatments.
cheers
rover
Posted by SLS on January 30, 2013, at 23:14:18
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Bob, posted by rovers95 on January 30, 2013, at 18:17:12
Another rapid-acting NMDA drug:
Naurex GLYX-13, like ketamine, interacts with the NMDA glutamate receptor. Unlike ketamine, it acts as a partial agonist of the glycine binding site rather than completely blocking the ion channel.
http://www.naurex.com/html/glyx13.html
http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01684163?term=Naurex+Depression+Study&rank=1
GLYX-13 is supposedly without psychotomimetic effects and has a wide therapeutic index.
Wichita, Kansas
Contact: Matthew Macaluso, MD 316-293-1833Princeton, New Jersey
Contact: Jeffery T. Apter, MD 609-921-3555Other sites can probably be found by contacting Naurex.
Contact: Lee Bastin, R.N. Ed.D. 847-871-0377 x119 leebastin@naurex.com
Contact: Ronald M Burch, MD PhD 203-247-3895 ronburch@naurex.com
- Scott
Posted by ChicagoKat on January 31, 2013, at 10:24:51
In reply to Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by Hugh on January 28, 2013, at 12:03:50
> This clinical trial is being conducted in twenty states -- most of the states at one or two locations, but Texas has four, Florida has eight and California has fourteen. They're giving multiple infusions of ketamine or a placebo. The first week they give three infusions, and then taper to two a week and then one. They pay participants $75 a visit. For more information, go to
>
> http://www.mydepressionstudy.com
>
Thanks for the info and the link Hugh. There are 2 centers here in the Chicago area, so I applied, but didn't get accepted for the trial b/c I've failed too many drugs. I asked her how many you need to have failed to be disqualified and she said more than 4 and I laughed b/c I've failed about 20 or so. Still, it is very exciting that a new drug might be on the horizon with a very different mechanism of action, this time inhibiting a "negative" neurotransmitter, instead of all the other drugs that boost positive ones. I'm getting a colonoscopy next week (how fun!!) and they are using propofol and ketamine for sedation...I am going to see how I feel afterwards, after having the Ketamine. Of course, hardly a scientific study, especially as I'll also be getting Propofol, but I'm just curious.
Kat
Posted by brynb on January 31, 2013, at 10:34:58
In reply to Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by Hugh on January 28, 2013, at 12:03:50
Hi Hugh-
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of Dr. Fruitman. I saw him last night and finally have some hope back.
Thanks again =).
-b
Posted by Hugh on January 31, 2013, at 11:12:12
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Hugh, posted by ChicagoKat on January 31, 2013, at 10:24:51
Sorry to hear the clinical trial wouldn't take you.
Here's a ketamine doc in Deerfield in case it turns out to be something you want to pursue:
Posted by Hugh on January 31, 2013, at 11:17:24
In reply to @ Hugh » Hugh, posted by brynb on January 31, 2013, at 10:34:58
> Hi Hugh-
>
> Thanks for pointing me in the direction of Dr. Fruitman. I saw him last night and finally have some hope back.
>
> Thanks again =).
>
> -bYou're welcome. Hope is a wonderful thing.
Posted by ChicagoKat on February 1, 2013, at 10:19:55
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » ChicagoKat, posted by Hugh on January 31, 2013, at 11:12:12
> Sorry to hear the clinical trial wouldn't take you.
> Here's a ketamine doc in Deerfield in case it turns out to be something you want to pursue:
>
> http://neuroscience.mdThanks SO much Hugh!!! My pdoc did mention to me that some area clinics are starting to use it, but I hadn't researched it yet; you saved me the trouble! :)
I'm going to wait until my highly-unscientific study of how Ketamine affects me after my fun colonoscopy to see how I feel. But I do think I'll end up at least giving it a try. Can't thank you enough :)
Kat
Posted by Hugh on February 1, 2013, at 11:39:05
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Hugh, posted by ChicagoKat on February 1, 2013, at 10:19:55
You're welcome. I've read that Dr. Best uses an anesthesiologist, so it'll be expensive. You might be able to find someone in your area who does it cheaper. An interesting thing about Best's website is that he sometimes uses EEG and SPECT to tailor his treatments. I've had my EEG examined by a neurofeedback clinician, who found that my left prefrontal cortex was underactive. This is frequently the case with people suffering from depression.
Posted by SLS on February 1, 2013, at 12:05:20
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Hugh, posted by ChicagoKat on February 1, 2013, at 10:19:55
> > Sorry to hear the clinical trial wouldn't take you.
> > Here's a ketamine doc in Deerfield in case it turns out to be something you want to pursue:
> >
> > http://neuroscience.md
>
> Thanks SO much Hugh!!! My pdoc did mention to me that some area clinics are starting to use it, but I hadn't researched it yet; you saved me the trouble! :)
>
> I'm going to wait until my highly-unscientific study of how Ketamine affects me after my fun colonoscopy to see how I feel. But I do think I'll end up at least giving it a try. Can't thank you enough :)
> KatIf you don't feel magic after your procedure, you probably can't come to a definitive conclusion that ketamine is of no value to you. The antidepressant effect with ketamine seems to be most robust when dosages are used that are lower than those administered for anesthesia. If you feel even slightly better, I would consider that a good sign.
Good luck!
- Scott
Posted by Bob on February 1, 2013, at 12:08:26
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Hugh, posted by ChicagoKat on February 1, 2013, at 10:19:55
>
> Thanks SO much Hugh!!! My pdoc did mention to me that some area clinics are starting to use it, but I hadn't researched it yet; you saved me the trouble! :)
>
> Kat
>
Kat,What type of clinics are you referring to? Ones specifically for mental illness?
Bob
Posted by ChicagoKat on February 2, 2013, at 19:09:06
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » ChicagoKat, posted by SLS on February 1, 2013, at 12:05:20
Thanks Scott :) Yeah, I'm aware my little colonoscopy experiment is *highly* unscientific, but I'm just a little curiious nonetheless. I won't make a decision about Ketamine based on what happens, that is sure. It will probably be moolah that will make the decision; we have all my hospital bills to pay - they keep rolling in every day, it is so damn depressing - so we aren't gonna be in a position to spend a lot of money for a while. Thanks again, and you go, Mr Smarty Pants!!! :D
Kat
Posted by ChicagoKat on February 2, 2013, at 19:11:02
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » ChicagoKat, posted by Bob on February 1, 2013, at 12:08:26
>
> >
> > Thanks SO much Hugh!!! My pdoc did mention to me that some area clinics are starting to use it, but I hadn't researched it yet; you saved me the trouble! :)
> >
> > Kat
> >
>
>
> Kat,
>
> What type of clinics are you referring to? Ones specifically for mental illness?
>
> BobYes Bob, basically psychiatry practices that have branched out into novel forms of therapy - such as Ketamine - just like the one Hugh pointed me to.
Kat
Posted by MrAnderson on February 7, 2013, at 8:08:28
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Hugh, posted by ChicagoKat on February 1, 2013, at 10:19:55
> > Sorry to hear the clinical trial wouldn't take you.
> > Here's a ketamine doc in Deerfield in case it turns out to be something you want to pursue:
> >
> > http://neuroscience.md
>
> Thanks SO much Hugh!!! My pdoc did mention to me that some area clinics are starting to use it, but I hadn't researched it yet; you saved me the trouble! :)
>
> I'm going to wait until my highly-unscientific study of how Ketamine affects me after my fun colonoscopy to see how I feel. But I do think I'll end up at least giving it a try. Can't thank you enough :)
> Kat
>
>Hey Kat, I've talked to someone who's been to Dr. Best, she said it's $1,000 per infusion so it's pretty expensive. Also, everyone I've talked to (including my endo who referred me) said he's not nice and very difficult to deal with.
I'm currently talking to someone in the Chicago area who is seeing a doctor in East Chicago that supposedly does ketamine infusions. It's crazy how difficult it is to find someone to administer it. I'll let you know if I find out anything.
Posted by ChicagoKat on February 11, 2013, at 20:05:04
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression, posted by MrAnderson on February 7, 2013, at 8:08:28
> > > Sorry to hear the clinical trial wouldn't take you.
> > > Here's a ketamine doc in Deerfield in case it turns out to be something you want to pursue:
> > >
> > > http://neuroscience.md
> >
> > Thanks SO much Hugh!!! My pdoc did mention to me that some area clinics are starting to use it, but I hadn't researched it yet; you saved me the trouble! :)
> >
> > I'm going to wait until my highly-unscientific study of how Ketamine affects me after my fun colonoscopy to see how I feel. But I do think I'll end up at least giving it a try. Can't thank you enough :)
> > Kat
> >
> >
>
> Hey Kat, I've talked to someone who's been to Dr. Best, she said it's $1,000 per infusion so it's pretty expensive. Also, everyone I've talked to (including my endo who referred me) said he's not nice and very difficult to deal with.
>
> I'm currently talking to someone in the Chicago area who is seeing a doctor in East Chicago that supposedly does ketamine infusions. It's crazy how difficult it is to find someone to administer it. I'll let you know if I find out anything.
>Thanks so much MrAnderson...I had heard the same thing about Dr Best...good luck in your search, and if I find anyone I'll be sure to let you know
Kat
Posted by Kristopher on February 19, 2013, at 13:12:03
In reply to Re: Nationwide ketamine trial for depression » Hugh, posted by ChicagoKat on January 31, 2013, at 10:24:51
Hi Kat and other babblers,
Does anyone know if this study is for people currently on a medication or not?
Thank you,
Kristopher> > This clinical trial is being conducted in twenty states -- most of the states at one or two locations, but Texas has four, Florida has eight and California has fourteen. They're giving multiple infusions of ketamine or a placebo. The first week they give three infusions, and then taper to two a week and then one. They pay participants $75 a visit. For more information, go to
> >
> > http://www.mydepressionstudy.com
> >
> Thanks for the info and the link Hugh. There are 2 centers here in the Chicago area, so I applied, but didn't get accepted for the trial b/c I've failed too many drugs. I asked her how many you need to have failed to be disqualified and she said more than 4 and I laughed b/c I've failed about 20 or so. Still, it is very exciting that a new drug might be on the horizon with a very different mechanism of action, this time inhibiting a "negative" neurotransmitter, instead of all the other drugs that boost positive ones. I'm getting a colonoscopy next week (how fun!!) and they are using propofol and ketamine for sedation...I am going to see how I feel afterwards, after having the Ketamine. Of course, hardly a scientific study, especially as I'll also be getting Propofol, but I'm just curious.
> Kat
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
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