![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 29 to 53 of 64. Go back in thread:
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 14:51:32
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by Alexei on August 22, 2012, at 14:16:17
I take:
1200 mg of Lithium
60 mg of Viibryd
10 mg of Abilify
2 mg of KlonopinEric
Posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 14:54:40
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 12:54:22
> People stay where they want to
What people? Does this mean everybody, including the mentally challenged and those with severe brain injuries? What about people in comas? Are you saying that, for example, people who are mentally challenged don't go to college because they don't want to, because it sure seems like you are. Or are the mentally ill the only ones who stay where they want to, in your eyes?
Tomatheus
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 15:37:22
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 14:54:40
> Does this mean everybody, including the mentally >challenged and those with severe brain injuries?
Stephen Hawking.
People in comas? Yeah, I meant them too, f*ck*ng vegetables can wake up whenever they want.
If a mentally challenged person hasn't gone to college its because they don't want to. Nothing is stopping them.
John Nash
In my eyes, the mentally challenged can do whatever they want. That means stay put or become mega porn stars, whatever.
Beethoven
Eric
Posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:34:48
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 22, 2012, at 11:14:19
> Eric.
>
> You just don't get it.
>
> Maybe you never had it.
>
> Perhaps you once had it, but have quickly forgotten what it's like to have it.
>
> You assume too much about me as you attempt to see me through eyes that never will. I exist to you only in words posted electronically. You don't even know how long it takes for me to type those words.
>
> I am feeling better. I can read whole paragraphs now, but still not consecutively. Interestingly, I can write ten if I had to.
>
> Anyway, you still make the mistake of judging the illness of others based upon your own experience, and expect them to be able to mirror your abilities. You expect people to chip away at their depression when they might not be able to even lift the hammer.
>
> Depression has many faces. It takes an expert to be able to recognize them all. No two depressions look alike just as no two brains function alike. I am no expert and try not of quantify the suffering of others, especially publicly. What would motivate you to so with me? Am I too unintelligent to have thought to chip away at my illness as you have yours? Perhaps I am just lazy?
>
> > Are you going to school? Do you have a job? Do you volunteer? Do you answer personal ads on Craigslist? Do you take dancing lessons? Have you hiked a 14er?
>
> You just don't get it.
>
> > > Can you better describe this experience? I would >like to compare it to what I have seen in others.
>
> > I thought it was a "pervasive mistake...to attempt to compare their experience with mental illness to those of others"
>
> It is. You missed the satire.
>
> You are very knowledgeable about psychopharmacology and often give good advice about prescriptions for somatic treatments. I need as many ideas as I can get. However, what I don't need are prescriptions for making adjustments to my psyche and how to use that psyche to develop strategies to cope with my depressive illness. You don't have a clue.
>
> I'm sure your advice to me would be appropriate for some other people - just not me. For me, you were wrong.
>
> - ScottThere is a spectrum of the degree and variability to this disease. There are times that turning on the computer is as hard for me as what running a marathon is to someone else.
If you suggest that someone can simply ignore any disease with "mental powers", you have not experienced what it is like to be at the more difficult part of the spectrum - and no judgement should be made. Are we not trying to change the public's perception of mental illness - it can be a serious disease.
When people offer what they percieve as "advice" to those who are already especially sensitive and hard on themselves, to be very critical and demeaning.
Posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:45:39
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Tomatheus, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 15:37:22
> > Does this mean everybody, including the mentally >challenged and those with severe brain injuries?
>
> Stephen Hawking.
>
> People in comas? Yeah, I meant them too, f*ck*ng vegetables can wake up whenever they want.
>
> If a mentally challenged person hasn't gone to college its because they don't want to. Nothing is stopping them.
>
> John Nash
>
> In my eyes, the mentally challenged can do whatever they want. That means stay put or become mega porn stars, whatever.
>
> Beethoven
>
> EricEric,
I am feeling like your posts are attacking and very offensive. I may need to notify the board to block this discussion. I should not have started it.
Posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 20:05:36
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:45:39
> Eric,
> I am feeling like your posts are attacking and very offensive. I may need to notify the board to block this discussion. I should not have started it.Alchemy,
I liked the way this discussion started off with your original post and some of the posts that initially followed, and I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread with my reply to Eric/Phidippus. I probably shouldn't have escalated the situation with the post that I wrote. However, I think that you made some good comments in your original post, and I do hope that you can find a way to prepare for a career in medical research, whether or not you're ready to start taking the needed courses at this point in time.
Tomatheus
Posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2012, at 20:58:26
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » alchemy, posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 20:05:36
I have found that to remain inactive is courting depression. I remember when a pdoc said to me as long as you remain anxious I know you are okay. Now I know what he meant as that is what keeps me moving. Yesterday rode 6 miles on bike in pouring rain as I refused to let something defeat like the weather. I was always called a survivor. I must be as no younger people were out in a yellow slicker getting drenched. A therapist once said you must leave the house daily and do something. I remember this board telling me for years to volunteer but I volunteerd before Nursing. So to me this would be going backward so now sell new items on Ebay with husband. Our source of income. Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on August 23, 2012, at 7:23:23
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:45:39
You're right. I got defensive and went overboard. Please except my apologies.
Eric
Posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 17:22:38
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » alchemy, posted by phidippus on August 23, 2012, at 7:23:23
I didn't think Phillipus did anything so awful. Maybe s/he got defensive-- but Scott was being pretty accusatory.
Maybe no one else feels this, but for myself, but I don't so much like Scott's saying that he is so far below his intellectual level, when many people here have acknowledged him as very intellectually sophisticated and informed. Many people look to him for guidance and judgment, and I wonder if it doesn't reflect some depressive sense of perfectionism that he believes he has fallen so far below his level. And it is not kind to others who admire him so much.
The length of time it takes to write a sentence or paragraph isn't a measure of intellectual ability, or performance-- the content of the sentence is- Many people write slowly or revise over and over and over.
And many people don't have the intellectual fortitude to study and read pages of intellectual material under any circumstances.
I don't know Scott-- I don't know his level of achievement or his underlying ability, but I 'm not clear at all how he become so fixed on the idea that he has so underachieved compared to the potential that he has.
All of us-- have failed to achieve our dreams, and all of us are less that the self that we can imagine.
and I don't mean all of on Babble-- I mean all of us in the world.
Wilfull
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 18:16:15
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists, posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 17:22:38
> I don't know Scott-- I don't know his level of achievement or his underlying ability,
Bingo.
Why should you even give a damn? There is nothing so special about me that you should focus so much of your attention on me.
- Scott
Posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 18:54:08
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Willful, posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 18:16:15
the reason I might focus is that you are someone I'm acquainted with, whose postings have an effect on me. I clearly don't know you, as you pointed out, except through your words here. But those aren't such a negligible way either.
I'm not sure why you've been so offended by Phillipus' posts, so maybe you could clarify.
Willful
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists, posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 18:54:08
> I'm not sure why you've been so offended by Phillipus' posts, so maybe you could clarify.
Are you asking me to explain the workings of my psyche?
I still don't understand your need to understand me. I am not that important.
- Scott
Posted by europerep on August 24, 2012, at 15:06:09
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 7:10:18
> I hope you would agree that for some people, their depression is disabling and does indeed stop them from doing almost everything.
I think it is worth noting here that it was you, Scott, who chose to challenge phidippus on his views on depression, its impact on someone's "performance levels" and so on, by posting the above remark. You cannot expect to open up a debate without having your own views challenged. And, if you make your case based on the experience of someone with depression, then it's only logical that people are going to ask questions about that person, even if that person happens to be you. Saying that people don't know how long it takes you to write a post, and then, when people want to know the answer, telling them it's not important is not how debating works.
Incidentally, I disagree with much of what phidippus said, but that's a different story.
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2012, at 6:23:09
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by europerep on August 24, 2012, at 15:06:09
Hi.
> telling them it's not important is not how debating works
I did not say that "it" was not important. I said that "I" was not important.
I really didn't find this exchange to be much of a debate at all. If you would like to identify what it was that piqued my interest, you can find it in the use of quotation marks early in the thread. Perhaps I am too sensitive to such things.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:11:47
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Raisinb, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 23:02:31
> > I've been in states where I was so frantically doing everything I could think of to defeat my depression that I induced way more dysphoria because I was constantly beating myself up for not doing more or different things. Depression is great for inducing binds like that.
>
> Have you always had high expectations of yourself?
>
> I did.
>
> Perfectionism can be depressogenic.
>
> At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
>
> I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.
>
>
> - ScottThis is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others? I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
I'm probably just being narcissistic. But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
What does that mean? Who's rule of reason? Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable? If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize, and instead take your life into your own hands, are you being unreasonable? Was Ernest Hemingway unreasonable for blowing his brains out because ECT had robbed him of the ability to write?
I don't know. Sometimes (or more recently), the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
Posted by SLS on August 26, 2012, at 7:48:57
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:11:47
> > At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
> >
> > I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.> This is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
Most of your validation must come from within, especially because so few people around you understand the degree of pain and impairment you are suffering on a daily basis for years at a time. I hope you find validation here. You try so hard. I was fortunate to have doctors from various research facilities who validated me and had an understanding of how debilitating my illness is and how hard I try to remain alive and functioning independently.
> He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
> I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
Yes. Mental illness has historically been considered to be a sign of weakness, cowardice, or defect. Such things are not celebrated.
> I'm probably just being narcissistic.
I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
> But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
> What does that mean? Who's rule of reason?
Not mine. But then again, who am I?
> Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
> If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
> the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
:-(
Try to hold closely to your soul the memories of what life can be without depression, anxiety, and OCD - assuming that you were ever fortunate enough to know such a time. I truly believe that it is my memories of remission that helped me to keep going. I knew the potential rewards of persistence. I guard these memories.
I really want to see you well. Please don't give up.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 27, 2012, at 8:32:03
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 26, 2012, at 7:48:57
> > > At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
> > >
> > > I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.
>
> > This is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
>
> Most of your validation must come from within, especially because so few people around you understand the degree of pain and impairment you are suffering on a daily basis for years at a time. I hope you find validation here. You try so hard. I was fortunate to have doctors from various research facilities who validated me and had an understanding of how debilitating my illness is and how hard I try to remain alive and functioning independently.I think my problem is that I hide symptoms from my psychiatrist. I was so desperate to have my ADD treated (getting an rx. for a stimulant in Australia is such a feat in itself that it seemed like a viable survival tactic at the time) that I never revealed the extent of my borderline-agoraphobia/phobic anxiety. He knows I suffer from OCD, but may be under the impression it is more an obsessive/anxiety issue, whereas the degree of daily avoidance I go through has reduced my quality-of-life to next-to-nil. He has never offered me any kind of affirmation of my suffering (other than a comment on my intelligence), though I thought perhaps this went part-in-parcel with his psychodynamic approach. I was more upset because he ended our last session with the aforementioned commentary on how I needed to develop some sense of internal validation to fight off constant projections, irrational fantasies, etc. and that no person could offer me that other than myself. Maybe it was what I needed to hear, but it was difficult because, like I say (partly through my own fault), he doesn't have a precise picture of the degree of my suffering.
>
> > He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
>
> It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit. It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
>
> > I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
>
> Yes. Mental illness has historically been considered to be a sign of weakness, cowardice, or defect. Such things are not celebrated.
>
> > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
>
> I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict. I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself. Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering. My psychiatrist doesn't like dishing out labels and hasn't really confirmed or denied; he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
>
> > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
>
> I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
>
> > What does that mean? Who's rule of reason?
>
> Not mine. But then again, who am I?
>
> > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
>
> No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that, so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.? Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction. I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me, but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
>
> > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
>
> I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
>
> > the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
>
> :-(
>
> Try to hold closely to your soul the memories of what life can be without depression, anxiety, and OCD - assuming that you were ever fortunate enough to know such a time. I truly believe that it is my memories of remission that helped me to keep going. I knew the potential rewards of persistence. I guard these memories.
>
> I really want to see you well. Please don't give up.
>Yes, there were such times. But so much has been clouded over by anger and bitterness over lost time, family conflict and hostility, and pure fear. I feel like a prisoner at home, and cannot leave. Anyway, your sentiment made me cry. It's more sincere, understanding, non-judgmental encouragement than my parents have ever offered me.
Please excuse me if this is too much information, but given my predilection for forming friendships with older males in real life, it suddenly dawned on me that you operate as a kind of online father figure for me. It makes sense, since I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
Posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 17:08:57
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 27, 2012, at 8:32:03
> > > How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
> > It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
> Yes. I sometimes operate in denial, and can very easily be drawn into states of suicidality when more functional people (usually viable vessels for my own idealized self-projections) enter my orbit.
That is TOTALLY understandable. I am still confronted with this challenge, despite my attempts to understand and accept my illness and how crushing it can be upon my ability to function in society. For many years, I was consumed with these negative thoughts. I sometimes resent certain people for their success in society. This is not very attractive. I have achieved a great deal given the debilitating illness I am handicapped with. However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I want to succeed in society, too.
> It is wretched and humiliating to both withdraw from and to be in society. It becomes a double bind. I would hate to denigrate your suffering Scott, but do you think that perhaps there's been some social shift which has made it even more difficult for people of my age/generation (I'm 26), given how materialistic and narcissistic (in a morally neutral sense) current youth culture is, and the greater opportunities for self-actualizing, leisure activity, etc. (i.e. less emphasis on family, trades, people marrying later, etc.)?
I feel that I would have to be immersed in society to a much greater degree than I have been in order to judge such things. My only exposure to the world of the younger is through what I see on CNN. I'm sure there are reasons why you feel the way you do. It is quite possible that you are right about there being a social shift. I am just very reluctant to judge youth. I can't possibly understand fully a generation that I am not a part of. I was barely a part of my own.
> I am only speculating, and don't want to compare myself to you. Maybe I am wrong and things were equally difficult when you were my age.
I fully appreciate your sentiments. I doubt that things have been equally difficult historically. I don't think I had such a difficult time with the sort of things you describe. Things seem so pressured and competitive now.
> > > I'm probably just being narcissistic.
> > I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
> I was told I have some kind of narcissistic personality disorder by a therapist once - I forget the phrase, but it was a subtype that involved more guilt and inner conflict.
Inappriate feelings of guilt is actually a well-known feature of depressive illness. Being young and so intellectually intense is bound to produce inner conflict when one is depressed. Perhaps you are narcissistic, but I don't believe that the presence of guilt and inner conflict is sufficient to indicate narcissism.
> I guess I see it in my constant desire for external validation and recognition of my achievements/suffering, envy towards others, the rage, bitterness and (often) inability to see others as something other than projections of myself.
Perhaps you were not validated by your parents when you were a child. You might not have been nurtured. Maybe you were teased or bullied by peers. You may never have had the approval and praise of anyone during your formative years. You may have been ridiculed. It makes sense that you would have developed as an adult to always be looking for validation and approval. You would always be in your own head. However, this is not the same as narcissism.
> Maybe those are natural responses to extreme illness and suffering.
Probably. However, your depression may also have been precipitated by the sort of chronic psychosocial stress I mentioned above. Both can be true in the same person. Once triggered in a biologically vulnerable individual, depressive disorders can be self perpetuating.
> he said 'narcissism' is just too multi-faceted, dynamic and intrinsic to depression to be boiled down to a pathology.
That's a bunch of crap.
> > > But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
> > I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
> I guess he used it in reference to my inability (or unwillingness or whatever) to challenge my cognitive biases. I must admit, he sometimes uses it as a cop-out (for example, when I complained of feeling less motivation to do things on an SSRI, he linked it to effort), though I guess that goes with his training as a therapist; on the plus side, he is more careful with his approach in terms of (over)medicating.
He might be the best practicioner of psychodynamic psychotherapy, but that does not guarantee that he is equally effective as a diagnostician of Axis I disorders or a psychopharmacologist.
> I think next time I will need to be more clear about how much I'm suffering with regards to OCD, and how I don't feel it's related to effort (or lack thereof) at this point.
Before I lose the thought, I want to mention that Viibryd (vilazodone) might be an interesting drug for you to explore. It might treat depression and OCD at the same time.
> > > Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
> > No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
> Perhaps you are right. At the moment, it feels like the most rational thing in the world to me, but I acknowledge that Parnate withdrawal must be playing a part in that,
DEFINITELY!
> so am just doing everything I can to bide my time until I see him again. Do you think that MDD can affect judgement towards others, i.e. induced mild, well, 'paranoia' about being hated, unwanted, etc.?
Yes. I do believe that depression can produce feelings of guilt, persecution, and disapproval along with other intrusive thoughts, especially if there is a childhood history of these things.
> Because as much as my family are prone to acting like d-bags and enforcing that idea at times, it is that sense of alienation (and my inability to escape from them) which is currently driving my desire to finally just end things.
Don't let the negative thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of others determine your decision making process. Do what you know is best for you. Stand alone if you have to. Maintain your intellectual and emotional independence.
> I have also befriended a girl I'm very attracted to, and while I continue to see her out of loneliness and an emotional closeness we've developed, a lack of reciprocal feeling on her part
How do you know?
> has left me feeling even more ashamed and worthless because of my affliction.
Has she told you that your affliction is the reason for her not wanting to become more deeply involved?
> I wonder if her presence in my life is ultimate worse for me,
Very possibly. However, I know what it is like to want to maintain a relationship out of loneliness, despite a lack of healthy feelings of affection and commitment.
> but I guess that's a complicated issue, and probably something for another thread ..
Perhaps you can take advantage of the Psychology board. There are some very smart and caring people there.
> > > If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
> > I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
> Well when it becomes ongoing for long enough, the inability to self-actualize isn't restricted to those states. I am having difficulty coming to terms with the idea that perhaps my life will always be defined by a battle with depression, OCD, ADD, that it's time I gave up on my dreams, because while I'm still young, I've missed out on so much integral career time/experience in the field I once loved and dreamed of working in. I do not have the body of knowledge that others have.
I understand.
:-(
> Please excuse me if this is too much information,
Actually, I feel priveleged that you should want to share so much. Your post allows me to understand you better - and like you more.
> I always take your encouragement and praise so personally. My own father has always been really emotionally distant and unnurturing.
You are a wonderful person who goes out of their way to nurture others. How could you possibly be a narcissist? Does your personal research into narcissism indicate to you that you are?
You know, it really sucks that you are being given such unsupportive messages by your psychiatrist. It is just one more instance of your not getting the validation and praise you missed a child.
I think you're pretty cool.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 18:31:31
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » g_g_g_unit, posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 17:08:57
>However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I >want to succeed in society, too
You can get more from life. You do deserve more from life. I have no doubt you will succeed in society, too.
Eric
Posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 18:38:47
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 18:31:31
> >However, I want more from life. I deserve more. I >want to succeed in society, too
>
> You can get more from life. You do deserve more from life. I have no doubt you will succeed in society, too.
>
> Eric
Thanks, Eric. Sometimes these things seem so out of reach.I'll keep trying.
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 20:04:43
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 27, 2012, at 18:38:47
While I have your attention...
I have been having a troubling symptom and because I have OCD alongside the bipolar, I am having difficulty figuring out if its a bipolar symptom or an OCD symptom. I am asking you because you're the only person on Psycho-Babble I know is bipolar.
Basically, I'm having moments where I wish I were dead. Like I feel so tired I can't go on, just for brief moments. Is this my mood becoming labile, or just intrusive thoughts?
Thanks,
Eric
Posted by SLS on August 28, 2012, at 7:45:16
In reply to Re: just a brief digression » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 27, 2012, at 20:04:43
> While I have your attention...
>
> I have been having a troubling symptom and because I have OCD alongside the bipolar, I am having difficulty figuring out if its a bipolar symptom or an OCD symptom. I am asking you because you're the only person on Psycho-Babble I know is bipolar.
>
> Basically, I'm having moments where I wish I were dead. Like I feel so tired I can't go on, just for brief moments. Is this my mood becoming labile, or just intrusive thoughts?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
When my depression was worse, I was frequently plagued by unwanted, inappropriate intrusive thoughts. It was like my sick brain was manufacturing these thoughts on its own. However, I would allow them to dissipate quickly once they emerged by not paying attention to them. I realized that they were indeed spontaneous brain malfunctions that were unrelated to me as a person and not to be taken seriously.Obviously, I cannot draw a distinction between the intrusive thoughts of depression versus those of OCD. If I had to guess, I would say that those of OCD cannot be so easily dismissed as one cannot help but to focus on and ruminate over them, despite knowing that they are part of an illness. I imagine that such thoughts are relentless in OCD.
I guess the bottom line is that intrusive thoughts can occur in the absence of OCD or OCPD.
- Scott
Posted by b2chica on August 30, 2012, at 15:38:07
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Tomatheus, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 15:37:22
just a correction. Stephen Hawkins has ALS, not a brain injury. ALS is a neurodegenerative disease effecting muscles not cognition. only about 1% of those with ALS get psychological effects, mostly mood lability, some with memory issues etc. but very few percent. so hes mostly dealing with physical impairment, NOT mood like chronic or acute depression/mania/schizophrenia.
Posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 16:09:32
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by b2chica on August 30, 2012, at 15:38:07
> just a correction. Stephen Hawkins has ALS, not a brain injury. ALS is a neurodegenerative disease effecting muscles not cognition. only about 1% of those with ALS get psychological effects, mostly mood lability, some with memory issues etc. but very few percent. so hes mostly dealing with physical impairment, NOT mood like chronic or acute depression/mania/schizophrenia.
If you think about it, one can learn to live with a great many handicaps as long as they have a healthy mind and the mental resources to do so. If one's intellect, motivation, and mental energy are intact, anything is possible. When these things are compromised, very little is possible.
Depression is an altered state of consciousness. When one is drunk and cannot function, we blame the alcohol and expect very little of the intoxicated person during the time that they are in an altered state. However, this is not true of depression. Depression is rarely appreciated as the altered state that it is, and much is expected of a depressed person.
"If a paraplegic can learn to run with prosthetic legs, why can't you get out of bed, take a shower, and get dressed?"
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 30, 2012, at 20:56:56
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » b2chica, posted by SLS on August 30, 2012, at 16:09:32
People with depression still have the faculty of judgement. When I was psychotically depressed, I still made the right choices in taking care of myself.
Because depressed people can demonstrate good judgement, most people assume they can function normally. Most people don't understand just how severe depression can get and they certainly don't understand the biological aspect of depression and how it effects the functioning of the brain. I think it says something though that people have made wonderful work in the worst states of depression: the poetry of Sylvia Plath or the writings of Ernest Hemingway come to mind.
"If a paraplegic can learn to run with prosthetic legs, why can't you get out of bed, take a shower and get dressed?"
How do you answer that? I could say, physiologically, there's nothing wrong with the depressed person, they can get up. The only problem is that physiology is controlled by a brain that has lost something. The axons in their myelinated sheaths aren't firing right, or maybe whole brain structures have been comprimised. We're not sure. Why don't you get out of bed? Because my mind hurts.
Is depression an altered state of consciosness? Maybe, but I can't compare it to drunkness or any other kind of intoxication, because judgement is mostly retained.
Eric
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