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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 64. Go back in thread:
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 7:57:39
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 20:33:52
>I think the most pervasive mistake made by people >on Psycho-Babble (and elsewhere) is to attempt to >compare their experience with mental illness to >those of others, and to question another's resolve >to function at any given level.
Why is it a mistake to compare my depression with another's? All around, the guises depression takes can be remarkably similar, hence our ability to relate with one another on this very site. We wouldn't be handing out advice if each experience were exotic.
>It sounds as if you are saying that I could have >defeated my depression long ago if I had only >known the trick to "do something
There's no trick and I never said long ago in a galaxy far far away...I'm saying if you keep doing, you will chip away at your depression-maybe not 'defeat' it, but reduce its control of your life.
>What didn't I do? What do I continue not to do?
Are you going to school? Do you have a job? Do you volunteer? Do you answer personal ads on Craigslist? Do you take dancing lessons? Have you hiked a 14er?
I would like to know more about what you do.
>When did you first discover this "trick"?
Its not a trick. Its something that works. I blame years of CBT, DBT and counseling. My therapist is always on me to keep doing stuff, keeping busy. It provides structure and keeps the mind from wandering into shark infested waters.
>Are you now cured of mental illness such that >you can discontinue treatment? If not, then why >haven't you defeated your illness by "doing >something"?
Now, now, Scott. It appears I am paying for saying 'defeating' or 'defeated'. A little touchy about my choice in rhetoric? And yes, the remission of my OCD is partly due to 'doing something'.
>you say that you could "hardly" move
Motor retardation. I felt like I was moving in Jello. I had a hard time manipulating the mouse and keyboard on my music workstation and everything seemed to be moving in slow motion-especially my thoughts. I also had this feeling that I just wanted to die.
I've been so depressed before I incurred Cotard Syndrome-the belief I was dead. Zyprexa helped with that.
>Can you better describe this experience? I would >like to compare it to what I have seen in others.
I thought it was a "pervasive mistake...to attempt to compare their experience with mental illness to those of others"?
By the way, Scott, I don't mean to offend you or piss you off. Come over and we'll play some Portal 2.
Eric
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 7:59:45
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Raisinb, posted by Alexei on August 22, 2012, at 7:35:55
How did you change your approach?
Eric
Posted by Raisinb on August 22, 2012, at 10:57:01
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Raisinb, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 23:02:31
Yes, and all my therapists tell me not to be so hard on myself. Not that it's that easy. I can't wake up and not be profoundly disappointed and angry at myself for not meeting my own expectations,
I wish there was an award or something for surviving with years of depressive illness. We all deserve it,
Posted by Raisinb on August 22, 2012, at 11:00:42
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Raisinb, posted by Alexei on August 22, 2012, at 7:35:55
What did you change your approach to? How did you do things differently? I often still get stuck in this bind. It's really tough not to for me.
Posted by SLS on August 22, 2012, at 11:14:19
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 7:57:39
Eric.
You just don't get it.
Maybe you never had it.
Perhaps you once had it, but have quickly forgotten what it's like to have it.
You assume too much about me as you attempt to see me through eyes that never will. I exist to you only in words posted electronically. You don't even know how long it takes for me to type those words.
I am feeling better. I can read whole paragraphs now, but still not consecutively. Interestingly, I can write ten if I had to.
Anyway, you still make the mistake of judging the illness of others based upon your own experience, and expect them to be able to mirror your abilities. You expect people to chip away at their depression when they might not be able to even lift the hammer.
Depression has many faces. It takes an expert to be able to recognize them all. No two depressions look alike just as no two brains function alike. I am no expert and try not of quantify the suffering of others, especially publicly. What would motivate you to so with me? Am I too unintelligent to have thought to chip away at my illness as you have yours? Perhaps I am just lazy?
> Are you going to school? Do you have a job? Do you volunteer? Do you answer personal ads on Craigslist? Do you take dancing lessons? Have you hiked a 14er?
You just don't get it.
> > Can you better describe this experience? I would >like to compare it to what I have seen in others.
> I thought it was a "pervasive mistake...to attempt to compare their experience with mental illness to those of others"
It is. You missed the satire.
You are very knowledgeable about psychopharmacology and often give good advice about prescriptions for somatic treatments. I need as many ideas as I can get. However, what I don't need are prescriptions for making adjustments to my psyche and how to use that psyche to develop strategies to cope with my depressive illness. You don't have a clue.
I'm sure your advice to me would be appropriate for some other people - just not me. For me, you were wrong.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 22, 2012, at 11:20:26
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by Raisinb on August 22, 2012, at 10:57:01
> Yes, and all my therapists tell me not to be so hard on myself. Not that it's that easy. I can't wake up and not be profoundly disappointed and angry at myself for not meeting my own expectations,
My guess is that you are not expecting of yourself any more than a healthy person would expect of themselves. Be angry at your illness and not at yourself. You are not the culprit. You are not the irresponsible one. You are not the talentless one, You are not the lazy one. You are not the unaccomplished one. You are not your illness, despite it affecting every waking moment of your life.
> I wish there was an award or something for surviving with years of depressive illness. We all deserve it,
BIG TIME !!!!
- Scott
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 12:54:22
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 22, 2012, at 11:14:19
>you just don't get it.
That's a lazy statement.
>You assume too much about me as you attempt to see >me through eyes that never will.
I assume nothing about you. And, wow, that was poetic.
>Anyway, you still make the mistake of judging >the illness of others based upon your own >experience, and expect them to be able to mirror >your abilities
Don't be silly. People stay where they want to, I have no say.
>You expect people to chip away at their >depression when they might not be able to even >lift the hammer
I expect nothing. I only give advice.
> Are you going to school? Do you have a job? Do >you volunteer? Do you answer personal ads on >Craigslist? Do you take dancing lessons? Have >you hiked a 14er?
>You just don't get it.
Just answer the damn questions and quit being so defensive.
>I'm sure your advice to me would be appropriate >for some other people - just not me. For me, you >were wrong.The only thing I was wrong about was in underestimating how defensive you can be ;)
Eric
Posted by Alexei on August 22, 2012, at 14:09:36
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Alexei, posted by Raisinb on August 22, 2012, at 11:00:42
> What did you change your approach to? How did you do things differently? I often still get stuck in this bind. It's really tough not to for me.
First, I was absolutely convinced that I could "fix" my depression by filling every waking minute with productive activity ... school, work, outside jobs, athletics.
Obviously that sounds great, but not to the extreme that i took it, there was no way I could keep up that insane pace. I was running from myself, and crashed.
Now, I can see things differently. Peace and happiness will never come from me trying to achieve and conquer what normal society says I should. I've come to see that normal society and lifestyles are insane.
I still do a lot of things, but because I want to, not because of outside pressures and expectations. I hope this makes sense.
Posted by Alexei on August 22, 2012, at 14:16:17
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Alexei, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 7:59:45
Phidippus... Ive been reading thru lots of threads, and you seem like you're doing quite well. May I ask what your med regime is?
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 14:51:32
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by Alexei on August 22, 2012, at 14:16:17
I take:
1200 mg of Lithium
60 mg of Viibryd
10 mg of Abilify
2 mg of KlonopinEric
Posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 14:54:40
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 12:54:22
> People stay where they want to
What people? Does this mean everybody, including the mentally challenged and those with severe brain injuries? What about people in comas? Are you saying that, for example, people who are mentally challenged don't go to college because they don't want to, because it sure seems like you are. Or are the mentally ill the only ones who stay where they want to, in your eyes?
Tomatheus
Posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 15:37:22
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 14:54:40
> Does this mean everybody, including the mentally >challenged and those with severe brain injuries?
Stephen Hawking.
People in comas? Yeah, I meant them too, f*ck*ng vegetables can wake up whenever they want.
If a mentally challenged person hasn't gone to college its because they don't want to. Nothing is stopping them.
John Nash
In my eyes, the mentally challenged can do whatever they want. That means stay put or become mega porn stars, whatever.
Beethoven
Eric
Posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:34:48
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 22, 2012, at 11:14:19
> Eric.
>
> You just don't get it.
>
> Maybe you never had it.
>
> Perhaps you once had it, but have quickly forgotten what it's like to have it.
>
> You assume too much about me as you attempt to see me through eyes that never will. I exist to you only in words posted electronically. You don't even know how long it takes for me to type those words.
>
> I am feeling better. I can read whole paragraphs now, but still not consecutively. Interestingly, I can write ten if I had to.
>
> Anyway, you still make the mistake of judging the illness of others based upon your own experience, and expect them to be able to mirror your abilities. You expect people to chip away at their depression when they might not be able to even lift the hammer.
>
> Depression has many faces. It takes an expert to be able to recognize them all. No two depressions look alike just as no two brains function alike. I am no expert and try not of quantify the suffering of others, especially publicly. What would motivate you to so with me? Am I too unintelligent to have thought to chip away at my illness as you have yours? Perhaps I am just lazy?
>
> > Are you going to school? Do you have a job? Do you volunteer? Do you answer personal ads on Craigslist? Do you take dancing lessons? Have you hiked a 14er?
>
> You just don't get it.
>
> > > Can you better describe this experience? I would >like to compare it to what I have seen in others.
>
> > I thought it was a "pervasive mistake...to attempt to compare their experience with mental illness to those of others"
>
> It is. You missed the satire.
>
> You are very knowledgeable about psychopharmacology and often give good advice about prescriptions for somatic treatments. I need as many ideas as I can get. However, what I don't need are prescriptions for making adjustments to my psyche and how to use that psyche to develop strategies to cope with my depressive illness. You don't have a clue.
>
> I'm sure your advice to me would be appropriate for some other people - just not me. For me, you were wrong.
>
> - ScottThere is a spectrum of the degree and variability to this disease. There are times that turning on the computer is as hard for me as what running a marathon is to someone else.
If you suggest that someone can simply ignore any disease with "mental powers", you have not experienced what it is like to be at the more difficult part of the spectrum - and no judgement should be made. Are we not trying to change the public's perception of mental illness - it can be a serious disease.
When people offer what they percieve as "advice" to those who are already especially sensitive and hard on themselves, to be very critical and demeaning.
Posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:45:39
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Tomatheus, posted by phidippus on August 22, 2012, at 15:37:22
> > Does this mean everybody, including the mentally >challenged and those with severe brain injuries?
>
> Stephen Hawking.
>
> People in comas? Yeah, I meant them too, f*ck*ng vegetables can wake up whenever they want.
>
> If a mentally challenged person hasn't gone to college its because they don't want to. Nothing is stopping them.
>
> John Nash
>
> In my eyes, the mentally challenged can do whatever they want. That means stay put or become mega porn stars, whatever.
>
> Beethoven
>
> EricEric,
I am feeling like your posts are attacking and very offensive. I may need to notify the board to block this discussion. I should not have started it.
Posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 20:05:36
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:45:39
> Eric,
> I am feeling like your posts are attacking and very offensive. I may need to notify the board to block this discussion. I should not have started it.Alchemy,
I liked the way this discussion started off with your original post and some of the posts that initially followed, and I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread with my reply to Eric/Phidippus. I probably shouldn't have escalated the situation with the post that I wrote. However, I think that you made some good comments in your original post, and I do hope that you can find a way to prepare for a career in medical research, whether or not you're ready to start taking the needed courses at this point in time.
Tomatheus
Posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2012, at 20:58:26
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » alchemy, posted by Tomatheus on August 22, 2012, at 20:05:36
I have found that to remain inactive is courting depression. I remember when a pdoc said to me as long as you remain anxious I know you are okay. Now I know what he meant as that is what keeps me moving. Yesterday rode 6 miles on bike in pouring rain as I refused to let something defeat like the weather. I was always called a survivor. I must be as no younger people were out in a yellow slicker getting drenched. A therapist once said you must leave the house daily and do something. I remember this board telling me for years to volunteer but I volunteerd before Nursing. So to me this would be going backward so now sell new items on Ebay with husband. Our source of income. Phillipa
Posted by phidippus on August 23, 2012, at 7:23:23
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by alchemy on August 22, 2012, at 18:45:39
You're right. I got defensive and went overboard. Please except my apologies.
Eric
Posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 17:22:38
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » alchemy, posted by phidippus on August 23, 2012, at 7:23:23
I didn't think Phillipus did anything so awful. Maybe s/he got defensive-- but Scott was being pretty accusatory.
Maybe no one else feels this, but for myself, but I don't so much like Scott's saying that he is so far below his intellectual level, when many people here have acknowledged him as very intellectually sophisticated and informed. Many people look to him for guidance and judgment, and I wonder if it doesn't reflect some depressive sense of perfectionism that he believes he has fallen so far below his level. And it is not kind to others who admire him so much.
The length of time it takes to write a sentence or paragraph isn't a measure of intellectual ability, or performance-- the content of the sentence is- Many people write slowly or revise over and over and over.
And many people don't have the intellectual fortitude to study and read pages of intellectual material under any circumstances.
I don't know Scott-- I don't know his level of achievement or his underlying ability, but I 'm not clear at all how he become so fixed on the idea that he has so underachieved compared to the potential that he has.
All of us-- have failed to achieve our dreams, and all of us are less that the self that we can imagine.
and I don't mean all of on Babble-- I mean all of us in the world.
Wilfull
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 18:16:15
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists, posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 17:22:38
> I don't know Scott-- I don't know his level of achievement or his underlying ability,
Bingo.
Why should you even give a damn? There is nothing so special about me that you should focus so much of your attention on me.
- Scott
Posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 18:54:08
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Willful, posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 18:16:15
the reason I might focus is that you are someone I'm acquainted with, whose postings have an effect on me. I clearly don't know you, as you pointed out, except through your words here. But those aren't such a negligible way either.
I'm not sure why you've been so offended by Phillipus' posts, so maybe you could clarify.
Willful
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists, posted by Willful on August 23, 2012, at 18:54:08
> I'm not sure why you've been so offended by Phillipus' posts, so maybe you could clarify.
Are you asking me to explain the workings of my psyche?
I still don't understand your need to understand me. I am not that important.
- Scott
Posted by europerep on August 24, 2012, at 15:06:09
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » phidippus, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 7:10:18
> I hope you would agree that for some people, their depression is disabling and does indeed stop them from doing almost everything.
I think it is worth noting here that it was you, Scott, who chose to challenge phidippus on his views on depression, its impact on someone's "performance levels" and so on, by posting the above remark. You cannot expect to open up a debate without having your own views challenged. And, if you make your case based on the experience of someone with depression, then it's only logical that people are going to ask questions about that person, even if that person happens to be you. Saying that people don't know how long it takes you to write a post, and then, when people want to know the answer, telling them it's not important is not how debating works.
Incidentally, I disagree with much of what phidippus said, but that's a different story.
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2012, at 6:23:09
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by europerep on August 24, 2012, at 15:06:09
Hi.
> telling them it's not important is not how debating works
I did not say that "it" was not important. I said that "I" was not important.
I really didn't find this exchange to be much of a debate at all. If you would like to identify what it was that piqued my interest, you can find it in the use of quotation marks early in the thread. Perhaps I am too sensitive to such things.
- Scott
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:11:47
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » Raisinb, posted by SLS on August 21, 2012, at 23:02:31
> > I've been in states where I was so frantically doing everything I could think of to defeat my depression that I induced way more dysphoria because I was constantly beating myself up for not doing more or different things. Depression is great for inducing binds like that.
>
> Have you always had high expectations of yourself?
>
> I did.
>
> Perfectionism can be depressogenic.
>
> At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
>
> I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.
>
>
> - ScottThis is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others? I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
I'm probably just being narcissistic. But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
What does that mean? Who's rule of reason? Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable? If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize, and instead take your life into your own hands, are you being unreasonable? Was Ernest Hemingway unreasonable for blowing his brains out because ECT had robbed him of the ability to write?
I don't know. Sometimes (or more recently), the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
Posted by SLS on August 26, 2012, at 7:48:57
In reply to Re: Too bad we aren't well enough to be scientists » SLS, posted by g_g_g_unit on August 25, 2012, at 7:11:47
> > At some point, I realized just how great an achievement it was to survive with this illness. It was a bitter pill to swallow to lose my intellect and operate at a level way beneath those around me.
> >
> > I push. I push. I push. I constantly push. It grows tiresome, but I keep pushing. I often succeed. Succeed in what? I succeed in trying. Failure to achieve the goals set forth by others is okay with me. It has to be. I must acknowledge that my illness places upon me limitations that most of the people around me do not have. Thus, my expectation of myself is to try to use all of what little God gives me to work with.> This is something I struggle with. My psychiatrist (who I concurrently see for psychodynamic therapy) noted that my 'self-knowledge' of what I had suffered through was not sufficient enough for me; that I needed external validation of my suffering.
Most of your validation must come from within, especially because so few people around you understand the degree of pain and impairment you are suffering on a daily basis for years at a time. I hope you find validation here. You try so hard. I was fortunate to have doctors from various research facilities who validated me and had an understanding of how debilitating my illness is and how hard I try to remain alive and functioning independently.
> He's right. But then again, am I as well? How is it not possible to compare yourself to the achievements of others?
It is difficult not to compare. Perhaps it is not such a bad thing to compare, as long as you don't judge yourself critically as a result of that comparison. Perhaps "acknowledgment" is a better word to use than "comparison". It would be unrealistic not to acknowledge the achievements of others. It would be equally unrealistic not to acknowledge your challenges and your own achievements in working with them. Acceptance is difficult, but healthy. However, denial can be dangerous when realization hits. It can lead to episodes of suicidality. Discovery is also important. It is helpful to discover what it is that you *can* do.
> I don't think most people credit suffering (and its endurance) as an achievement, unless you survived the Holocaust (I'm Jewish, so I hope that doesn't cause offence) or cancer or the like, or otherwise achieved something notable in spite of your illness (Eric's example of John Nash). There is an evident ideological bias in who society is willing to accept as palatable victims or sufferers or martyrs or saints.
Yes. Mental illness has historically been considered to be a sign of weakness, cowardice, or defect. Such things are not celebrated.
> I'm probably just being narcissistic.
I don't understand how you could come to this conclusion. I don't see narcissism in you. Quite the contrary. I'm not a psychiatrist, though. Perhaps I am missing something.
> But, as much as I love and respect my psychiatrist, I sometimes hesitate (to put it gently) when he, well, implies that part of my inability to get well derives from a 'lack of effort' on my part, and that, ultimately, man must consign himself to the rule of reason.
I would LOL if this weren't such a sad thing for you to be confronted with. If the dysfunction in your neurobiology were successfully treated, you couldn't prevent yourself from getting well no matter how hard you tried.
> What does that mean? Who's rule of reason?
Not mine. But then again, who am I?
> Is all suicide, by default, unreasonable?
No. I believe in autoeuthanasia. However, it is absolutely true that MDD or BD are mind-altering illnesses that affect perception and judgment. It would be difficult to filter out this neurobiological state to be able to evaluate one's fitness to make such an irrevocable decision.
> If you fail to accept an illness that compromises your ability to self-actualize,
I LOVE your statement here. It is almost impossible to self-actualize and experience the joys of peak experiences in such states. Depression is a thief.
> the gap between who I had intended to be, and who I've become (?) makes me feel less intent on continuing. I think it's a profoundly difficult thing to come to terms with and I admire you for it Scott, but I question how much more fight I have in me.
:-(
Try to hold closely to your soul the memories of what life can be without depression, anxiety, and OCD - assuming that you were ever fortunate enough to know such a time. I truly believe that it is my memories of remission that helped me to keep going. I knew the potential rewards of persistence. I guard these memories.
I really want to see you well. Please don't give up.
- Scott
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