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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by huxley on April 26, 2012, at 6:22:55
In reply to so what's the answer? (nm), posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
stop prescribing them. stop giving them to children.
Posted by SLS on April 26, 2012, at 7:06:12
In reply to so what's the answer? (nm), posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
Yes. What's the answer?
Let us get rid of all psychotropic drugs.
Now what?
What's the next step?
It is easy to find problems. Let's hear some alternatives.
- Scott
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 9:55:31
In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
What do you think of benzodiazepines for longterm anxiety treatment? Have you found any new research about them,good or bad? Specifically,clonazepam.Thanks.
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 11:56:05
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 9:55:31
> What do you think of benzodiazepines for longterm anxiety treatment? Have you found any new research about them,good or bad? Specifically,clonazepam.Thanks.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 12:35:59
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 11:56:05
Scary stuff,that.Makes me want to taper,taper,taper.But I do believe I will be the one with the excruciating withdrawal.This belief,maybe erroneous,however,it keeps me tethered to the chemical.
Posted by Hugh on April 26, 2012, at 12:43:38
In reply to so what's the answer? (nm), posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 3:12:05
Ketamine, for one. Won't you be trying it soon?
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:09:59
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 12:35:59
> Scary stuff,that.Makes me want to taper,taper,taper.But I do believe I will be the one with the excruciating withdrawal.This belief,maybe erroneous,however,it keeps me tethered to the chemical.
>
"Excruciating" would be an understatement. I tried tapering a number of times, failing totally. After 7+ years, latter daily amounts of 12 mg or more, and a final downing of perhaps 30 mg or more (the end of the bottle), I went cold turkey. It was the worst two weeks of my life. So, I don't recommend that route, for sure.Talking 7 years later - am I glad i did it? Damn right! I might still feel like crap, but at least I don't feel like crap AND have a monkey on my back.
What I'm saying is that if you're gonna stop benzos, prepare for it to suck.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 13:33:05
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:09:59
"monkey on my back",you hit the nail on the head.These days,I dont feel bad on the klonopin,I do worry about years passing and then I dont feel so good on it.Yes,"prepare for it to suck"-Ive had a small taste of that,and do I ever dread it,but you cant go over it,you must go through it.Question is,when is a good time in my life to go through it?
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:54:29
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 13:33:05
> "monkey on my back",you hit the nail on the head.These days,I dont feel bad on the klonopin,I do worry about years passing and then I dont feel so good on it.Yes,"prepare for it to suck"-Ive had a small taste of that,and do I ever dread it,but you cant go over it,you must go through it.Question is,when is a good time in my life to go through it?
---------------------------------------
From what I've observed over the years (I'm 59), people stop their unwanted (and I emphasize unwanted) addictions only when they're ready, and for their own reasons. For me, it was when I realized that I was a captive of both the meds and the doctors who prescribed them. Some can taper off, some can go cold turkey, and some require formal inpatient rehab. Quitting is only half the problem - staying off being the other half. Seems that the first year or so is the worst.It's very strange how I was able to quit psych meds and cigarette smoking, but I can't get a handle on diet and exercise, even though I'm overweight, have high blood pressure and am borderline diabetic). Our motivations are very much our own.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 14:16:54
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:54:29
And I am able to diet and exercise,hike 3-4 miles a day,7 miles once a month.I do this to feel healthy,and I desire to be fit.However,the benzo is just so,so difficult,and I know it's psychological and physical.I do see myself stopping one day,I will do it.Cant believe such a little pill holds me captive.Btw,just start walking,any distance,everyday.Its easy,and may develop into a habit.
Posted by sigismund on April 26, 2012, at 14:57:42
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 13:09:59
> Damn right! I might still feel like crap, but at least I don't feel like crap AND have a monkey on my back.
Yeah, that has been my experience with certain substances too.
Posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 14:57:50
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 14:16:54
> Btw,just start walking,any distance,everyday.Its easy,and may develop into a habit.
That's one thing that I do do. When I got the dog in 2006, walking in the park was part of the plan. Of course, living in the Pacific Northwet can be problematical during the long rainy season for walking, as well as SAD.
Posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 15:56:15
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 26, 2012, at 14:57:50
Dogs are great! Yes,you do have to contend with the elements there.There's a few days a year I dont get out,but mostly I do.
Posted by linkadge on April 26, 2012, at 19:39:00
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by gadchik on April 26, 2012, at 15:56:15
There was a CBC radio (canadian) show about this article today. Unfortunately all they did was bring in psychiatrist to push the whole safe/effective deal.
The problem is that the 'consensus' of the medical community is that depression is still a treatable medical disorder. They want people feeling that it is safe to see a psychiatrist. As such, I think the case for antidepressants gets distorted, because people feel that if antidepressants are shown for what they are, people won't see a psychiatrist, or get help.
I think there should be push to disect psychiatry and antidepressants. Psychiatry should go back to looking for additional ways to help people so that people don't just see psychiatry = SSRIs.
Linakdge
Posted by Phillipa on April 26, 2012, at 20:42:27
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by linkadge on April 26, 2012, at 19:39:00
I saw my pdoc today asked if was true about ad's he hemmed and hawed as old school. I asked about poop out also. He said that true some take a med and it works and then stops working. He's an addictions pdoc so he doesn't believe in addictive meds but says my dose of benzos is low and has no problems with me continuing them. I asked to raise the lexapro to 5mg. As told him I had on own for a few days at a time. He said I could if I wanted but give it time. I said how long he said at least a month. He believes in low doses of all meds. Phillipa
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
In reply to Re: so what's the answer?, posted by SLS on April 26, 2012, at 7:06:12
hi scott-
i don't know what the answers are. i'm just frustrated and scared and not getting better.
your post reminds me of john lennon; 'there's no problems, only solutions,,,' and! tony robbins; 'focus 95% on the solution and 5% on the problem.' just wish depression was that easy...
as you know i've tried ect, several drugs, talk therapy, group therapy, in/out-patient over the past 2+ years. sorta waiting to try ketamine now. but, i'm losing faith in psychiatry.
one thing i'd like to try, if i had the $, would be to go to a long-term facility out in nature. these do exist. kind of like the old school way of treating depression, pre shock and meds. many of the current ones are even 'working' farms where you have chores, therapy, meds (if needed), etc. most of these are also not 'lock-down' places either. the recommended stay is 9 to 12 months if you have severe mental issues. then, if need be, they can set you up at a half-way house.
i realize this old school model is for rich people because the cost of these places is about $20k to $30k per month and not covered by insurance!
i have really good insurance. but, all they offer me is; therapy, pdoc/meds, acute crisis in-patient, and out-patient/partial hospitalization. (i know this is a lot compared to those w/out insurance or insurance that provides less coverage.)
humans are creature of habit. i think depression for some people can become habit forming. it has for me. it's now been over 2 years of me mostly laying in bed, showering maybe once or twice a week and shaving even less. i have completely cut myself off from my old life. i was a high-functioning person before i went down mentally after several life stressors 2 years ago.
i called my insurance one time and we spent quite a bit of time looking for some type of facility like the one's i mentioned above. no luck. the lady said too bad you don't have an addiction, because there were plenty of half-way homes, bucolic ranches, etc. that allowed unlimited stays for recovery. i've actually been thinking of doing just that and use my 1mg per day klonopin as an excuse to get into a environment where i will have daily activities for an extended time to change my current habits and thinking.
depression is so unique to each individual. the current model of focusing mostly on medication works for some, but not for others.
so scott, to wrap-up, there is one long-winded 'alternative' i wish was available to more of us that don't seem to respond to meds.
john
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:29:02
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » JohnLA, posted by Hugh on April 26, 2012, at 12:43:38
hi hugh-
yes, i am waiting to possibly try either an iv infusion of ketamine at ucla or going down to a doc in san diego who prescribes it off label in either a nasal spray or sub-lingually.
i was supposed to go to ucla a few weeks ago for an initial consultation, but couldn't get myself down there.
i'll keep everyone posted when i get going on all this.
thanks for remembering.
john
Posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 23:08:14
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » SLS, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
here are the type of places i was talking about;
'if i were a rich man...'
john
Posted by SLS on April 27, 2012, at 6:27:59
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » SLS, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
> hi scott-
>
> i don't know what the answers are. i'm just frustrated and scared and not getting better.
>
> your post reminds me of john lennon; 'there's no problems, only solutions,,,' and! tony robbins; 'focus 95% on the solution and 5% on the problem.' just wish depression was that easy...
>
> as you know i've tried ect, several drugs, talk therapy, group therapy, in/out-patient over the past 2+ years.Yes. I have been through all of those things, too. It is indeed scary to have so many treatment modalities fail to produce results.
> sorta waiting to try ketamine now. but, i'm losing faith in psychiatry.
I never lost faith in psychiatry per se. I believe that the majority of research institutions are genuinely interested in finding answers. I did, however, lose faith that psychiatry would produce an effective set of new treatments that would have cured me during my lifetime.
> one thing i'd like to try, if i had the $, would be to go to a long-term facility out in nature. these do exist. kind of like the old school way of treating depression, pre shock and meds. many of the current ones are even 'working' farms where you have chores, therapy, meds (if needed), etc. most of these are also not 'lock-down' places either. the recommended stay is 9 to 12 months if you have severe mental issues. then, if need be, they can set you up at a half-way house.
I have been part of this type of residential program in the past. It helped set me up to live independently.
My grandfather had a "nervous breakdown" in the 1940s. He spent two weeks at a retreat in the mountains. Apparently, he came back feeling better.
> humans are creature of habit. i think depression for some people can become habit forming.
That's a great insight.
> it has for me. it's now been over 2 years of me mostly laying in bed, showering maybe once or twice a week and shaving even less. i have completely cut myself off from my old life. i was a high-functioning person before i went down mentally after several life stressors 2 years ago.
I can relate to this. After 20 years of sequestration from society, my very first foray into the reintroduction of socializing came with online newsgroup communities and Psycho-Babble. Later, I connected to society in real life when I began the residential program and entered a partial care milieu.
> i called my insurance one time and we spent quite a bit of time looking for some type of facility like the one's i mentioned above. no luck. the lady said too bad you don't have an addiction, because there were plenty of half-way homes, bucolic ranches, etc. that allowed unlimited stays for recovery. i've actually been thinking of doing just that and use my 1mg per day klonopin as an excuse to get into a environment where i will have daily activities for an extended time to change my current habits and thinking.I admire your positive attitude and your drive to find constructive, life-enhancing alternatives.
> depression is so unique to each individual.
> the current model of focusing mostly on medication works for some, but not for others.
Part of the problem is that the word "depression" is used to label a wide variety of phenomena. To use the term "Major Depressive Disorder" helps to identify one set of depressions that have common elements in presentation and applied treatment methods.
> so scott, to wrap-up, there is one long-winded 'alternative' i wish was available to more of us that don't seem to respond to meds.
Your post was not at all long-winded.
Depression sucks. It obliterates people's lives and condemns one to a painful altered state of consciousness.
I wish I had a magic wand.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 27, 2012, at 6:30:54
In reply to @ scott again. alternatives, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 23:08:14
> here are the type of places i was talking about;
>
> http://www.artausa.org/
>
> 'if i were a rich man...'
>
> john
Easter Seals is an alternative program.
- Scott
Posted by gadchik on April 27, 2012, at 9:09:34
In reply to @ scott again. alternatives, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 23:08:14
These places you speak of remind me of Abram Hoffer's ideas in the 1950s or 60s about treating mentally ill pts in a better setting than the institutions of the day.He also believed in nutrition and other non mainstream treatments.The documentary "Feed Your Head",was about him and I found it very interesting.And he was a psychiatrist!
Posted by bleauberry on April 27, 2012, at 17:59:08
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by linkadge on April 26, 2012, at 19:39:00
Well, I think with some people ADs do more harm than good, in others they do more good than harm, in others they are miracles, and in others they cause suicide.
It is nice to see researchers taking a look at this topic though. Because those of us who have experienced what might be called a post-ssri syndrome which is either very long lasting or permanent, we know the meds changed something in a profound way that when all was said and done did more harm than good. Caused more harm that didn't previously exist, on top of the already existing harm. Just sort of observing over the years comments from people on web forums the ssris are almost always the guilty ones when this happens. That's one of the reasons I favor balanced approaches that include equal amounts of norepinephrine compared to serotonin because for some reason that bizarre stuff is side stepped that way.
But anyway, I think we as patients already know a lot more than the researchers do because we are on the front lines battling for our lives and this stuff just isn't our career or our interest or whatever it's maybe the biggest struggle of our lives and it matters a lot. We see stuff before they do. We solve problems, sometimes, before they do. I'm just glad to see some of them asking important questions.
Posted by gadchik on April 27, 2012, at 18:13:02
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by bleauberry on April 27, 2012, at 17:59:08
I always like to read what you post.I feel that you know so much about all things,mental health-psych meds,herbs,nutrition,alternative medicine.Ive bookmarked or written down many of your ideas.thanks!!
Posted by linkadge on April 27, 2012, at 19:34:45
In reply to Re: so what's the answer? » SLS, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 22:24:58
I think for me, the shift has become from looking externally for hope to looking interally.
When you're caught in that mindset, all you can believe is that somethink "out there" will make things right.
I'm definately doing better off meds. Been on every antidepressant out there, mood stabilizers, antipsychotics, benzodiazapines, stimulants, you name it.
Its all the same. I am looking for something external to fix an internal problem.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on April 27, 2012, at 19:37:05
In reply to @ scott again. alternatives, posted by JohnLA on April 26, 2012, at 23:08:14
And yes, depression is addictive. Most of us spend so much time there, we don't want to get better. If we got better, we feel that the suffering would be in vain.
Instead of just moving on and letting go of the past, we want something that makes the suffering make sense. To know that we are chemically imballanced, legitimitizes it all.
Linkadge
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