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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:02:09
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 16:18:51
> Ok i feel ya. Lets throw neurontin in. Kidding
>
> Seizures dont sound too fun.
>
> I found this on drugs.com
>
> bupropion ↔ phenelzine
> MAJOR INTERACTION
> Applies to: Wellbutrin (bupropion), Nardil (phenelzine)
> CONTRAINDICATED: According to the manufacturer, the acute toxicity of bupropion may be potentiated by coadministration of monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The mechanism of interaction has not been described.
>
> Oh well, i just dont know how to keep my head above water these following couple weeks if im going to have to go a more defensive route. :(I checked four different drug interaction engines, and three gave negative reports, indicating that the severity of the potential interaction was extremely serious. The most detailed report was at DrugDigest.
From Drug Digest:
BUPROPION HYDROCHLORIDE (in Wellbutrin Tablets) may interact with PHENELZINE (in Phenelzine Tablets)
Bupropion has been shown to cause seizures in some people, especially when used in high doses. Although the cause of this potential interaction is not clearly understood, the risk of experiencing a seizure is even greater when bupropion and phenelzine are taken together. Other side effects that can occur with the use of bupropion include agitation, confusion, nausea and vomiting, headaches, and sleep disturbances. Bupropion and phenelzine should not be used at the same time. Wait at least 2 weeks or longer after stopping therapy with phenelzine before starting therapy with bupropion.Ask your healthcare provider about these drugs and this potential interaction as soon as possible.
This interaction is poorly documented and is considered major in severity.
Lar
Posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:06:27
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » larryhoover, posted by SLS on June 16, 2011, at 16:42:34
> Hi Larry.
>
> I took Wellbutrin 900mg for over a month without any side effects other than it made me feel moderately worse.
>
> I took Parnate 80mg in combination with Wellbutrin 300mg without side effects other than the addition of Wellbutrin made me feel moderately worse.
>
> Parnate isn't Nardil. Is Nardil more apt to affect the kinetics of Wellbutrin than Parnate?
>
>
> - ScottI really don't know, Scott. From what I read about the pharmacokinetics and modes of metabolic processing and excretion, it looks like this is an idiosyncratic interaction. I suspect that there have been case reports filed with the FDA and/or the manufacturer, indicating that the problem can occur. It's not predicted by receptor activity or direct drug effects. I suspect it's a quirk of liver function, i.e. a genetic (un)luck of the draw.
Lar
Posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 17:25:03
In reply to Re: Inactive ingredients/enteric-coating:do yourself » SLS, posted by larryhoover on June 16, 2011, at 17:06:27
I will definitely play it safe. The main motive is that if something goes wrong, i will once again have other people tell me what med to take.
I dont want that, i want independence, i want longterm recovery, i want nardil.
One thing i did notice withdrawing from effexor is it got alot harder to get to sleep. Not great that i have to burn out my sleep meds now before nardils well known insomnia. Trazodone and neurontin are coming in, i hope one or both of them will keep me in green.I wanted to switch to trazodone for a while when i was still in hospital, with the motive of not burning out the weak antipsychotic i took. Of course the doc knew better. Now i did almost completely burn it out.
Posted by jedi on June 16, 2011, at 22:54:55
In reply to ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 16, 2011, at 17:25:03
> I will definitely play it safe.
I'm not going to suggest that anybody plays Russian Roulette with Nardil. I have combined 90mg Nardil with 300mg of bupropion without a problem. Like Larry said, for certain people it could be very dangerous.
Jedi...
"Combinations with other antidepressants
We have found all antidepressants that do not involve significant serotonin reuptake inhibition (e.g., bupropion, trazodone, and tricyclics other than clomipramine) can be safely administered with MAOIs. Combination therapy is worth considering because it may be effective when other approaches have failed."
...Vol. 1, No.6 /June 2002
MAO inhibitors:
An option worth trying in treatment-resistant casesJonathan O. Cole, MD
Senior consultant in psychopharmacology
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical SchoolJ. Alexander Bodkin, MD
Chief, Clinical Psychopharmacology Research Program
McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA
Assistant professor of psychiatry, Harvard Medical School
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 7:30:02
In reply to Re: ill play safe! » Lamdage, posted by jedi on June 16, 2011, at 22:54:55
So whats left is methylfolate, omega3, excercise and the support of friends. No drug interactions with these^^
Last time i went off antidepressants i didnt immediately fall into deep depression, either. I wont feel anywhere near good but ill make it through. Safely
Posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2011, at 9:17:25
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 7:30:02
So Lamdage,
How many washout days do you have left now, factoring back the Wellbutrin.
Your signature says adhd, the dreamy mild kind. I have that too. I call it either ad(h)d inattentive or add inattentive. Some write ADD-l
When I was off everything recently, the ADD-l was most prominent. With emsam it's improved somewhat.
How you doing today?
fb
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
In reply to Re: ill play safe! » Lamdage, posted by floatingbridge on June 17, 2011, at 9:17:25
> So Lamdage,
>
> How many washout days do you have left now, factoring back the Wellbutrin.
>
> Your signature says adhd, the dreamy mild kind. I have that too. I call it either ad(h)d inattentive or add inattentive. Some write ADD-l
>
> When I was off everything recently, the ADD-l was most prominent. With emsam it's improved somewhat.
>
> How you doing today?
>Hey thanks for checking in,
i just came home from a relaxing run through nature.
Hm still some days to come. Im at 150 since today and will stay for the weekend. monday ill go to 75 and then start low dose phenelzine somewhere wednesday.So far ive noticed sleep got a bit of a problem and anxiety around people is up. Other than that im not horrible.
Yes thats what my psychologist called it. Inattentive and not hyperactive.
Its not too much of a problem for me. I find it very hard sometimes to listen to someone talking less than interesting stuff.
I think my "i dont give a hoot" radar goes off quicker than that of others. Thats all :DWhats your experience?
Posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:20:00
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
Well yeah.. its not hard for me to listen to friends i value. I am forgetful with errands and stuff though
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 3:04:56
In reply to Re: ill play safe!, posted by Lamdage on June 17, 2011, at 14:09:03
Lamdage,
Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:27:41
In reply to To Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 3:04:56
> Lamdage,
>
> Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
>
> Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
>
> Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
>
> Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
>
> I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
>
> And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
>
> I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
>
>Hey,
thank you.. well if experieced nardils hardcore efficiency before, i just want to get that "like a bird" feeling back badly.
It still did not arrive yet and i weined myself off most AD i was taking.If its not coming today (it was supposed to come yesterday) im gonna get pissed off hardcore. I too have been looking for ways to obtain nardil, for like 2 months and let me tell you i got VERY angry in the process and i feel rage arising in this moment again. Its typical german idiocy. "discontinued due to severe side effects". Ya right, as if Parnate had less side effects. I have wasted one year.. thanks to a whole bunch of various idiots, ranging from family members, to doctors and myself, because i was naive enough to run in the open knife my family has held towards me.
Anyway. When i can say sth. about the sources ill get back to you.
Lamdage
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:28:27
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:27:41
and let me tell you my sense of self got RAPED
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 7:31:36
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 6:27:41
> > Lamdage,
> >
> > Firstly,I must say that I contemplate for such time a trial with Phenelzine.
> >
> > Like you and many others, "conventional" AD's make me flat and do a lot of harm than good.I'm also treatment resistant and I'm in this hell for 12 years now.
> >
> > Being from Eastern Europe I have no chance to get my hands on MAOI's,in the conventional ways, all being banned for years.In the last 2 weeks I searched a lot over the net, to find some online pharmacy on Europe who sell Phenelzine and I didn't find relevant sources.
> >
> > Can you help me reccomending me some places (via Babble mail)?
> >
> > I also appreciate your brilliant ideea of reconstructing the original Nardil formula.Such a shame that they changed the compounds so that now phenelzine is more rapidly absorbed and it favors the MAO-B inhibition.
> >
> > And even you're depressed, man you have some mental energy !I wish I could have half of your initiative!
> >
> > I wish you all the best and i'm looking forward to see your Nardil trial!
> >
> >
>
> Hey,
>
> thank you.. well if experieced nardils hardcore efficiency before, i just want to get that "like a bird" feeling back badly.
> It still did not arrive yet and i weined myself off most AD i was taking.
>
> If its not coming today (it was supposed to come yesterday) im gonna get pissed off hardcore. I too have been looking for ways to obtain nardil, for like 2 months and let me tell you i got VERY angry in the process and i feel rage arising in this moment again. Its typical german idiocy. "discontinued due to severe side effects". Ya right, as if Parnate had less side effects. I have wasted one year.. thanks to a whole bunch of various idiots, ranging from family members, to doctors and myself, because i was naive enough to run in the open knife my family has held towards me.
>
> Anyway. When i can say sth. about the sources ill get back to you.
>
>
> Lamdage
>You're so lucky that you're experienced Nardil efficacy before, so at least you know that is hope, real HOPE.
My only moment of bliss, normalcy, whatever, was with Anafranil, but it was transient for a couple of times.That moments were the only good things that happen in a decade.I mean, I got married, I have a beautiful wife, a kind - she's an angel...but all these were good thing that I feel that happen in a dream.The Anafranil Days were rock solid memories.I want back that.
If Germany which seems more open minded than other countries from UE, you had so much problems and you had to endure hell to get your hands on Nardil, for me it seems nearly impossible to have the chance to initiate an Phenelzine trial.Shrinks from my country jump from their chairs yelling "devil!" when they hear about MAOI's.
Anyways, I hope I'll find some online pharma with your help, meantime i'll check again and again Google :)).
I'm very curious about your trial, looking forward for you getting well.
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:50:44
In reply to Re: To Lamdage » Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 7:31:36
Yes there should be good times ahead, indeed. Im just very very impatient/angry that it takes so long.
45mg of the NEW pfizer nardil was very efficient for me, almost too efficient.
Now with the enteric coating/casules i can adjust dosages in like 3,7 mg steps and i have tons of space for increasing the dosage.
Hopefully my efforts of mimicking the old nardil will pay off in terms of needing less of a dosage and needing less sleep meds, too.Did anafranil poop out?
Are all MAOI banned in your country? Did you try selegiline yet? Well anyway, id go straight for the nardil if you can do this despite your countrys ignorance.
CheersLd
> You're so lucky that you're experienced Nardil efficacy before, so at least you know that is hope, real HOPE.
>
> My only moment of bliss, normalcy, whatever, was with Anafranil, but it was transient for a couple of times.That moments were the only good things that happen in a decade.I mean, I got married, I have a beautiful wife, a kind - she's an angel...but all these were good thing that I feel that happen in a dream.The Anafranil Days were rock solid memories.I want back that.
>
> If Germany which seems more open minded than other countries from UE, you had so much problems and you had to endure hell to get your hands on Nardil, for me it seems nearly impossible to have the chance to initiate an Phenelzine trial.Shrinks from my country jump from their chairs yelling "devil!" when they hear about MAOI's.
>
> Anyways, I hope I'll find some online pharma with your help, meantime i'll check again and again Google :)).
>
> I'm very curious about your trial, looking forward for you getting well.
Posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:54:52
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:50:44
I think a combo of aurorix, selegiline and neurontin might come close.. thats what i was considering. But its very pricey and it has one big drawback: its not the mother of all bombs, nardil :D
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:14:31
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 18, 2011, at 9:50:44
I can feel your impatience and anger/ frustration that things move so slow.I cant beleive what some of us do to make us a way on the road to recovery.I'ts much more simple to go and get some crack !You're really brave.
Unfortunately Maoi's in my country doesn't exist, like never happen.
Anafranil keeps me on a thin line between the black hole of despair and blah.I dunno if it's poop out but im not even close near normalcy.I guess I can't ask for much from clomipramine.
I tried selegiline for a few times and i was dissapointed.Mental energy-up, anxiety-waay up, depression untouched.On top of that I had a lot of problem with vascular constriction, cold extremities, shivering in the middle of summer.
Manerix is also a Maoi, so its banned.For me, the next step will be Nardil and Parnate if the first wont't work...
Cheers and thanks for help ;)!
Posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:23:12
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:14:31
thinking...how's life; one of the oldest AD, discovered by mistake and derived from a tuberculosis med, seems to be the future REAL antidepressant...
At least big pharmacy concerns should struggle to make safer and time release and with less side effects MAOI's
Posted by zonked on June 19, 2011, at 8:40:18
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by hopefullynow on June 18, 2011, at 17:14:31
> Unfortunately Maoi's in my country doesn't exist, like never happen.Curious, where do you live? Does your government's regulatory agency allow imports from other countries?
The last time I went to Mexico, I made certain to stock up on Xanax. (Tafil en Espanol.)
:-)
-z
Posted by Lamdage on June 19, 2011, at 13:08:47
In reply to Re: To Lamdage » hopefullynow, posted by zonked on June 19, 2011, at 8:40:18
I think it probably is allowed. Its allowed here in germany, too. But try finding a doctor who is willing to prescribe a med that isnt on the market here. They wont risk lawsuits or damage to their reputation or even (considering the degree of ignorance in this country): the loss of the doc license.
Btw hopefullynow:
I found this on the net:
Hungary import regulations:
--> Prescription required: NO !!
-->Import of medicine for personal use is subject to approval of the health ministry.
Idk what exactly this means. It might be worth a shot.
-->Prescription drugs should be no more than 3 months' supply. (this is pretty much in all european countries, but id calculate with the highest approved dosage for 3 months)
In germany you do need a prescription that needs to be attached to the parcel, so customs can check, so you may actually have an easier time getting your hands on nardil.All these regulations apply only for parcels that come from outside of the european union. Within the EU it really doesnt matter, because they arent even allowed to do custom controls of these parcels.
Since doctors here have the obligation to keep silence about their patients, i think once i found a MAOI experienced pdoc whom i feel comfortable with, i will open up to her/him and "confess" what im doing. I might as well tell the doc im on a daily regimen of cocaine, they must keep silence. If they give me a hard time about it i can leave on the spot. Tomorrow im seeing my general health practitioner and tell her whats going on. Hopefully will get a prescription for low dose nifedipine. She seems to be a nice gal otherwise i wouldnt talk to her about this sensitive issue.
Ld
> > Unfortunately Maoi's in my country doesn't exist, like never happen.
>
> Curious, where do you live? Does your government's regulatory agency allow imports from other countries?
>
> The last time I went to Mexico, I made certain to stock up on Xanax. (Tafil en Espanol.)
>
> :-)
>
> -z
Posted by Lamdage on June 19, 2011, at 13:23:53
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 19, 2011, at 13:08:47
Romania:
Prescription: No
Medicines intended for personal use do not require import permit, provided quantity is limited to one piece of each item.
Prescription drugs should be no more than 3 months' supply.
Non-prescription drugs should be limited to 5 pieces of each item.My bad! Looks like your good to go! One piece of each item is a bit of a pain, but all you need is to find a pharmacy with low shipping cost. According to this you dont need to limit your search to the EU
Posted by floatingbridge on June 19, 2011, at 13:47:53
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 19, 2011, at 13:23:53
Great slueth work!
fb
Posted by Lamdage on June 19, 2011, at 14:07:30
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 19, 2011, at 13:23:53
At this point i want to say a few words,
i will not help anyone doing any grey area things and id like to advise anyone trying this to know exactly what you are doing and find a supportive doctor if there is any possibility to do so!
If you handle it right its a safe med, but its very potent and the drug and food interactions can be fatal if dont know what youre doing.
I even believe to have heard something about eye drops being dangerous with Maoi. Research extensively about anything you put into or even on your body. Read labels on foods and know what ingredients are red flags.
The nifedipines purpose is not so you can have peace of mind and be careless.
If you take too much of a dosage or take it without having severely high blood pressure you can quite easily DIE from it. Consider wearing a medical ID bracelet for docs to know whats going on in case of emergency.
In one word do your homework if you really feel you need to do what im doing.No warranty that what ive written is complete. Im sure its not. There is alot of stuff to be aware of when taking an irreversible maoi.
Ok, enough preaching. sorry if i was too intense, i felt the need to do this
Posted by Lamdage on June 20, 2011, at 3:28:48
In reply to Re: To Lamdage » Lamdage, posted by floatingbridge on June 19, 2011, at 13:47:53
> Great slueth work!
>
> fbBehind enemy lines for you guys :P
Posted by Lamdage on June 20, 2011, at 14:24:11
In reply to Re: To Lamdage, posted by Lamdage on June 20, 2011, at 3:28:48
I feel depression coming and i think it might get ugly. Do you guys have any idea what i might take with a short half life against depression??
What about tryptophan and mucuna pruriens?? Sth that doesnt have much of a washout and thus can be taken until the very day i start nardil?Please help, if im unlucky i got scammed and will get the nardil by the end of this month. This means 10 days time to fall into a black hole.. i feel im on the verge of it.
Even thought about smoking pot..Ideas?
Posted by zonked on June 20, 2011, at 17:00:07
In reply to seriously what can i take with a short half life??, posted by Lamdage on June 20, 2011, at 14:24:11
> Please help, if im unlucky i got scammed and will get the nardil by the end of this month. This means 10 days time to fall into a black hole.. i feel im on the verge of it.
> Even thought about smoking pot..
>
> Ideas?SWIM suggests that, if SWIY doesn't have addictive tendencies, perhaps SWIY might have some unresolved back pain that might warrant a doctor's visit. If benzos aren't enough for SWIY, perhaps SWIY's doctor could prescribe a mild opiod like Vicodin or Norco to alleviate such pain.
-z
Posted by Lamdage on June 20, 2011, at 18:00:28
In reply to Re: seriously what can i take with a short half life?? » Lamdage, posted by zonked on June 20, 2011, at 17:00:07
>
> > Please help, if im unlucky i got scammed and will get the nardil by the end of this month. This means 10 days time to fall into a black hole.. i feel im on the verge of it.
> > Even thought about smoking pot..
> >
> > Ideas?
>
> SWIM suggests that, if SWIY doesn't have addictive tendencies, perhaps SWIY might have some unresolved back pain that might warrant a doctor's visit. If benzos aren't enough for SWIY, perhaps SWIY's doctor could prescribe a mild opiod like Vicodin or Norco to alleviate such pain.
>
> -zSwim doesnt like the idea of going to a doctor too much. Hes been to a doc today supposedly to get nifedipine, but swim sat there and was like what the heck is swim doing here!? Swim has access to nifedipine. Why would swim want to talk to some doc who has no clue of maoi?? Swim realized he was just seeking adult approval of what hes doing, seeking some authority person to cling on and to abuse swim again. Repetition compulsion. Luckily swim realized what he was doing and headed straight out the office with a mere "i cant take this anylonger" to end this kind of self abuse.
its not only about the anxiety, its both really. Swim might be able to get some kratom but it will take a few days. This may be a good idea though. Unfortunately, unlike opiods, kratom cant be taken at the same time with nardil.
I can take Tryptophan right away, you may find this funny, while nardil is banned tryptophan is available at the pharmacy.
What i have here, too is gingko biloba.. ill throw in a decent dosage beginning tomorrow morning and go back to 150 wellbutrin.I hate that nardil is not happening yet and this adds to my depression.
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